Jesus Camp

Zombrex

This looks rather scary ...

http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/

... but at the same time is this just a fundamentalist stream within side mainstream American Christianity? Or is it something that is reaching more mainstream, and as such something to be more worried about

Dirk Gently

These groups depress the hell out of me. I saw a few familiar faces in that clip but can't think of their names right now. I think they should be jailed for letting that kid go around with such a shocking mullet, never mind all the hate they preach. I'm sure one of the blokes in that clip is from that school where they mass produce religious nuts specifically for the purpose of becoming politicians / lawyers / judges. They are linked with the Republican Party and supply most of their political apprentices in the white house. Sorry I can't think of the people’s names or the name of the university off the top of my head but I'll post again when I check up on it.

In short, this is a growing trend in the states from what I've been reading and it's very frightening. The U.S. is moving more and more towards a right wing religious state all the time and they're not afraid to preach hate and violence. You would think in this day and age groups like this would be a thing of the past. Whatever about religion in general still going strong in this age, it's the fanatical stuff like these Christian nuts that really depress me the most. What's peoples excuse for falling for this sort of thing, it's not like Muslim extremism which can be linked to a sense of oppression by the west, and some extremists can exploit that sense of oppression to recruit more people. This is supposedly well off and well educated people living in an information society. No excuse.

5uspect

Its almost like the white millitias in South Africa...

Isn't the guy who says "if the evangelicals vote they decise the election" near the end Dawkins' "friend" from the Root of All Evil?

Zillah

Thats one of the more upsetting things I've seen recently.

aidan_walsh

These groups depress the hell out of me.

Thats one of the more upsetting things I've seen recently.

They feel just the same about you, I'm sure.

it's not like Muslim extremism which can be linked to a sense of oppression by the west, and some extremists can exploit that sense of oppression to recruit more people.

Why would Muslim extremists feel more oppressed by Western values that don't conform with their faith than Christian extremists?

This is supposedly well off and well educated people living in an information society. No excuse.

That has nothing to do with it.

MrJoeSoap

The "There are two types of people in the world" reminded me of Donnie Darko and the 'lifeline'.

Straight away you can see that the camp is basing itself against something else, and the disgusting mention of Palestine "putting grenades" in the childrens hands definitely evokes something deep inside me. The children look brainwashed, it definitely doesn't sit comfortably with me.

"This means war" ???

MrJoeSoap

5uspect wrote:

Isn't the guy who says "if the evangelicals vote they decise the election" near the end Dawkins' "friend" from the Root of All Evil?

Yeah thats him alright.

Zillah

aidan_walsh wrote:

They feel just the same about you, I'm sure.

I'm sorry, but you just gave the slightly more grown up version of "I know you are but what am I?"

They may feel all sorts of things about me, but one thing they can't feel about me is disgust at the fact that I've set up horrendous brain washing camps for children while extolling them to be religious fanatic warriors.

Guess why?

Why would Muslim extremists feel more oppressed by Western values that don't conform with their faith than Christian extremists?

You appear to have no idea whatsoever what he meant.

That has nothing to do with it.

Yes it does, you've just gotten confused.

ApeXaviour

Zillah wrote:

They may feel all sorts of things about me, but one thing they can't feel about me is disgust at the fact that I've set up horrendous brain washing camps for children while extolling them to be religious fanatic warriors.

Guess why?

lmao

It does look pretty damn scary. The movement certainly seems anti-progressive and self delusional. The movie however looks absolutely fascinating. I hope it is what it claims; a proper documentary without punditry of any sort. No doubt though that what I will interpret as the sanity coming through, these nuts will only see as evil resistance to the true cause that must be overcome.

I find the hardest part to accept is their pure and utter blindness to the base hypocracy of coalescing violence with christian teachings...

Zillah

ApeXaviour wrote:

I find the hardest part to accept is their pure and utter blindness to the base hypocracy of coalescing violence with christian teachings...

I'm fairly sure they meant "warriors" as in, spreading Christianity, rather than literally taking up weapons and killing people.

ApeXaviour

Zillah wrote:

I'm fairly sure they meant "warriors" as in, spreading Christianity, rather than literally taking up weapons and killing people.

Hmmm yes.. their glorious crusade. While they may only admit to themselves this more PC meaning, the choice of words still isn't inspiring. Also I've little doubt evangelists are among the most vehement supporters of a warmongering (current?) US/Israel foreign policy.

athena 2000

Here's a link to an indiwire story to flesh out the background of this documentary film.

http://www.indiewire.com/people/2006/05/beyond_the_ideo.html

UU

That is really scary and disturbing. :mad: It is just like what Richard Dawkins spoke of in "The Root To All Evil". That religion is like a virus like infects the minds of the young. It has infected those children. Those fundamentalist Christians have deep psychological problems. Those churches aren't reiligions, they are cults, just like Scientology. This sort of sick funadmentalism is deeply embedded in the majority of the American population and is rapidly creeping into our societies of Europe too.

We cannot let them take power, they are a threat to rational thought, free thinkers and liberalism. This blind faith is truly a disease.

robindch

Another short reviewish thingy of the flim is here:

http://journal.davidbyrne.com/2006/08/american_madras.html

stevejazzx

Wicknight wrote:

This looks rather scary ...

http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/

... but at the same time is this just a fundamentalist stream within side mainstream American Christianity? Or is it something that is reaching more mainstream, and as such something to be more worried about

Oh my god, no wait, oh my lack of belief in a supreme deity.

They want to turn the U.S. into the "Christian" version of Iran or Saudi Arabia. A theocracy. The separation between church and state, already shaky with Bush in charge, is under full frontal assault by this bunch — and they are well organized, too.

This is scary stuff no doubt. In my honest opinion the adults in charge should be charged with child abuse. The childern are so young that have not yet the ability to question such things. Thier ugly brainwashing will lead them to hate also, as they will invariably view negatively others in their community who are not as <mentally> religous as they are.
The possession scene is evidence of the kids cooperation on even the most complex levels. The psychological damage of this camp will ruin the life of every child involved. As they grow older and the cold reality of life slowly uncovers them there'll be nothing left but bitterness and denial, a sad fate. Dawkins is indeed on the money when he says that religon is virus, perhaps he should've said pandemic though.

nitrogen

I hate it when I hear kids of 7/8 say, I found Jesus again when I was 5. They should be out playing games with other children. It really is cruel that parents put their kids through these camps.

I thought I'd seen it all in Dawkin's second part of Root of all Evil but this is nuts!

A few desert cults infect the world with their ideas, yet 2000 years later there are lunacy camps like these.

UU

Look, America is just nuts!!!

Seriously, I was talking to an american man in the Unitarian church I attend about where he lives and he admitted that 70% of Americans are nuts. Those fanatics are very clever people, they know where the "raw meat" lies - in the gullible brains of unsceptical children. It isn't difficult to brainwash the average child. I think it is child cruelty and yet it isn't classified as it and sickos like that bitch Becky Fischer in the video and Fred Phelps included get away with shït.

Did you know that America has "De-homosexualising Camps" also? My friend is gay and his mother is a freaky Christian who, if she found out his sexuality, would ship him off to one of these pyscho places in the US.

Instead of these kids going to summer camp with other kids of different cultures and faiths, they are confined in these places of false hopes where their minds get corrupted.

robindch

> I think it is child cruelty

I must say that I agree with stevejazzx and say that this isn't only cruelty, but fully-documented, cold, calculated, political child abuse. Actually, I think it's arguably worse than physical child abuse, because at least you can be prosecuted for that, but this brainf*ck stuff?

Naaah, jail 'em and throw away the key.

scrattletrap

That's freaky but not wholly surprising coming from America.

robindch

> The possession scene is evidence of the kids cooperation on even
> the most complex levels.

Not sure which scene you're referring to (there are a couple on the trailer and on the film's homepage), but what looks like possession is likely to be a simulated epileptic seizure, or as it's understood by charismatics, instances of extreme Speaking in Tongues or the related Toronto Blessing.

Has here anybody been to any of these religious knees-ups here in Ireland? There used to be an Irish Evangelical Conference every year, where one or two thousand would turn up and do this kind of thing for a weekend, just a bit milder. Saw it once; scary stuff, but I don't know if they're still having them... anybody know any news?

Dades

Just back from 10 days hols - and this is the first thead I read?!
I'm disappointed nobody here fixed the world while I was away.

robindch wrote:

Has here anybody been to any of these religious knees-ups here in Ireland? There used to be an Irish Evangelical Conference every year, where one or two thousand would turn up and do this kind of thing for a weekend, just a bit milder.

I'm all for an conference infiltration from A/A forum regs if we find one.

stevejazzx

stevjazzx wrote:

> The possession scene is evidence of the kids cooperation on even
> the most complex levels.

robindich wrote:

Not sure which scene you're referring to (there are a couple on the trailer and on the film's homepage), but what looks like possession is likely to be a simulated epileptic seizure, or as it's understood by charismatics, instances of extreme Speaking in Tongues or the related Toronto Blessing.

Well, a liitle background on what I was thinking. Whenever I see someone at one of these psychic shows going on stage and instantly coming under the control the psychic, I become very sceptical, no wait, scrath sceptical, angry. Obviously certain people feign their trance like state just to go along with the show. Afterwards they're likely to say 'I'm not sure if I was fully under his control or not...' because sad people like to bring some aspect of illusion into their life even if it means being econmic with the truth.
There is a set of complex psychological ideas happening during this time that most adults enter into knowingly but their weakness of character makes them indulge in the half truth of really having something special happen to them i.e that once they were put in a trance by a powerful magician.
Now we transgress to all things religous and the same thing. Some enigmatic preacher claims to be saving people at a rate of ten a day and people turn up and start falling on floor suddenly possessed by Jesus who has entered them and is cleansing them of unholy impurities etc. Then later whilst munching a double cheesburger they tell their friends "yeah you know I'm so lucky, so speacial because today, Jesus saved my life".
Whats actually happening is the very basic psychological need for recognition, an urge to conform with authority (be it the magician or the church leader) to show figures in power thier cooperation for general acknowledgement.

Now when i saw the clip of the movie 'Jesus camp' I saw some kids feinging what looked like one of these religous ceremonies where demons are cast out and the child is saved (the voiceover at that moment is 'if evangelicals vote.....) and when i saw this it hit me that the brainwashing and conditioning was so severe that the childern were playing along even at the most complex psychological levels. This is proof of child abuse in my opinion. The situation has so far gone that the childern are taking on traits of complete complicity, it's as bad as the sexualisation of childern imo.
Shocking, movements like this should ended by the authorities, there are laws against cults and this clearly comes within those confines.

robindich wrote:

Has here anybody been to any of these religious knees-ups here in Ireland? There used to be an Irish Evangelical Conference every year, where one or two thousand would turn up and do this kind of thing for a weekend, just a bit milder. Saw it once; scary stuff, but I don't know if they're still having them... anybody know any news?

[/quote]

Wow.....where was that held?

5uspect

stevejazzx wrote:

This is proof of child abuse in my opinion. The situation is so far gone that childern are taking these traits of complete complicity, it's as bad as the sexualisation of childern imo.

Well said.

Give us a boy and we will return you a man, a citizen of his country and a child of God

At least the Jesuits are honest about their intentions.

ThrownAway

About being hypnotized ...

I was always very skeptical about the whole thing but last year I actually saw someone I knew who is very quiet go insane on stage. I doubt that they were just going along with the show really since I knew this person for years. With that said I'm not one hundred percent certain about wether or not it's real. The day I'll get hypnotized is the day I'll believe. Until then I'm not sure but I don't think you can relate hypnosis with those children in the video. Those children have had their parents ect. brain wash them since they were born. People who have been under hypnosis would, under no circumstances do the stuff they did fuled by the psychological need for recognition alone. I can see where you're coming from though.

It all seems crazy to me but it's not exactly causing the children harm. They're happy or at least seem that way. They don't know any better just like anyone else. What one person might consider abuse another may not.

stevejazzx

ThrownAway wrote:

About being hypnotized ...


It all seems crazy to me but it's not exactly causing the children harm. They're happy or at least seem that way. They don't know any better just like anyone else. What one person might consider abuse another may not.

Years of extreme psychological conditioning causes vulnerable and innocent childern no harm? How?

ApeXaviour

ThrownAway wrote:

About being hypnotized ...

I was always very skeptical about the whole thing but last year I actually saw someone I knew who is very quiet go insane on stage. I doubt that they were just going along with the show really since I knew this person for years. With that said I'm not one hundred percent certain about wether or not it's real. The day I'll get hypnotized is the day I'll believe.

A note on hypnotism. It is real. Though what it is may differ than what your idea of it is.

A hypnotised person is in a slightly different state of consciousness where their conscious rational mind has taken a backseat. Hence they more open to suggestion. The subconscious mind has no embarrassment, nor a sense of humour, it is also a lot less rational. The suggestion must however be something that does not disagree with their fundamental beliefs. For instance you cannot hypnotise a die-hard republican to deface the tri-colour. Nor can you hypnotise most people to harm other people/themselves. You can also not hypnotise somebody against their will. While the person is in this state of consciousness they tend to be completely aware and can come out from it at any stage. It's very similar to someone in a meditative state. So hypnosis is a pretty harmless and safe practice once the "subject" knows this.

The reason people do such embarassing things for a stage hypnotist is a willingness to entertain. You are aware of everything you are doing. And on a fundamental level, you don't believe what the hypnotist is telling you as truth (that your shoe is really a phone, that the audience are naked etc). But you play along because it is suggested that you do and your rational mind is not taking charge. You lose shyness, inhibition or anything that would normally have you bursting out laughing at what you're doing. It is odd however, you lose time (you think it was maybe 20 minutes when it was 90 etc) and some people, if they chose, may not remember what occured. So you see it allows you a lot of control over your own mind, where a hypnotist is merely guiding you not controlling. Hence the evolution of hypnotherapy but I wont get into that.

Brainwashing is different. It's about repetition, re-education, mystical manipulation (seeing others being "healed") and much more. In a sense I suppose that the possessions or whatever is meant to be happening when that kid is epo-ing on the floor could be like a form of stage hypnotism. A manifestation of the willingness to do what is expected of him. However the belief that they are actually being touched by an angel (or whatever) is purely brainwashing. You cannot change people's beliefs with hypnosis, just habits and you cannot use hypnotic triggers to make people do anything they really don't want to.

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

Saw it once; scary stuff, but I don't know if they're still having them... anybody know any news?

Many many years ago (1980s) when the Charismatics were big in Dublin the girlfriend's ma decided that I was a good candidate. I decided to go along to one of the meetings and was absolutely amazed by a whole room (60-80) all babbling away in tongues. Did the whole thing, had them pray over me, welcome me as a lost sheep.
I found the whole thing to be very forced. The big warm smiles and attentiveness to my every need were all just products of the movement. They believed what they taught and I just left them too it. No bad feelings, and did not see anything to get up in arms about. It was just not for me at that time.

pH

ApeXaviour wrote:

A note on hypnotism. It is real. Though what it is may differ than what your idea of it is.

Hypnotism is not real in any meaningful sense. In no way is it a different state of conciousness. The best description of hypnosis is 'play acting', though the more academic can use phrases like 'learned social behavior'.

You use the phrase 'slightly different state of consciousness where their conscious rational mind has taken a backseat' - well yes - but only in the same was as watching TV is a slightly different state of conciousness to driving a car.

In no way does hypnotism make anyone more suggestible. The subject decides to play along and may make himself more open to suggestion, but that has nothing to do to hypnotism.

http://www.morgenwelt.de/futureframe/000703-skeptics-hypnosis.htm

stevejazzx

ApeXaviour wrote:

A note on hypnotism. It is real. Though what it is may differ than what your idea of it is.

A hypnotised person is in a slightly different state of consciousness where their conscious rational mind has taken a backseat. Hence they more open to suggestion. The subconscious mind has no embarrassment, nor a sense of humour, it is also a lot less rational. The suggestion must however be something that does not disagree with their fundamental beliefs. For instance you cannot hypnotise a die-hard republican to deface the tri-colour. Nor can you hypnotise most people to harm other people/themselves. You can also not hypnotise somebody against their will. While the person is in this state of consciousness they tend to be completely aware and can come out from it at any stage. It's very similar to someone in a meditative state. So hypnosis is a pretty harmless and safe practice once the "subject" knows this.

The reason people do such embarassing things for a stage hypnotist is a willingness to entertain. You are aware of everything you are doing. And on a fundamental level, you don't believe what the hypnotist is telling you as truth (that your shoe is really a phone, that the audience are naked etc). But you play along because it is suggested that you do and your rational mind is not taking charge. You lose shyness, inhibition or anything that would normally have you bursting out laughing at what you're doing. It is odd however, you lose time (you think it was maybe 20 minutes when it was 90 etc) and some people, if they chose, may not remember what occured. So you see it allows you a lot of control over your own mind, where a hypnotist is merely guiding you not controlling. Hence the evolution of hypnotherapy but I wont get into that.

Brainwashing is different. It's about repetition, re-education, mystical manipulation (seeing others being "healed") and much more. In a sense I suppose that the possessions or whatever is meant to be happening when that kid is epo-ing on the floor could be like a form of stage hypnotism. A manifestation of the willingness to do what is expected of him. However the belief that they are actually being touched by an angel (or whatever) is purely brainwashing. You cannot change people's beliefs with hypnosis, just habits and you cannot use hypnotic triggers to make people do anything they really don't want to.

The cpmparison I made earlier was not between hypnotism and brainwashing/conditioning but between hynoptism and the religous ceremonies where demons are cast out and people flop about on the floor pretending to be possessed.

robindch

> [robindch] Saw it once; scary stuff, but I don't know if they're still having them... anybody know any news?
> [stevejazzx] Wow.....where was that held?
> [The Atheist] I'm all for an conference infiltration from A/A forum regs if we find one.

The one I was at was up in the Mosney center, I suppose in around 1998 or something like that. I was invited by a friend of mine who had fallen in with a group of Irish-American charismatics living in Kerry, and as I'd never seen one of these things before, decided to pop along. As I said, it frightened the daylights out of me -- something like a Nuremberg rally taking place on the lower decks of the Titanic, with a bit of Waco thrown in. Never saw anything like it before or since, thankfully.

The only national conferencey-thing that I can find news about on the web is this one:

http://www.ccr-ireland.org/conference.html

...which happened back in June. I'm sure there'll be one next year -- anybody else on for a quick visit?

ApeXaviour

pH wrote:

Hypnotism is not real in any meaningful sense.

Is stage hypnotism not entertaining? Is hypnotherapy to break habits not useful? These are meaningful in my book. It is not real in any mystical, mythical (mind control) or paranormal sense, it's still real.

pH wrote:

The best description of hypnosis is 'play acting', though the more academic can use phrases like 'learned social behavior'.

Play acting, doing what you think is expected of you for entertainment. I don't disagree with this in a stage hypnosis sense. Learned social behaviour is different than play acting.

pH wrote:

You use the phrase 'slightly different state of consciousness where their conscious rational mind has taken a backseat' - well yes - but only in the same was as watching TV is a slightly different state of conciousness to driving a car.

Agreed. If you're engrossed in a movie your brain-wave patterns will be similar to that of a hypnotic state. This is why you can negate the many unrealistic plot aspects of most movies. Your rational mind is not constantly criticising, you are more open to suggestion.
This alpha-state (as categorised in EEG) brainwave pattern is also present when somebody is daydreaming or say really relaxed whilst lying in a hammock.

pH wrote:

In no way does hypnotism make anyone more suggestible.

You're correct it doesn't. But it certainly facilitates a willing person to become more suggestible. Your own link states that a person in a state of hypnosis is characterised by high suggestibility! Granted it is one of many methods to do this, as there are other methods of inducing arm and body catalepsy. But this works for both so why fault it?

pH, IMO you're not really disagreeing with anything apart from the semantics of what I've said, but you're phrasing it as if you are.

stevejazzx wrote:

The cpmparison I made earlier was not between hypnotism and brainwashing/conditioning but between hynoptism and the religous ceremonies where demons are cast out and people flop about on the floor pretending to be possessed.

That's fair enough, I was referring to Thrownaways comments though.

Dirk Gently

There's a bit of a discussion going on about Jesus camp over on this forum for anyone who's interested.

A bit of variety in the views expressed, not all against the camp, with some supporting it to varying degrees. Might be a bit more interesting than our thread as there are a lot of American posters and it gives a slightly better picture of the American viewpoint on religious fundamentalism.

Dirk Gently

On a related note I came across this article today.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State today blasted the House Judiciary Committee’s approval of a bill that would make it more difficult for Americans to challenge church-state violations in court.

The so-called “Public Expression of Religion Act” targets those who stand up to church-state infringements by government officials. The measure, H.R. 2679, denies legal fees and out-of-pocket expenses to plaintiffs who win lawsuits under the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause, which bans the government from promoting religion.

Full aritcle can be read Here