Bad luck or just silly play...

Gholimoli

Im getting knocked out in live tourneys lately sooner than I like.
Now I do make moves and some of them are donkey moves but mostly they are calculated and I don’t make them just for the same of it.
I strongly go with my reads and sometimes I tend to be wrong which will look my moves look like a play from a donkey.
Im particular when I get short stacked and there are still lots of players left I look for a situation where I can double up and I don’t really mind busting if the situation is good.
But lately because the results have not been good(mixture of bad play and bad luck ) im thinking maybe I should stop making moves all together and play tight/agro almost move free poker.
To give an example yesterday in the GJP 250 game:
Blinds are 100/200 and I have 6K left.
UTG goes all –in for 900 .
Flat call by UTG+1 .
One fold.
Flat call by another dude.
The action is to ne and I have 3 players yet to act behind me.
I have 9Ts and I know nither of the flat callers have a strong hand having played with them before and everything else lead me to believe that their holding was very marginal.
Now I could have just folded this and let it go, or just flat call(even though this would invite a move behind me often).but I decided to make a move here and I pumped it up to 3200 or so .
BB who is a very loose but not stupid (as in he wouldn’t do this with out a hand) player goes over the top and shoves it all in and its folded back to me and I fold.
BB has AA and that’s that.
Now I told every one at the table that I had QQ as I pretended to be thinking about the call.
Few hands later after posting a few blinds im down to 2500 and after making a raise with AJ I call a reraise and lose a race to TT.
Then later on I was thinking maybe I should have just let the 9T go and wait.
So what you all think?

Bandana boy

I was tempted to post silly without reading your post
Ahem
But after reading it i like this move a lot and use it probably too much in my own game
Couple of concerns
3 more players can be tough to get through and if any of them like a gamble ie would call here with AJ AT KQ or know you well enough to make a move with those kind of hands etc then i would be worried BB with AA is just unlucky

And not as concerning but as this is going to a showdown you will not be able to make a move like this for a while and if all goes to plan you are still likely to get no extra chips from the move even if you are getting great odds this might be exposing yourself to some questionable calls at at time when you need to aquire some chips wether you have a hand or not

5starpool

Yep, 'fancy' play has got me into trouble too recently and in the past, but I think tight ABC poker will be too boring for you

spectre

I would be reluctant to make the move considering there is three players left to act. Obviously, It is far less risky if you are BB.

Other problem is that this move is becoming more and more common. I seem to be seeing this move being made in tournaments a lot lately. I think every half decent tourney player has read HOH, which goes to great lengths to promote the move.

It is a fantastic result for you if you do get heads up with the all-in guy though. This may also help you to get action on your big hands later.

Hectorjelly

If im counting right the pot ended at 14k (if you called) and it was only 2.8k for you to call, I dont think you can pass that. Against AA and 44 you will win 22% of the time. If he has AK (would he fold that?) then you will win 35% of the time. You only need 20% equity to call.

Poker & Pints

GM...let me ask you this question back: Are you making moves solely on your read of the cards? From what it sounds in your example is that you made a move because you thought the lads had marginal holdings? Are you possibly making moves against people that don't understand the move or even know that it is a move? With people yet to act what do you really want to happen?

I know this is hindsight, but if you put the lads on marginal hands, then there is still the possibility of a really strong hand out there, so why make a move at that point? In this instance a smooth call seems just as good. If the AA raises, it may not be as big and you can get in for value to see the flop, then you make a move.

Now personally, I think you can outplay quite a few players post flop, so why not work that angle a little more?? Rather than trying the tight route.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

If im counting right the pot ended at 14k (if you called) and it was only 2.8k for you to call, I dont think you can pass that. Against AA and 44 you will win 22% of the time. If he has AK (would he fold that?) then you will win 35% of the time. You only need 20% equity to call.

i think his range was QQ+ and he would prob flat call AK here.
i was prob getting the odds to call but i felt with about 3K left and blinds at 100/200 i could still play a bit .
i more concerned whether the more move making players amongst you would make the move given the situation ?

Gholimoli

Poker & Pints wrote:

GM...let me ask you this question back: Are you making moves solely on your read of the cards? From what it sounds in your example is that you made a move because you thought the lads had marginal holdings? Are you possibly making moves against people that don't understand the move or even know that it is a move? With people yet to act what do you really want to happen?

I know this is hindsight, but if you put the lads on marginal hands, then there is still the possibility of a really strong hand out there, so why make a move at that point? In this instance a smooth call seems just as good. If the AA raises, it may not be as big and you can get in for value to see the flop, then you make a move.

Now personally, I think you can outplay quite a few players post flop, so why not work that angle a little more?? Rather than trying the tight route.

I hate a flat call here.
What does my flat call suggest here about my hand? That I have feck all and am in it just for value. also with adding more to the pot im inviting others behind me to make the move to which I will have to oblige and fold.
Even if I don’t get raised behind me I will be inviting others behind me to call and I will be in mid position post flop and unless I hit the flop hard I don’t think I will have much chance of taking it down post flop.
As to why I made the move perhaps I should have explained in my first post.
UTG range is wide open here so that’s that.
The first caller could potentially be flat calling with big hand but I know him and he raises with a big hand in this situation almost every time.

The next flat caller loves to play any suited cards any A ,any two broadway and is very weak tight.

Now the action is to me and there is 3K in the pot.
I know I have more than 80% chance of getting rid of both of those players with a raise.
Also my raise here would indicate significant strength to any one behind me to an extent where only QQ+ would even thinking about putting money in this pot.
I mean if I was in this situation and some 1 made that move I would fold QQ every time unless it was Mr.Pillowtalk making the raise(or my self but I cant be in two positions) .
So effectively with my raise I im getting HU with UTG and my hand can do well against his range HU.
unless ofcourse BB wakes up with AA.

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

i think his range was QQ+ and he would prob flat call AK here.
i was prob getting the odds to call but i felt with about 3K left and blinds at 100/200 i could still play a bit .
i more concerned whether the more move making players amongst you would make the move given the situation ?

You were prepared to gamble for more than half your stack when you were pretty sure you had the worst hand but could get into a situation with a positive expectation, so I dont see why you fold now when you are sure of one.

I think this move is too risky considering you need to risk half your stack and the reward isnt that great.

ollyk1

5starpool wrote:

Yep, 'fancy' play has got me into trouble too recently and in the past, but I think tight ABC poker will be too boring for you

LOL as recently as Friday night as I recall.

5starpool

ollyk1 wrote:

LOL as recently as Friday night as I recall.

Well if it wasn't one of those limp calls with monsters that I ran into it would have worked. Still amazed that my cracking hand didn't function correctly though.

ollyk1

I think you have to call the push Gholi with the price you are getting.

As regards the move itself I think you do it too often. Nothing wrong with it occasionally and when there is one limper and you are last or second last to act and you have above average reads on the players (as Dom will tell you the odd person likes to flat call with a big hand as well as with a marginal hand in this spot so you need to know the difference).

Bottom line I feel you are often too active early on in tournies making these moves against weak/gamble type players who seem to like to call you. You can identify plenty of good spots in generally poor standard games and yet you make these higher risk moves that as HJ fairly points out aren't being rewarded particularly well.

These days I don't play marginal hands as much as I used to and I've noticed myself dropping pocket pairs in mid/late positions and not racing with open pushers who are shortstacked as much as I used to. Why? Because I'm putting my tournie life on the line (or risk being crippled say) when I know if I stick to my bread and butter play I'll probably make the FT and get a good chance to go for the big money without being in nearly as much risk.

I think you play a style of tournie poker that is suited to big fields and winning very occasionally. Small field tournies in Dublin you should be making the FT 1 in 3 or 4 times on average. If you are not you have to ask yourself questions about what you are doing.

RoundTower

this is the kind of situation where people "don't like to go out calling", which is very bad thinking. You really have to call instantly once the guy reraises. The original reraise is OK so long as you are planning to call a push, but pushing/folding is probably better.

ollyk1

Hectorjelly wrote:

You were prepared to gamble for more than half your stack when you were pretty sure you had the worst hand but could get into a situation with a positive expectation, so I dont see why you fold now when you are sure of one.

I think this move is too risky considering you need to risk half your stack and the reward isnt that great.

To be fair he was hoping to gamble for only 900 into a 3900 pot! He wasn't looking for no other caller lol

Hectorjelly

ollyk1 wrote:

To be fair he was hoping to gamble for only 900 into a 3900 pot! He wasn't looking for no other caller lol

When you bet 3k you risk 3k (assuming there are other active players with at least 3k still in the hand)!

PiperT

You have 6k with blinds at 100/200. You have 20 rounds of the table in chips, action before you (x3) and players still to act (x3). I don't get involved with 9Ts. Nothing wrong with the move if conditions are right. Let them at it and wait for a better spot. JMHO

ollyk1

RoundTower wrote:

this is the kind of situation where people "don't like to go out calling", which is very bad thinking. You really have to call instantly once the guy reraises. The original reraise is OK so long as you are planning to call a push, but pushing/folding is probably better.

I gotta agree with this. You have to call an all-in push so why not maximise the chances others fold.

Gholimoli

ollyk1 wrote:

I think you have to call the push Gholi with the price you are getting.

As regards the move itself I think you do it too often. Nothing wrong with it occasionally and when there is one limper and you are last or second last to act and you have above average reads on the players (as Dom will tell you the odd person likes to flat call with a big hand as well as with a marginal hand in this spot so you need to know the difference).

Bottom line I feel you are often too active early on in tournies making these moves against weak/gamble type players who seem to like to call you. You can identify plenty of good spots in generally poor standard games and yet you make these higher risk moves that as HJ fairly points out aren't being rewarded particularly well.

These days I don't play marginal hands as much as I used to and I've noticed myself dropping pocket pairs in mid/late positions and not racing with open pushers who are shortstacked as much as I used to. Why? Because I'm putting my tournie life on the line (or risk being crippled say) when I know if I stick to my bread and butter play I'll probably make the FT and get a good chance to go for the big money without being in nearly as much risk.

I think you play a style of tournie poker that is suited to big fields and winning very occasionally. Small field tournies in Dublin you should be making the FT 1 in 3 or 4 times on average. If you are not you have to ask yourself questions about what you are doing.

totally agree with this.

ollyk1

Hectorjelly wrote:

When you bet 3k you risk 3k (assuming there are other active players with at least 3k still in the hand)!

I know HJ but thats not how Gholi sees these things!! lol

marius

Gholi,

Have to say that I really dont like this move.

In your absolutely best case scenario you will get HU with UTG where you feel your hand will perform well against his range. I would say you are about 50/50 against his range, so you are effectively putting 3200 into a pot of 3000 to get heads up in a situation where you might be 50/50. Obviously if everything goes perfectly you are only going to be risking 900 for the pot of 3000 but I dont think that it is worth risking the initial 3200.

How many times do you have to get this move through for it to be profitable?
How many times will one of the three to act actually wake up with a hand? How many times will one of the two limpers be trapping with a hand?
How many times will you lose heads-up anyway?

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

this is the kind of situation where people "don't like to go out calling", which is very bad thinking. You really have to call instantly once the guy reraises. The original reraise is OK so long as you are planning to call a push, but pushing/folding is probably better.

totally agree with this as well.
i knew i sould have called there with the odds on offer but didnt want to go out with that hand and thought i could still play with 3K stack.
results are out.donkey play by me.
next time i play live im going to be a rock .

Bandana boy

Gholimoli wrote:

next time i play live im going to be a rock .

I will take that bet

connie147

Gholi,
You make a lot of your chips by making people put down hands against you which is good play on your behalf. But in this situation, if your plan worked out and you got HU with UTG:

1)--Theres no guarantee your hand will take down this pot.

2)--Whether it does or it doesnt , your moves are gonna be curtailed as long as your gonna be left on this table. You have 30bb,there was no need to get involved here at all. If your hand is shown here, you'll have to depend on getting decent cards for a while of which theres no guarantee.

3)You have more to act behind you.

I dont see the advantage of this move where if it gets through, your cards are going to a showdown.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

Im getting knocked out in live tourneys lately sooner than I like.
Now I do make moves and some of them are donkey moves but mostly they are calculated and I don’t make them just for the same of it.
I strongly go with my reads and sometimes I tend to be wrong which will look my moves look like a play from a donkey.
Im particular when I get short stacked and there are still lots of players left I look for a situation where I can double up and I don’t really mind busting if the situation is good.
But lately because the results have not been good(mixture of bad play and bad luck ) im thinking maybe I should stop making moves all together and play tight/agro almost move free poker.
To give an example yesterday in the GJP 250 game:
Blinds are 100/200 and I have 6K left.
UTG goes all –in for 900 .
Flat call by UTG+1 .
One fold.
Flat call by another dude.
The action is to ne and I have 3 players yet to act behind me.
I have 9Ts and I know nither of the flat callers have a strong hand having played with them before and everything else lead me to believe that their holding was very marginal.
Now I could have just folded this and let it go, or just flat call(even though this would invite a move behind me often).but I decided to make a move here and I pumped it up to 3200 or so .
BB who is a very loose but not stupid (as in he wouldn’t do this with out a hand) player goes over the top and shoves it all in and its folded back to me and I fold.
BB has AA and that’s that.
Now I told every one at the table that I had QQ as I pretended to be thinking about the call.
Few hands later after posting a few blinds im down to 2500 and after making a raise with AJ I call a reraise and lose a race to TT.
Then later on I was thinking maybe I should have just let the 9T go and wait.
So what you all think?

How did you manage to fold 9T there? Plus I think you would have been better just psuhing rather than raising over 50% of your stack

Poker & Pints

Gholimoli wrote:

I hate a flat call here.
.

So my response was not so much in regards to the hand. I think differently than you in this case...What I am trying to address is the bigger question of you changing to tight as you said....I am suggesting you try to outplay post flop rather than preflop. Again, just a suggestion...if you don't think you want to try it, then don't.

fuzzbox

Once you make the reraise, you should call the shove.

Other than that, its pretty .... meh.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Once you make the reraise, you should call the shove.

Other than that, its pretty .... meh.

come on Fuzz you can say donkey if u like ...dont be shy now

Hitman Actual

I'll say it straight Gholi, I hate the move with the 9T. I think it's a mistake, and the local tourneys are so tight that one big mistake usually kills your chances of going deep.

When I started playing in the Merrion (way back!), I played sensible (i.e. boring) poker, and made the FT about one in three/four times, which compares well with Olly's estimate. But when I got adventurous and started trying to force things, my results really suffered. This is going to sound boring, but 'fancy' play really doesn't work well in Dublin. For one thing, the standard of the other players is generally poor, so your plays just go over their head. If they're going to get involved against you, it doesn't matter what you try and make them think; they will get involved, end of story.

Honestly, I think grinding is the way to go in the local scene. It's boring, but you really can't afford multiple mistakes.

Hectorjelly

lenny_leonard wrote:

I'll say it straight Gholi, I hate the move with the 9T. I think it's a mistake, and the local tourneys are so tight that one big mistake usually kills your chances of going deep.

When I started playing in the Merrion (way back!), I played sensible (i.e. boring) poker, and made the FT about one in three/four times, which compares well with Olly's estimate. But when I got adventurous and started trying to force things, my results really suffered. This is going to sound boring, but 'fancy' play really doesn't work well in Dublin. For one thing, the standard of the other players is generally poor, so your plays just go over their head. If they're going to get involved against you, it doesn't matter what you try and make them think; they will get involved, end of story.

Honestly, I think grinding is the way to go in the local scene. It's boring, but you really can't afford multiple mistakes.

I agree with all this, allthough to be fair Gholis mistake in this hand wasnt trying to push someone off a medium strength hand!

Atlas_IRL

keep it simple in your next tournie and you should go further, most of the time if im gone early in a tournie its because im trying to bluff players or playing fancy, try playing tight agressive and you should FT a lot more.

Maybe also try have a strategy about what your going to do before you play, i FT the Merrion 5 times in a row b4 it closed by just always keeping above 10 X BB untill the final table. Prob sounds stupid but it worked for me.

Gholimoli

lenny_leonard wrote:

I'll say it straight Gholi, I hate the move with the 9T. I think it's a mistake, and the local tourneys are so tight that one big mistake usually kills your chances of going deep.

When I started playing in the Merrion (way back!), I played sensible (i.e. boring) poker, and made the FT about one in three/four times, which compares well with Olly's estimate. But when I got adventurous and started trying to force things, my results really suffered. This is going to sound boring, but 'fancy' play really doesn't work well in Dublin. For one thing, the standard of the other players is generally poor, so your plays just go over their head. If they're going to get involved against you, it doesn't matter what you try and make them think; they will get involved, end of story.

Honestly, I think grinding is the way to go in the local scene. It's boring, but you really can't afford multiple mistakes.

Agree with all of this Lenny and shall come to my senses in the next game.