Ruling/Etiquette Question.

jbravado

Typical messy friday night early saturday morn cash game action-I have just lost a biggish pot which was slowrolled just for good measure.

I am now behind in the game when the following incident occours.

I raise blind to 7 utg.There are 4 callers.I have KQ clubs.

Flop comes 10 j q.I raise.Guy immediatly behind me reraises.Next guy calls and is all in.
I decide to push.Now the guy behind me immediatly throws his hand (98 for the low end) face up without announcing call.I ask for a ruling as his hand is exposed.His hand is declared dead.

He is furious and announces of course he was calling etc.This rages on for a few minutes before he accepts the ruling.I take down a pretty big pot (the other guy had a gutshot) and the atmosphere at the table turns frosty.

Is this the correct decision or is it dependant on the club?How was my conduct in this hand?-bear in mind I was steaming from the hand before.I offered to give him some of the pot back at the end of the night but he went bust soon afterwards.Should I have done this or is it a case of having to learn the hard way?

Any comments appreciated.

Mr. Flibble

I'd be furious too and think its the wrong ruling. I think the dealer should ask him if he is calling to verify. BUT, if I were in your position I'd keep my mouth shut and let purgatory do its thing.

DeVore

And if you turn over AK for the nuts... whats to stop him saying "I was folding my hand, showing what respect I have for you".

This is bollox and if he doesnt know the rules of the game he shouldnt be sitting down. Hand exposed is a dead hand, you cant try to get a reaction (and advantage) by exposing a hand before declaring an action.

This was debated about a month ago in exactly the same situation in the SE by the way...

DeV.

NickyOD

Stupidity should always be punished. Throwing a hand face up on the table does not mean call. Kill the hand every time as his intentions were never clear. If however he turns over the nutsbefore saying call obviously you wouldn't kill his hand, but in this case it definitely is.... except if you're playing in America.

Mr. Flibble

Looks like some replies were lost due to server problems.

Can someone post any of my posts (they'll be in your inbox if you've posted on this thread) and I'll peice it together. note: I may have missed some posts other than mine.

DeVore
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Fibble, do you actually read the threads before you hit reply?
Firstly, noone had AK, I was rhetorically asking a what-if question to show another reason why the rule is there. Secondly I didnt say anything about stupidity, Nicky did! Thirdly, yes people here ask questions about the rules a lot, some are quite complex and not even set in stone but rather house-to-house rules, but just because people ask about rules here doesn't mean someone should be able to complain when they run into one they didnt (but should have) known about. I don't know all the rules but I know a large number of them because I made it my business to know before I sat down at the tables to play. This guy was most likely looking for a cheap reaction to see if his straight was good and got stung when he realised he'd folded the winning hand. Good.


LuckyLloyd
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What Club were you in Jbravado when this happeaned?

BrokenArrows
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the same thing happened in a hand i saw about a year ago. The cards were put face down and then a pause then he said call. There was uproar but it was deemed that he was never intending to fold the hand because it was somehting like top 2 pair or something.

Another situation i reciently saw was where 2 players were both on nothing but stone cold bluffs. With nothing but high cards each. When the river came player 1 made a motion that was slight but ovious and to the dealer and everyone else it looked like a check. player 2 then says check and shows his cards with nothing but high card J.

Player 1 then goes mad saying he never checked etc etc etc. He makes a big song and dance about it. After a while the dealer says my mistake and player 2 agrees that he should be able to make a bet if he wishes.

By now it was ovious to everyone that player 1 was on a bluff too but he decides to push all in and player 2 calls with his J high and wins. Should the dealer have allowed the action to go back to player 1 in the first place.

jbravado
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It was the jackpot.I was nearly 100% sure that the correct ruling was made.

In different circumstances I probably wouldnt even ask for a ruling-the nature of this particular game and the fact I was down definitley was a factor.

Rnger

I have 95, flop comes 678. i bet, every1 folds except one other player who pushes. I turned over my cards before i called and got away with it. By turning over my cards I was saying 'of course im calling!'. I didnt even know this rule at the time. Is this not the opposite of slow rolling?

That was in the fitz. It was a fairly friendly game, I would be utterly disgusted if my hand was declared dead but thems the rules

Fair play to you calling him up on it!

Rnger

DeVore wrote:

This is bollox and if he doesnt know the rules of the game he shouldnt be sitting down. Hand exposed is a dead hand, you cant try to get a reaction (and advantage) by exposing a hand before declaring an action.

So for future referance... this is the rules of poker? If you show your hand its instantly dead? Except at a showdown of course.

In fairness DeVore, we're not all dealers and often the rules vary from casisno to casino to home-game. I picked up on the rules of poker just from playing as did everyone else afaik.

Mr. Flibble

Rnger wrote:

So for future referance... this is the rules of poker? If you show your hand its instantly dead?

I really don't think so. I've read in some written rules that if you expose you hand it can be declared dead, but isn't always called dead.

jbravado

The impression I got from the replies was-Yes if you expose your hand then it is dead.full stop.
Its so easy to avoid and there is absolutley no reason to do so I see no reason why it should not be punished.

Mr. Flibble

jbravado wrote:

The impression I got from the replies was-Yes if you expose your hand then it is dead.full stop.
Its so easy to avoid and there is absolutley no reason to do so I see no reason why it should not be punished.

I don't know why you are getting that impression. There have been two examples given in two different card rooms, one by me one by Rnger, where the cards have been exposed before declaring a call verbally and they haven't been declared dead.

I'm not having a dig or anything - if I were in the same situation as you were I would be extremly happy with the outcome, but I would be extremly unhappy if I were at the other end of it.