A solid arguent for chosing cash games over tournaments

NickyOD

Here is a database where you can look up your oponents overall winnings on online tournaments. Unfortuantely it doesn't have party poker OR Ultimate bet so I can impress you all with my stats and I'm down about $200 in stars. What's interesting aboutt he database is the over all profit made by some of the TLB leaders on each site.

Many don't make much at all. Rooney_Dives has only returned a $9K profit overall. Riverloser who is one of the highest ranked online tournament players has only made $19K on stars in over 1300 tournaments. While $19K is nothing to be sniffed at, when you look at the hourly rate there is no question that cash games are the way forward for anyone wanting to make a living from poker.

http://www.sharkscope.com/index.jsp

RichieLawlor

NickyOD wrote:

Here is a database where you can look up your oponents overall winnings on online tournaments.


Partly true, this site has been around for ages and only covers Single table tournaments so any of the top tournament leaderboard players get there ranking from MTTs

poorbarman

RichieLawlor wrote:

NickyOD wrote:

Here is a database where you can look up your oponents overall winnings on online tournaments.


Partly true, this site has been around for ages and only covers Single table tournaments so any of the top tournament leaderboard players get there ranking from MTTs

Actually richie it covers ALL sit & gos including MTTs,eg stars 180s

Hectorjelly

RichieLawlor wrote:

Partly true, this site has been around for ages and only covers Single table tournaments so any of the top tournament leaderboard players get there ranking from MTTs

Ive read this a few times and it makes no sense to me

cardshark202

sharkscope only shows sngs. See tournamentreporter.com for all mtts, sngs and satellites.

nicnicnic

I know richie and this is the norm with him, he never makes any sense

staringelf

what happened to the other replies in this thread? there was a load of other replies. were they all deleted and if so why?

Lafortezza

The admins were doing some spring cleaning and they needed to restore from last nights back up so any posts made this morning were lost.

poorbarman

cardshark202 wrote:

sharkscope only shows sngs. See tournamentreporter.com for all mtts, sngs and satellites.

Cant seem to connect to this.Is it still available?

cardshark202

poorbarman wrote:

Cant seem to connect to this.Is it still available?

maybe the sites down

White Knight

Yeah Sharkscope is for STT's only:
Rooney_Dives:
1551 games played, av profit $6, av stake $40, ROI 26% Profit $9985
Riverloser:
1056 games $15 avg profit, av stake $218 26%ROI $15917

thepokerdb for MTT's:
Rooney_Dives:
January 1 - September 1 2006

Est Winnings: $63,483 Total Played: 724
Est Buyins: $37,277 ITM Rate: 16.2%
Rake: $2,381 FT Rate: 4.7%
Est Profit: $23,825
ROI: 60.1%

Riverloser 2003 - 2006

Est Winnings: $477,202 Est Buy ins $245,939
Rake $14,238
Est Profit $217,025
ROI: 83.4%

There is no site to track cash games so how can you compare the 2, only have peoples word for it and we all know poker players are incapable of lying!!

It's not even open for debate IMO, there is no way the best tournament players can compete with the best cash game players for profit, the stakes available to cash game players on stars, are 25/50nl and 200/400 limit in hold'em(24/7), how can tourny players grinding at 10 rebuys compete with that amount of $. Even the players playing regular 100 rebuys, $150, $200, $300, $500 tournies and bigger(not regularly available) cannot compete barring a big win in the sunday million on stars anyway.

I would be happy with just under 10k profit from (average $40 buy in) STTs in 10 months! 26% ROI for both of them too for comparison sake is successful and look at their ROI in MTT's!!!

RichieLawlor

RichieLawlor wrote:

NickyOD wrote:

Here is a database where you can look up your oponents overall winnings on online tournaments.


Partly true, this site has been around for ages and only covers Single table tournaments so any of the top tournament leaderboard players get there ranking from MTTs

how can it not make sense???????

players do not get leaderboard points on stars ect for playing sit and gos they get there points from MTTs. simple.

The Istanbul

Is Paddy Power poker covered?

Sangre

You do make more money in cash games but as mistresses go, it is by far the crueler one.

luckylucky

Sangre wrote:

You do make more money in cash games but as mistresses go, it is by far the crueler one.

I agree that in general the majority of high earners online make it from cash games,although there is a signiificant amount making it from tournies too, but as for it being a crueler mistress, that argument is defo open 4 debate .. try playing several multis or sngs in a row and finsihing just out of the money each time on bad beats for cruelty, at least in cash games you can reload and no one particular hand can ever be as cruel as getting your all-in aces busted on the bubble from some donk's pocket 2s.

OwenHargreaves

I find it very ironic that a title for a thread "a solid argument for cash games over tournaments" should contain so many factual inaccuracies and misinformation in the OP. And the OP has not attempted to correct these either.

As for balanced argument, it would be nice if some limits were mentioned in the OP too. For example, would the best players at 2/4nl make more or less than some of the top tournament players?

As for name-checking players, maybe it would be more appropriate to actually name some of the top pokerstars players, as opposed to those named:

ActionJeff (Jan 1 - Sep 1 2006)
Est Winnings: $173,366
Est Buyins: $62,467
Est Profit: $108,035
ROI: 165.4%

BodogAri (Jan 1 - Sep 1 2006)
Est Winnings: $322,265
Est Buyins: $157,038
Est Profit: $157,462
ROI: 95.5%

Now, i dont play cash games so id have to defer to someone's greater knowledge - but at what level of nl hold'em would the better players be making those level of profits? I could be wrong but i can't see many players at 1/2

---

> 3/6nl making those type of numbers and it would be a small % at 5/10nl. As for higher, im sure the top cash game players do better and by far.

Hectorjelly

There is little to be gained from comparing the top mtt cash earners from the last 6 months, they have undoubtadly been running extremely well.

OwenHargreaves

Hectorjelly wrote:

There is little to be gained from comparing the top mtt cash earners from the last 6 months, they have undoubtadly been running extremely well.

That make no sense at all. In any given year the best players are always going to be "running well", that's what makes them the best. I'm not comparing Jeff with Ari, what im saying is they are 2 of the best mtt players on pokerstars and if the OP wants to make a cash game v tournament thread then it would be advisable not to pick 2 examples that attempt to suit his argument, especially when his facts are wrong on both counts!!! Comparing Jeff+Ari with perhaps 2 of the top cash players would be more worthwhile.

MrPillowTalk

rooneydives = owenheargreaves?

I would imagine if you took the ten highest earners in cash games online and ten highest earners in the tournaments online, the cash game players would have a far higher profit.

However this is due to there being many high stakes games available 24/7 for the cash game players and very few high buy in mtts available.

I have no idea about the % but I would be surprised if the winning high stakes cash players were not outstripping the winning tourney players but I could well be wrong.

OwenHargreaves

Owen Hargreaves is the new Pele!!! Ok maybe not.....still class tho!! This thread could have been v interesting if some limits were mentioned, but as far as potential earnings go, there is no way on earth that a mtt player can be compete with a cash player for potential earnings. The stakes available are simply too high for cash game players. I'd def suggest the better mtt players would do better than the better players at 1/2 ---> 3/6 nl.

Hectorjelly

OwenHargreaves wrote:

That make no sense at all. In any given year the best players are always going to be "running well", that's what makes them the best. I'm not comparing Jeff with Ari, what im saying is they are 2 of the best mtt players on pokerstars and if the OP wants to make a cash game v tournament thread then it would be advisable not to pick 2 examples that attempt to suit his argument, especially when his facts are wrong on both counts!!! Comparing Jeff+Ari with perhaps 2 of the top cash players would be more worthwhile.

Theres much more luck and varience in mtts, a fish could get very lucky and win one of the huge party MTTS and be one of the biggest MTT earners this year. A fish could never be one of the top earners of cash game players. Now im not saying either of the two people posted are fish, far from it. However they will have ran really well and will no doubt return to the mean next year. The top cash game players will probably be the same next year, with some new additions.

OwenHargreaves

Hectorjelly wrote:

Now im not saying either of the two people posted are fish, far from it. However they will have ran really well and will no doubt return to the mean next year.

Again this is extremely flawed comment on many levels. In the years 2003, 2004 and 2005 the top 25 on the pokerstars tlb contained mainly the same names every year. Riverloser, TheBeat, JohnnyBax, Gank etc in actual fact if you actually checked into it before posting, you would find that the reality is the exact opposite of your statement. The best mtt players finish consistently at the top of the tlb year after year.

Granted , new players come on to the scene and do very well. Another important factor is this - the really successful mtt players on stars in previous years have gone to better things in live poker and are playing a lot less online, Bax, Gank and TheBeat all have WSOP bracelets and multiple other tournament wins and i know Riverloser has had success elsewhere too.

You are correct in so far as a large mtt win can be misleading in terms of profit, but i think it is clear that the best players in both disciplines will consistently come out on top.

Hitman Actual

MrPillowTalk wrote:

rooneydives = owenheargreaves?

My first thought too.

I don't have much to add to this thread, except that I agree that MTT's = high variance.

Slightly OT, how many tournaments would you need to play to know if you were a winning tournament player? 500? 1000+?

Hectorjelly

lenny_leonard wrote:

Slightly OT, how many tournaments would you need to play to know if you were a winning tournament player? 500? 1000+?

Just play 1, win it and there you go

OwenHargreaves

I'd imagine 600 - 1000 tournaments would be a very good indicator anyway. Most tournaments take many hours, as opposed to a cash game hand which takes minutes, so it would be unrealistic to take a much higher sample, i'd say 600 tournaments should be indicative. 1000 tournaments would equate to maybe 9 months/1 year's play for most regular players.

luckylucky

OwenHargreaves wrote:

Again this is extremely flawed comment on many levels. In the years 2003, 2004 and 2005 the top 25 on the pokerstars tlb contained mainly the same names every year. Riverloser, TheBeat, JohnnyBax, Gank etc in actual fact if you actually checked into it before posting,

Just one little thought on this, in the multi leaderboards there may be one key flaw... it shows the players who have won the most but it may also be the case that these players are playing morning, noon and night, do these records take into account how much they have lost too? i.e. I think if these tournies were a record of actual profit maybe the list would be completely different?

Another gripe of mine - I constantly see posts saying it's impossible to earn such and such an amount playing at a certain level... there are some amazing players out there, some multi-tabling in cash games and some in sngs who are making big big money and doing it month in month out. One eastern european guy I chat to every now and then has made over $600K in the last 2 years multi-tabling up to 8 tables some times, mostly $2-$4 NL cash games, though now that he has moved almost exclusively to multi-tabling $3-$6 and $5-$10 NL he is even earning more, $60K in August alone.

I know people do well multi-tabling in SNGS as well - personally I think it's tougher to multi-table in Sngs but just because I don't fancy it or that I'm simply not good enough doesn't mean that I don't recognise there is people who can do it.

This is just my opinion but I think there is probably a higher percentage of players averaging over $20K a month over an extended period in cash games than there are in tournaments but I think for the very talented it's probably possible in both.

The key skill for the advancing player to master to win big is to be able to multi-table at the game of your choice.

OwenHargreaves

luckylucky wrote:

Just one little thought on this, in the multi leaderboards there may be one key flaw... it shows the players who have won the most but it may also be the case that these players are playing morning, noon and night, do these records take into account how much they have lost too? i.e. I think if these tournies were a record of actual profit maybe the list would be completely different?

The tlb on pokerstars anyway is most certainly not a profit based list. Points are earned on results in a tournament. For example if i place 6th out of 1600 in a $10 freezeout for $350 i would probably earn a similar amount of points for someone placing 5th for $2500 in a $300 tourny with 200 runners. Most, if not all (i'm almost sure it is all but there are always 1 or 2 exceptions - players with huge bankrolls and a lot of time to accumulate points but are break-even players), of the top 150 will be showing a (healthy) profit in tournaments over the year. The figures i gave previously for Jeff and Ari are profit. Equally, if someone wins the sunday million for $200,000 they would be in theory on the top 40 on the year automatically if it were based on profit - yet in terms of points this is only 1600 pts and 1 counting result.

As for "playing morning, noon and night" - a lot of "tlb whores" will have arrangements with other good players to share their accounts : effectively this means they're account is in play 24/7 and puts them at a huge advantage in terms of volume of tournaments. HOWEVER, for tlb, only the top 100 results count for the yearly board, so it really doesnt matter if there were a thousand hours in the day, they could play all day and still not improve on their 100th best result. So in my opinion, sharing the account is not as beneficial as some might naturally assume.

luckylucky wrote:

This is just my opinion but I think there is probably a higher percentage of players averaging over $20K a month over an extended period in cash games than there are in tournaments but I think for the very talented it's probably possible in both.

Not even up for debate. Best cash game players do better than best tournament players. Stakes available and time available (1 hand = minute(s), 1 tournament = many hours) means the best players will always outstrip their tournament peers for profit.

cardshark202

Don't bring that superdonk bodogari into the equation. He is an idiot plain and simple.

OwenHargreaves

cardshark202 wrote:

Don't bring that superdonk bodogari into the equation. He is an idiot plain and simple.

LOL. v true. any time he's ever took me down he has 8 5 or K 4 and is making a "move". His "moves" seem to hit a lot though :mad:

slegs

OwenHargreaves wrote:

Again this is extremely flawed comment on many levels. In the years 2003, 2004 and 2005 the top 25 on the pokerstars tlb contained mainly the same names every year. Riverloser, TheBeat, JohnnyBax, Gank etc in actual fact if you actually checked into it before posting, you would find that the reality is the exact opposite of your statement. The best mtt players finish consistently at the top of the tlb year after year.

Granted , new players come on to the scene and do very well. Another important factor is this - the really successful mtt players on stars in previous years have gone to better things in live poker and are playing a lot less online, Bax, Gank and TheBeat all have WSOP bracelets and multiple other tournament wins and i know Riverloser has had success elsewhere too.

You are correct in so far as a large mtt win can be misleading in terms of profit, but i think it is clear that the best players in both disciplines will consistently come out on top.

same goes for tribeca..delperrio, cashmecall and three to four others consistently fill the top ten on the monthly leaderboard...this is far more than running well particularly due to the point that HJ makes about the amount of fish playing awful poker in MTTs...

padraig_f

OwenHargreaves wrote:

ActionJeff (Jan 1 - Sep 1 2006)
Est Profit: $108,035
ROI: 165.4%

BodogAri (Jan 1 - Sep 1 2006)
Est Profit: $157,462
ROI: 95.5%

One thing that surprises me here is the relatively low ROI from the best players. I'm not sure about what kind of ROI is sustainable at MTTs, but they normally say in $10k live events that the best players have an expectation of about 4-5 times the buy-in.

But these guys are presumably playing against much weaker opposition and are averaging not much more than 1 buy-in profit. Maybe it's to do with the faster structures. I still would've thought the edge would be bigger.

RoundTower

padraig_f wrote:

One thing that surprises me here is the relatively low ROI from the best players. I'm not sure about what kind of ROI is sustainable at MTTs, but they normally say in $10k live events that the best players have an expectation of about 4-5 times the buy-in.

They normally say what?

Maybe 5x the buyin in the WSOP main event, in other 10k events I can't imagine the best players can expect more than maybe 100% ROI.

NickyOD

So you guys are saying the second higherst ranked player on pocketfives and
1st on Bodogs TLB in 2005 is an idiot?

OwenHargreaves

NickyOD wrote:

So you guys are saying the second higherst ranked player on pocketfives and
1st on Bodogs TLB in 2005 is an idiot?

Actually i'd be more inclined to say people who make totally incorrect statements about others , as if they were matter of fact and then dont bother to correct them, are idiots!!

I think cardshark is referring to his hyper-aggressive style of play, which usually results in him dishing out a lot of bad beats and donkings. He is clearly extremely talented and successful.

NickyOD

OwenHargreaves wrote:

Actually i'd be more inclined to say people who make totally incorrect statements about others , as if they were matter of fact and then dont bother to correct them, are idiots!!

What's this about?

White Knight

NickyOD wrote:

Many don't make much at all. Rooney_Dives has only returned a $9K profit overall. Riverloser who is one of the highest ranked online tournament players has only made $19K on stars in over 1300 tournaments.

OwenHargreaves wrote:

Actually i'd be more inclined to say people who make totally incorrect statements about others , as if they were matter of fact and then dont bother to correct them, are idiots!!

Think thats what he means.

NickyOD

White Knight wrote:

Think thats what he means.

I did actually reply apologising for my mistake thinking it was MTTs. That disappeared, along with other replies in this thread. The link was a repost from a thread on the hendon mob with "tournament reporter" in the thread's title so I made the assumption it was for MTTs. An honest mistake is hardly grounds for calling someone an idiot.

bohsman

NickyOD wrote:

I did actually reply apologising for my mistake thinking it was MTTs. That disappeared, along with other replies in this thread. The link was a repost from a thread on the hendon mob with "tournament reporter" in the thread's title so I made the assumption it was for MTTs. An honest mistake is hardly grounds for calling someone an idiot.

tournamentreporter.com is a fantastic site which does list mtts for the last 2 months at least but it seems to be gone, havent been able to get onto it for weeks at least.

NickyOD

bohsman wrote:

tournamentreporter.com is a fantastic site which does list mtts for the last 2 months at least but it seems to be gone, havent been able to get onto it for weeks at least.

I know!! :mad:

OwenHargreaves

NickyOD wrote:

I did actually reply apologising for my mistake thinking it was MTTs. That disappeared, along with other replies in this thread..... An honest mistake is hardly grounds for calling someone an idiot.

It's all good, didnt see the apology. You can see why it's irritating though, imagine a thread "tournaments v cash games" with the OP saying "i think tournaments are the way to go, yer man NickyOD has only made 6k in cash games all year, cant be much money in it if that's all he's made this year!!" except you've probably made many times that amount!! Anyway, you are right there is more $ in cash games but it's still a decent living for the good tournament players, better than a lot of jobs i can think of!!

padraig_f

RoundTower wrote:

Maybe 5x the buyin in the WSOP main event, in other 10k events I can't imagine the best players can expect more than maybe 100% ROI.

So you think Ivey et al. are playing these multi-day events with an expectation of earning one buy-in?

MrPillowTalk

padraig_f wrote:

So you think Ivey et al. are playing these multi-day events with an expectation of earning one buy-in?

your forgeting most of the pros are sponsored so in esscence they are on a freeroll. if you took most of the name pros and looked at their winnings over any one year and then added up the value of the buyins to all the tourneys they played I would imagine very few are seeing more than a 100% return. Sure those that have a huge result will but most wont.

nicnicnic

I recall watching an interview with Dave Colclough, he had a break even year and topped the European rankings.