How many buses actually run?

beefa

Just wondering people, what percentage of bus services do you think actually run

Wishbone Ash

beefa wrote:

Just wondering people, what percentage of bus services do you think actually run

What Company?
What City/Town?
Which Services/Routes?

I think you will have to rephrase the question!

_Kaiser_

I'm sure most services actually do run, but whether or not they run ON TIME is the better question.

Wishbone Ash

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I'm sure most services actually do run, but whether or not they run ON TIME is the better question.

I would prefer a bus to be late than early - at least when it's late you can get it. I used to miss loads of buses years ago because they passed the house 10 minutes early!

(Obviously on time would be ideal).

_Kaiser_

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I would prefer a bus to be late than early - at least when it's late you can get it. I used to miss loads of buses years ago because they passed the house 10 minutes early!

(Obviously on time would be ideal).

I agree that if forced to choose, a few minutes late is always preferable to buses leaving a few minutes easly. In fact, I'd go further and say there is NO excuse at all for a bus to leave early (though I've seen it happen on several occasions - and yes I did report it to the depot/driver, only to be met by the usual denial/apathy I've come to expect from the majority (not all) of DB staff).

A bus should (ideally) be no later than 5 minutes of its scheduled departure time. Now if this means that the timetables need to be readjusted to take into account the traffic conditions then so be it.

Additionally, proactive controlling en-route is required - eg: if 2 buses are running back to back while the opposite direction has people waiting, the 2nd bus should transfer passengers to the first and then turned around to serve those waiting passengers (I've seen it happen so drivers can go on their break mid-route :rolleyes: ; why not for a legitimate reason?)

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I agree that if forced to choose, a few minutes late is always preferable to buses leaving a few minutes easly. In fact, I'd go further and say there is NO excuse at all for a bus to leave early (though I've seen it happen on several occasions - and yes I did report it to the depot/driver, only to be met by the usual denial/apathy I've come to expect from the majority (not all) of DB staff).

A bus should (ideally) be no later than 5 minutes of its scheduled departure time. Now if this means that the timetables need to be readjusted to take into account the traffic conditions then so be it.

Additionally, proactive controlling en-route is required - eg: if 2 buses are running back to back while the opposite direction has people waiting, the 2nd bus should transfer passengers to the first and then turned around to serve those waiting passengers (I've seen it happen so drivers can go on their break mid-route :rolleyes: ; why not for a legitimate reason?)

There are operational reasons for a bus to leave early.

Ideally all buses should leave on time However there is an acceptable time span of a couple of minutes either side of the scheduled time and the bus can still be counted as having left on time.


It is not as simple as that all the time the whole route has to be taken into account if you turn a bus half way what about the loading on the other half of the route if it is particularly heavy then people will be left behind
What about the journey that the bus is heading in to do that is left undone as the bus never reaches that terminus
Then there are also the considerations of the various working time directives etc.
See it is not as simple as you would like to make it out to be if you turn a bus around then that bus is now out of place.
What you might see is the controller correcting a route so that he is putting the Bus back where it should be.

Everybody thinks that they know how to operate the bus system but I gaurantee you give them a radio and let them do what they think should be done and they would quickly see it is not that simple.


BTW regulating the service to allow staff to take their breaks is legitimate whether you think it is or not

_Kaiser_

shltter wrote:

There are operational reasons for a bus to leave early.

Ideally all buses should leave on time However there is an acceptable time span of a couple of minutes either side of the scheduled time and the bus can still be counted as having left on time.


It is not as simple as that all the time the whole route has to be taken into account if you turn a bus half way what about the loading on the other half of the route if it is particularly heavy then people will be left behind
What about the journey that the bus is heading in to do that is left undone as the bus never reaches that terminus
Then there are also the considerations of the various working time directives etc.
See it is not as simple as you would like to make it out to be if you turn a bus around then that bus is now out of place.
What you might see is the controller correcting a route so that he is putting the Bus back where it should be.

Everybody thinks that they know how to operate the bus system but I gaurantee you give them a radio and let them do what they think should be done and they would quickly see it is not that simple.


BTW regulating the service to allow staff to take their breaks is legitimate whether you think it is or not

Firstly, "operational reasons" or not, there is no reason for a bus to depart early and leave passengers stranded (where the next bus might not be till an hour later - the 220 was regularly guilty of this when I had no other option but to rely on you and your colleagues).

Secondly, controllers (who are apparently on the road anyway - at least that's what I was always told anytime I rang the Depots) should be able to use the assets available to them in an efficent and customer-oriented (not union/staff-oriented) manner, taking into account traffic snarl-ups or buses bunching up etc. When the GPS system goes live, it should be a lot easier to do this as they'll have real-time access to where all the buses are on the route, right?

Finally, with regards to breaks.. over the years I've worked in various customer-facing roles and if I happened to be dealing with someone when my break rolled around, I simply took my break later (subject to workload at the time). Again, there's no reason why a similar method couldn't be implemented in DB, but yes it would require driver/staff cooperation and all staff to actually turn up for work (again from taking to depot staff, it seems buses not running because staff didn't show up today is a chronic issue).

DB as a whole - be it staff, drivers, unions or management - need to realise that they are employed to provide a public service, not to serve their own interests. However seeing as they have apparently no intention of doing this themselves, perhaps the new regulator will force them to and the company might actually become a viable alternative for commuters.

Budo.Judo.Kev

shltter wrote:

There are operational reasons for a bus to leave early.

Ideally all buses should leave on time However there is an acceptable time span of a couple of minutes either side of the scheduled time and the bus can still be counted as having left on time.

No, all buses should leave exactly when they are timetabled to leave.

markpb

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Firstly, "operational reasons" or not, there is no reason for a bus to depart early and leave passengers stranded (where the next bus might not be till an hour later - the 220 was regularly guilty of this when I had no other option but to rely on you and your colleagues).

I'm guessing (from experience) the operational reasons are when a bus doesn't run. Rather than have a gap from bus one to bus three, they push bus three up so there's less of a gap. It's good for the people waiting for bus two and irritating as hell for bus three.

What annoys me is that the depots don't know if this happens, only the inspector on the street does so even if you ring the depot, they won't know why your bus never showed up.

When the GPS system goes live, it should be a lot easier to do this as they'll have real-time access to where all the buses are on the route, right?

The long-term value of the GPS should be huge. Even in the short term, having a PIS at some/all of the bus stops wll be great.

Finally, with regards to breaks.. over the years I've worked in various customer-facing roles and if I happened to be dealing with someone when my break rolled around, I simply took my break later (subject to workload at the time). Again, there's no reason why a similar method couldn't be implemented in DB, but yes it would require driver/staff cooperation and all staff to actually turn up for work (again from taking to depot staff, it seems buses not running because staff didn't show up today is a chronic issue).

The difference between you (as a customer facing staff member) and a bus driver is that a whole raft of EU and Irish legislation covers bus drivers and makes it illegal for them to take their breaks later. After working a certain amount of time, they must by law stop working. No exceptions, no bending the rules, it's all on the tacograph. To be fair, it woul dbe a less of an issue if the traffic (for mass transport) in Dublin was manageable.

John R

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Firstly, "operational reasons" or not, there is no reason for a bus to depart early and leave passengers stranded (where the next bus might not be till an hour later - the 220 was regularly guilty of this when I had no other option but to rely on you and your colleagues).

TBH there are few circumstances where leaving early is acceptable. On frequent routes it sometimes is better to have a bus leave early to cover for a missing departure before. Really though for most Dublin routes with 15min or less frequency it is a wholly unacceptable practice and needs to be done away with.

I have occasionally seen drivers caught doing this by inspectors and be made return but for the most part it is done at remote locations where there is no oversight.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Secondly, controllers (who are apparently on the road anyway - at least that's what I was always told anytime I rang the Depots) should be able to use the assets available to them in an efficent and customer-oriented (not union/staff-oriented) manner, taking into account traffic snarl-ups or buses bunching up etc. When the GPS system goes live, it should be a lot easier to do this as they'll have real-time access to where all the buses are on the route, right?

It will for the first time give a complete overview of the entire operation and it should allow better real-time correction. It won't overcome the problems of congestion or the difficulties of going off timetable. Turning a bus early might seem like the logical solution to a big gap but that in turn creates a gap where the bus should be. It also puts the bus and driver in the wrong place which needs to be corrected later or the driver's break and changeover will not be in the right place/time.

There is also a risk with this that if it happens regularly certain sections of routes will end up with a very poor service as the buses are getting turned back early.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Finally, with regards to breaks.. over the years I've worked in various customer-facing roles and if I happened to be dealing with someone when my break rolled around, I simply took my break later (subject to workload at the time). Again, there's no reason why a similar method couldn't be implemented in DB

Sorry but that is simply not an option for bus drivers, there are very strict driving time regulations and both the driver and company would be criminally liable if an incident occoured with a driver who had gone over those hours.

If you are interested the main regs are 4.5 hours MAX driving without a break and a minimum of 45minutes break following that. 56 hour max per week and 90 hours max per fortnight.

There is also a minimum time (10 hours AFAIR) for the rest period between shifts.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

but yes it would require driver/staff cooperation and all staff to actually turn up for work (again from taking to depot staff, it seems buses not running because staff didn't show up today is a chronic issue).

People call in sick, it is an issue for all workplaces, I would be surprised if it is much higher in DB than in any other similar company. However professional driving isn't really a job where you should just muddle through if you are a bit unwell. I know plenty of people who will occasionally turn up for office jobs when they are not feeling the best or have been out on the piss the night before and had rotten hangovers, in those situations I would rather a bus driver stay at home instead of driving 80 people in 20 tonnes of metal around.

John R

I would estimate that better than 95% of all services are run. If all the untimetabled extras are taken into account I would be confident that more services than are in the timetables are run every weekday.

Certain routes that I know of are as close to 100% as possible, ones that do not suffer badly from congestion rarely have no-shows.

There are certain routes that are the opposite and I would say that the majority of cancellations happen on a small number of routes.

There are a number of reasons, congestion being the main one.

Some timetabled departures on a few routes are covered by extra rotas and these are first in line for cancellation from staff shortages.

Capt'n Midnight

Dublin bus have said that congestion cost them about €60-70m a year. This is very roughly same as the government subsidsy.

Congestion may explain why some buses are at termini before they need to be, due to unpredictable traffic en-route.

Buses can't be run 24/7, they would fall apart even faster.
A better indication of usage would be annual milage, except that much of the milage is in congested traffic.

Of course if they had been given the 200 buses they were promised 6 years ago and 6 years worth of additional buses the situation might be a bit better, or if they were given a subsidisy that did more than just cover the congestion..

Victor

Budo.Judo.Kev wrote:

No, all buses should leave exactly when they are timetabled to leave.

If a route is very high frequency, e.g. I think the 46A gets down to 3 minutes at times, it might be acceptable for a bus to leave early in specific circumstances, e.g. if the bus ahead of it is full, has been in a accident or if there are sufficient numbers of busses returning early to the terminus to provide additional services.

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Firstly, "operational reasons" or not, there is no reason for a bus to depart early and leave passengers stranded (where the next bus might not be till an hour later - the 220 was regularly guilty of this when I had no other option but to rely on you and your colleagues).




Secondly, controllers (who are apparently on the road anyway - at least that's what I was always told anytime I rang the Depots) should be able to use the assets available to them in an efficent and customer-oriented (not union/staff-oriented) manner, taking into account traffic snarl-ups or buses bunching up etc. When the GPS system goes live, it should be a lot easier to do this as they'll have real-time access to where all the buses are on the route, right?

Finally, with regards to breaks.. over the years I've worked in various customer-facing roles and if I happened to be dealing with someone when my break rolled around, I simply took my break later (subject to workload at the time). Again, there's no reason why a similar method couldn't be implemented in DB, but yes it would require driver/staff cooperation and all staff to actually turn up for work (again from taking to depot staff, it seems buses not running because staff didn't show up today is a chronic issue).

DB as a whole - be it staff, drivers, unions or management - need to realise that they are employed to provide a public service, not to serve their own interests. However seeing as they have apparently no intention of doing this themselves, perhaps the new regulator will force them to and the company might actually become a viable alternative for commuters.

Ok so say you have a 15 minute gap and a bus missing that means that there would be a 30 minute gap at one stage so the controller moves the next bus up a 7 or 8 minutes

So now there is a 23 minute gap and then another 22 or 23 minute gap then back to 15 minutes.
On a heavy loading road if the gap was left at 30 minutes then that bus would fill up quickly and then people would be left behind.
Also people standing at the termini get very frustrated when the Bus sits there and there is one missing.

If the gap is an hour long then that should not be done

Controllers are generally on the Road for a lot of routes( personally I dont think that is a good idea because controlling is something that needs your full attention)
And here is where you are contradicting your self because you simply cannot have a controller turning buses and have buses leaving on time every time the two are incompatible.

Secondly this is something you fail to grasp there are legal requirements on both the company and the driver regarding driving times.
And drivers are flexible within that however because you have no idea how things work it suits the company for drivers to break on time and come back on time. Drivers breaks are part of the timetable if a driver lets say is supposed to break at 10:15 and return at 11:00 and he doesn't break till 10:35 then who operates the 11:00 journey not to mention that the driver that should have taken up at 10:15 has been standing around for 20 minutes he is now 20 minutes late and to get that bus back on Schedule he has to be regulated ie sent out with no passengers to take up his time at the outer terminus.
It is not a simple matter of the driver just being convenienced so he can have his break on time late breaks have knock on consequences for the whole timetable.

Staff shortages during the summer months are a fact of life in a lot of businesses due to holidays people are sick or have other commitments all year but if you have 10 or 20% of your staff on holidays the back up that is there the rest of the year is not always available.


How do you reckon that they are serving their own interests on what basis give examples please

Wishbone Ash

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Buses can't be run 24/7, they would fall apart even faster

With the exception of down times for cleaning and servicing/maintenance, running a bus 24/7 is probably the most efficient method. I occasionally do a bit of work for a bus company which operates most of it's vehicles on a 24/7 basis.

It's also the most economic way to run a taxi or truck. They are only making money when they are on the road.

Ham'nd'egger

Wishbone Ash wrote:

With the exception of down times for cleaning and servicing/maintenance, running a bus 24/7 is probably the most efficient method. I occasionally do a bit of work for a bus company which operates most of it's vehicles on a 24/7 basis.

It's also the most economic way to run a taxi or truck. They are only making money when they are on the road.

It is only economic when a vehicle is making enough money to pay it's running costs, ie fuel, wages, depreciation, taxes, maintainance, etc.

In the case of a taxi this will be fairly low as a cab driver is the sole operator and usually the owner of same, you would look at circa €5 per road hour but would run without a fare for 20-50% of a shift so the earning time has to cover the non earing costs.

For a bus the passenger fare is a lot lower and the running costs are a lot higher but the time without a fare onboard is somewhat less so the income needed can be spread around. The average taxi fare in Ireland is €12.71, what is the same for a fare taking bus? Bus Eireann in 2005 took in €241 million from 93 million passenger trips so work out yourself how tight the margins are. I do know a few bus firms do run 24/7 services in Ireland, but these are as much PR as they are out and out money spinners.

Regardless of income, it must cover expenses incurred.

Victor

Dublin Bus was 146 million passengers for €181,453,000 total revenue (I presume there are other revenue streams than ticket sales). About €1.24 per passenger. This of course is probably distorted by the number of free passengers.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/about_us/pdf/BAC_05_pics.pdf

shltter

Wishbone Ash wrote:

With the exception of down times for cleaning and servicing/maintenance, running a bus 24/7 is probably the most efficient method. I occasionally do a bit of work for a bus company which operates most of it's vehicles on a 24/7 basis.

It's also the most economic way to run a taxi or truck. They are only making money when they are on the road.

Which company and how many vehicles do they have.

Taxis and Trucks are completely different a taxi only needs a couple of fares over the course of a night to pay for it self
And cornflakes or shoes dont mind if they are in a truck all night it makes no difference.
Buses rely on a large ammount of people to be travelling before it starts to become viable unfortunately there is not the demand for all night buses the Nitelink service has been curtailed monday to Thursday because there are just not enough people around to make it worth while.
The government does not view it as a need as they do not include the Nitelink services in the PSO.

Wishbone Ash

shltter wrote:

Which company and how many vehicles do they have.

PM sent.

Victor

shltter wrote:

Which company and how many vehicles do they have.

Aircoach do a limited service on Dublin-Airport overnight.

shltter

Victor wrote:

Dublin Bus was 146 million passengers for €181,453,000 total revenue (I presume there are other revenue streams than ticket sales). About €1.24 per passenger. This of course is probably distorted by the number of free passengers.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/about_us/pdf/BAC_05_pics.pdf

168 million euro from social services part of that would include payments from Dept of Social Welfare for free travel passes

Nitelinks, private hires, concerts etc come under commercial services and revenue from them was 13 million

Stark

Dublin Bus: probably 70-85%
Bus Éireann in Cork: Probably less than 50%

shltter

Victor wrote:

Aircoach do a limited service on Dublin-Airport overnight.

Yes but the claim was that the company was operating most of its fleet on a 24/7 basis

Aircoach have about 4 buses on over night to cover the local airport runs which is no where near most of their fleet

John R

shltter wrote:

Yes but the claim was that the company was operating most of its fleet on a 24/7 basis

I doubt there is any that would qualify for that. Even operators who run extensive night services (such as a handful of garages in London who run numerous 24hr and night routes) only use a fraction of the fleet at night than the require at peak hours.