Darfur - A day for peace

Ba_barbaraAnne

Despite the peace treaty signed last May between the Sudanese government and some of the rebel factions in Darfur, the situation in the region is becoming more and more destabilised and violent. Yet another humanitarian aid worker was killed this week, and although the UN have finally agreed upon sending a peacekeeping force to Sudan, the Sudanese Government is not willing to allow them into the country.

The situation in Darfur has been eclipsed by the recent invasion of Lebanon by Israel but must not be forgotten. September 17 is designated a Global Day for Darfur. http://www.dayfordarfur.org/News/Day_For_Darfur_Launch.htm

Another thread on this forum debates the question of how individuals can change the world.... by taking even a small part in this Global event, EVERYBODY can make a difference by highlighting the need for action in this 'hell on earth'.

InFront

I'm surprised there ahsnt even been a reply to this thread. It is sadly telling, that nobody is in any sort of ignorance over the significance of the date in 20 minutes time, yet September 17th will go largely unnoticed. Of course people will pause for the victims of 9-11 because they are Americans.

Fifty to Eighty Thousand people were murdered in Darfur by the Janjaweed and their conspirators in just over one year, the link is here at most around 5% of that number died in New York. Of course, it is fine to erect monuments and observe respect for the dead Americans, but ought the dead Darfurians not be afforded at least a comparable level of respect and consideration?

Priorities. I just wonder how much attention September 17th will actually receive

Wibbs

InFront wrote:

I'm surprised there ahsnt even been a reply to this thread. It is sadly telling, that nobody is in any sort of ignorance over the significance of the date in 20 minutes time, yet September 17th will go largely unnoticed.

Sadly I'm not too surprised, though a bit ashamed that I didn't myself. Worse in my case as I was aware of that tragedy.

Of course people will pause for the victims of 9-11 because they are Americans.

Some no doubt will. Equally most won't. Short attention spans are everywhere. I suppose 911 will be better remembered as the MTV generation have an iconic image to rewind in their heads and on video.

Priorities. I just wonder how much attention September 17th will actually receive

Sadly bugger all, along with other tragedies not advertised or close to home enough.

Sand

When I first saw it, I was tempted to respond that there would soon be peace in Darfur, one way or the other. But I figured that might be a bit tasteless.

Effectively, the people of Darfur were abandoned a long time ago by the "international community". They had best simply die or look to their own defences against their own sovereign government. The "rescue force" will arrive in time only to bury the victims.

walshb

For the record 9-11 was an attack on the world as nationalities died on that day, Irish included, so to begrudge them their anniversary is despicable. You care about the Sudanese issue, go organise something and I for one will respect it. Don't bring up 9-11 as a comparison or don't belittle it in any way. What happened in Sudan is dreadful, so too on 9-11.......

Zombrex

InFront wrote:

I'm surprised there ahsnt even been a reply to this thread. It is sadly telling, that nobody is in any sort of ignorance over the significance of the date in 20 minutes time, yet September 17th will go largely unnoticed. Of course people will pause for the victims of 9-11 because they are Americans.

I think it is more a realisation with people, people who are aware of the situation at least, that there is nothing we can do.

There is a rather naive, post-60s, idea still floating around western culture that if people just all get together and "protest" that they can actually achieve something. This was parodied quite well by the South Park "Hippy Jam Fest" episode.

The fact of that matter is everyone in Ireland could march through Dublin, that isn't going to change the situation very much.

China and Russia are not going to piss off Sudan. China wants there oil, Russia wants to sell them arms. Without China and Russia on board to pressure Sudan sanctions against them are not going to be that effective.

This side of invading the country the UN cannot put peace keepers in the region without the approval of the Sudan government, who are increasingly suggesting that the UN forces that are there are an occuping force, and have asked them to leave.

I understand that some people when they see something like this have a desire to "do something", anything, but really there is nothing we can do, side from make people aware of the situation and I think anyone who reads a newpaper like the Irish Times or the Economist is well aware of the situation by now.

It may sound strange but if someone wants to do something enroll themselves in a bio-chemistry class and work to develop non-oil based fuels. You then might have a chance to stop something like this happening in the future.

freddyfreeload

Perhaps there is "nothing that can be done" to stop the Sudanese government killing civilians. Perhaps.

On the other hand there are some small ways to take action that take very little time, effort, and/or cost, but which could help bring about enough pressure to persuade the Sudanese govt to comply with UN res 1706 and let the UN peacekeepers in.

You can add your name to Amnesty International's online petition calling for UN Peacekeepers to be let in , without leaving your desk or spending a cent.

Or support their Darfur Week of Action (13th to 20th Sept).

Or write to Sudanese President, Attourney General and Ministers & UN Security Council Members through the Human Rights Watch website (all addresses plus bullet points for content provided - takes longer and you have to pay for stamps).

Or fax US Assistant Secretary for African Affairs Jendayi Frazer urging her to keep her promises on helping the people of Darfur and to support UN 1706, through Genocide Intervention Network's website (takes about 2 minutes but you'll have to use a fake US zip code e.g. TX5).

Or march with Trocaire and others on Friday 15th.

Or take part in the Global Day For Darfur - Sept 17 - also from your desk.

Or buy exclusive music through Amnesty's Make Some Noise campaign (including Black Eye Peas, Snow Patrol, The Cure and others).

Of course, these and other small efforts might not make any difference. But then again they might. They have in the past. And there's surely no harm in trying.

ff

Moriarty

freddyfreeload wrote:

Of course, these and other small efforts might not make any difference. But then again they might. They have in the past. And there's surely no harm in trying.

I'm not trying to be a pain here, but when has anything like that actually influenced change? I honestly can't think of any examples in the past 15 years.

freddyfreeload

Moriarty wrote:

I'm not trying to be a pain here, but when has anything like that actually influenced change? I honestly can't think of any examples in the past 15 years.

Just because you can't think of them doesn't mean they aren't there. Good news doesn't sell alot of papers.

Amnesty has had decades of success at getting prisoners of concience released and campaigning on major human right issues. Try checking it out for yourself, either on the web or by going a long to a meeting and speaking to activists. And here's some recent success stories you can check out. Of course, you may choose to arrive at the conclusion that these things would have happened anyway, however, that's generally not the way the victims see it, nor the grass roots activists on the scene who live within these repressive countries working for Amnesty.
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/aboutai-goodnews-eng
http://www.amnestyusa.org/success/index.do
http://www.amnestyusa.org/children/success.do

Here are two other examples where a similar style of campaigning has worked very recently...

Last summer Greepeace used an online awareness campaign and a small contingent of activists on the ground in Korea to stop the resumption of Whaling. They actually persuaded the businessmen involved and the local council to get into Whale spotting tourism instead.

And Oxfam's Big Noise campaign has recently had massive success establishing a long-term, viable, self-managed, organic fair-trade coffee industry in Ethiopia, including fair prices, the removal of parasitic middle-men and the founding of farmers co-operatives.


I'd love to spend the rest of my day listing the very real successes that this kind of campaigning activity actually has on a regular basis, but I have work to do.

Believe me, it works. Not always, granted. But it has the potential to work in this instance too. And the more people who get involved, the more likely it is that it will. It's a simple request - allow UN troops in and comply with UN res 1706, with enough international pressure, it's surprising how you can strengthen diplomatic hands.

The only thing I know for sure that's an absolute, flat out guaranteed, dead certaint route to failure - is sitting around saying there's nothing we can do and waiting for the axe to fall.

ff

Sand

Believe me, it works. Not always, granted. But it has the potential to work in this instance too. And the more people who get involved, the more likely it is that it will. It's a simple request - allow UN troops in and comply with UN res 1706, with enough international pressure, it's surprising how you can strengthen diplomatic hands.

The Sudanese have oil and they have China in their corner. Yay for a multi-polar world.

And the reasons they should let the UN in to support what they see as a rebellion? I mean your letter writing campaign is directed as the US asst secretary for African affairs...I wasnt aware she was the Chinese representitive to the UN security council in her spare time?

fly_agaric

InFront wrote:

I'm surprised there ahsnt even been a reply to this thread. It is sadly telling, that nobody is in any sort of ignorance over the significance of the date in 20 minutes time, yet September 17th will go largely unnoticed. Of course people will pause for the victims of 9-11 because they are Americans.

Fifty to Eighty Thousand people were murdered in Darfur by the Janjaweed and their conspirators in just over one year, the link is here at most around 5% of that number died in New York. Of course, it is fine to erect monuments and observe respect for the dead Americans, but ought the dead Darfurians not be afforded at least a comparable level of respect and consideration?

Priorities. I just wonder how much attention September 17th will actually receive

Well at least the thread allowed you to do a bit of death-weighing and play a bit of political football.

Ironically, the US has been one of the few countries to push this issue at all at the UN in the face of opposition from Arab countries and China AFAICR

(edited)

freddyfreeload

Sand wrote:

And the reasons they should let the UN in to support what they see as a rebellion?

Just the small matter of international law.

Sand wrote:

I mean your letter writing campaign is directed as the US asst secretary for African affairs...I wasnt aware she was the Chinese representitive to the UN security council in her spare time?

Not my letter writing campaign. And only one among many. And while she naturally doesn't fit your fatuous description, she has pledged to do all she can on this issue, so writing to her to urge her to honour it is hardly innapropriate.

Sand wrote:

The Sudanese have oil and they have China in their corner. Yay for a multi-polar world.

Damn, you're right! Perhaps you should just go ahead and let the entire international human rights community know they're wasting their time. Yay for genocide!

ff

lostexpectation

the other day I saw a version of save darfur letter going around to be sent to us officials, it included among it wishes for peace in the region...

"please authorise the use of armed predators drones to....."

I **** you not....

Sand

Just the small matter of international law.

Okay, so effectively nothing?

Not my letter writing campaign. And only one among many. And while she naturally doesn't fit your fatuous description, she has pledged to do all she can on this issue, so writing to her to urge her to honour it is hardly innapropriate.

The one you chose to highlight but either way a complete waste of time. You might as well mail me if youre not going to mail the Chinese. The people who are protecting Sudan are the Chinese who want Sudans oil and do not wish to have blockades. The US is - shock horror - not the cause or solution to the problem in Darfur.

I understand, this might be difficult to digest in the US centric mindset that dominates most peoples understanding of world events.

Damn, you're right! Perhaps you should just go ahead and let the entire international human rights community know they're wasting their time. Yay for genocide!

Welcome to a multi-polar world where you cant just mail the relevant US authorities and demand they sort the world out, where other power blocs interests and demands are asserted, often to the cost of people trapped in the faultlines of geo-political clashes. Is it everything you hoped for?

Essentially the people in Darfur are screwed. For all the chat, the "international community" is completely uninterested. If the AU is forced to pull out and the Sudanese send in their own troops again as they wish to do, then the NGOs will be forced to pull out and that will be that. Darfur will recede to Rwanda status - desperately sad, but we wont make that mistake again will we?

The only thing that could save them at this point is a unilateral deployment of troops by a coalition that basically sidesteps the UN, as was done in Kosovo. But we all know how terrible unilateral interventions outside the UNs auspices would be. Better the people of Darfur die than such a horrible evil be considered.

freddyfreeload

Sand wrote:

Okay, so effectively nothing?

You consider the UN and international law nothing?

Sand wrote:

The one you chose to highlight

I highlighted considerably more than one.

Sand wrote:

For all the chat, the "international community" is completely uninterested.

A pretty weak attempt to expurgate your own disinterest by projecting it on to others, but more to the point, simply not true. I actually know the kind of people you're talking about.

Sand wrote:

...either way a complete waste of time... Essentially the people in Darfur are screwed.

Sometimes I wonder why you're on this board at all. Your interest in humanities seems akin to that displayed by small boys in the wings off flies.

Sand wrote:

Better the people of Darfur die than such a horrible evil be considered.

No. Better that those who can, act now to implement and support the implementation of perfectly actionable international law.

There is every reason to believe the situation in Darfur can be contained (I have actually been told this first hand by people working in Sudan) if the Sudanese government is held to public account. By definition, this entails ordinary people adding their voices.

But then I suspect the only outcome you'll be happy with is one where your misanthropic vision of selfish disinterest bears bloody fruit. Then you can tell the likes of me, "I told you so."

They say, I'm sure you've heard, that the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Fortunately for you however, any number of average to poor ones can look the other way without it mattering a whit, so I guess your hands are clean whatever happens.

Your belief that "trying to do something" is a waste of time, is easy enough to swallow. Fine. Do nothing. But the tone and content of your posts goes well beyond that. It's like you actually hope it will fail. As though some gratuitous bloodletting in Darfur will somehow vindicate your world view. Well, bravo for you, but please excuse me while I go find something to settle my stomach.

ff

Sand

You know looking over your post, Its amazing how much of it is about myself rather than the issue at hand. Anyhow.

You consider the UN and international law nothing?

Its only effective when one or more of the major powers is backing the UN and is not being checked by any other of the major powers. Its just an extension of one or other states power. In and of itself its fairly meaningless. Genocide is illegal, but Sudan will only give a damn if theres an actual possibility theyll be hammered for it. With China in their corner, they dont have to worry all that much.

And either way, UN and international law is designed by states, for states. Individual human beings have very few rights with relative to sovereign states. Hence no force can be deployed in Sudan without Sudans permission, which Sudan is not inclined to give. UN and international law then collapses on that point.

A pretty weak attempt to expurgate your own disinterest by projecting it on to others, but more to the point, simply not true. I actually know the kind of people you're talking about.

Darfur has been going on for years. There is absolutely no rush on any government in getting involved in Darfur.

No. Better that those who can, act now to implement and support the implementation of perfectly actionable international law.

Those who can act, cant for the perfectly clear reason that China will not support any action taken against Darfur that is any stronger than a stern scolding.

There is every reason to believe the situation in Darfur can be contained (I have actually been told this first hand by people working in Sudan) if the Sudanese government is held to public account. By definition, this entails ordinary people adding their voices.

They cant be - theyre an oil exporting nation in a time of increasing oil prices. China will not allow any sanctions to harm its intersts in Sudan, so the most obvious means of demanding Sudan acts properly is nullified. The only way is to put pressure on China, but China has little problem with repressing its own citizens, so wont be too bothered about Darfur.

But then I suspect the only outcome you'll be happy with is one where your misanthropic vision of selfish disinterest bears bloody fruit. Then you can tell the likes of me, "I told you so."

Outcome? Its happening as we speak. Hundreds of thousands are dead, hundreds of thousands more are suffering? A force needed to be sent to Darfur - with or without UN approval, however shocking that might be - months if not years ago to protect peoples basic right to live. The entire 3 year process has already made a joke of the concept of rapid reaction forces and international law. If Sudan turned around tomorrow and said, "Oh my god, those poor people in Darfur, please come in and protect them from our...uh I mean THE janjaweed militias", it would take months for any force to deploy - and given the difficulties experienced in Lebanon, where France initially offered only 200 troops before being shamed into a semi-decent contribution Id very much doubt youd see anything like the 17,000 promised.

They say, I'm sure you've heard, that the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Well I guess thats why the situation in Darfur is past rescuing.

Your belief that "trying to do something" is a waste of time, is easy enough to swallow. Fine. Do nothing. But the tone and content of your posts goes well beyond that. It's like you actually hope it will fail. As though some gratuitous bloodletting in Darfur will somehow vindicate your world view. Well, bravo for you, but please excuse me while I go find something to settle my stomach.

As above, my world view has already been vindicated. 3 years, hundreds of thousands dead, and at best glacial progress to deployment of a properly manned, equipped and trained force to protect the refugee camps and aid workers.

Reminds me of that joke in little britain, about booking an appointment with the GP now if you think youll be ill in 6 months. If you think youll be the victim of genocide in 4 or 5 years time, how about making an appointment with the UNSC today?

The essential brakes remain - Sudan doesnt want to grant permission to let troops in, under international law it doesnt have to, and the realpolitick is China will support Sudan. Letterwriting and buying amnesty branded Black Eyed Peas tunes might have the benefit of making people think theyre great for "doing something", but its up there with pissing on a housefire to try and put it out.

Again, the only hope the people of Darfur have is that a coalition sidesteps the UN, international law, Chinas veto and Sudan permission slip and deploys to protect the aid camps with a force strong enough to severely discourage the Sudanese from chancing their arm. Thats the unfortunate reality. And even more unfortunate that there are no likely candidates lining up for the role.

freddyfreeload

If you found the flavour of my last post too personal, I guess that's because you don't like the taste of your own medicine. I guess I could have tried your, "we all know the sort of digging implement some people prefer," route, but decided to call it a spade instead.

I know how long the problem in Sudan has been going on. A lot longer that 3 years. I know people who've done double stints there with NGO's. I know a man who was elected to it's legitimate government prior to the military coup in 1985 and now lives in exile. And yes, the west has had its back turned for decades. But that's not a valid reason to continue doing so now.

So China has vetoed UN1706. Still it has been adopted, and Sudan are breeching it by refusing deployment. Your predictions about speed of deployment notwithstanding, the chance still exists to prevent genocide now. It's not too late until it's too late.

In the meantime I think I'll carry on pissing on the fire you're ignoring.

ff

Sand

If you found the flavour of my last post too personal, I guess that's because you don't like the taste of your own medicine. I guess I could have tried your, "we all know the sort of digging implement some people prefer," route, but decided to call it a spade instead.

I just found it noteworthy that you had little to put forward in terms of the issue itself, just that I was a very bad person for being realistic about Darfur, and the chances of the people there. Says a lot about the argument your advocating. My reaction to people on the internet that I dont know disliking me is fairly uninterested otherwise.

I know how long the problem in Sudan has been going on. A lot longer that 3 years. I know people who've done double stints there with NGO's. I know a man who was elected to it's legitimate government prior to the military coup in 1985 and now lives in exile. And yes, the west has had its back turned for decades. But that's not a valid reason to continue doing so now.

Im not arguing for the west to turn its back on Darfur. Im arguing for a reform of a system of international law that protects the state and ignores the human being. And I dont accept that a letter writing campaign is all that effective a substitute for actual intervention, even if that intervention is in breach of hallowed international law.

Im arguing for people to support interventionist policies and demand their leaders act where ever possible to defend human rights, that they place human rights ahead of legal codes that were designed to prevent states being held to account.

That genocide still occurs in an age when Europe and North America have powerful militaries and diplomatic influence is shameful. It has happened again, and again and again, and practically every time nothing is done until far too late. Tragic lessons are learned, a movie is made about the terrible events a few years later, and then the same thing happens again. Now either people wish to see genocide prevented, and are willing to support concrete steps to protect the victims of genocide - in a timely manner - or they do not.

And if that means going round an obstructionist system that takes three years to ultimately come round to asking the state commiting the crime for permission to protect the victims of the crime then then so be it.

As it is, the actual concept of ignoring the UN, or challenging a sovereign state, or indeed intervention as a concept is attacked by the people who should be calling for it in line with their claimed humanitarian ideals. Ive noted that some leaders like Bush have hinted that a force should go in with or without Sudans permission, but seeing as the US is highly unlikely to be contributing significantly to the force given thats not really his call to make. And in the absence of the US I doubt the "international community" will be willinging to step up. The "international community" may demand a leadership position but I cant really think of too many times theyve delivered without US leadership.

So China has vetoed UN1706. Still it has been adopted, and Sudan are breeching it by refusing deployment. Your predictions about speed of deployment notwithstanding, the chance still exists to prevent genocide now. It's not too late until it's too late.

Sudan are committing genocide. I doubt being in breech of a piece of unenforced paper is all that concerning to them, relative to what they are doing already.

In the meantime I think I'll carry on pissing on the fire you're ignoring.

Yeah, if its not broken, why fix it.

fly_agaric

This might also make it unlikely that any Western country, let alone the US, would intervene over the head of the Sudanese govt.

freddyfreeload

Sand wrote:

Im not arguing for the west to turn its back on Darfur. Im arguing for a reform of a system of international law that protects the state and ignores the human being.

I agree. Reform of the UN is vital. It has been allowed too much to become the tool of Security Council members to warp its process to their geopolitical objectives. And I would point the finger at all of them. Though the US, Russia and China are (at least in my book) the most culpable.

Sand wrote:

I dont accept that a letter writing campaign is all that effective a substitute for actual intervention

It clearly isn't an effective substitute. At present it's purpose is to call for that intervention, under UN auspices, to take place.

Sand wrote:

Im arguing for people to support interventionist policies and demand their leaders act where ever possible to defend human rights

and

...even if that intervention is in breach of hallowed international law.

I don't have a problem with non UN intervention on humanitarian grounds as long as it is within the bounds of international law, as per this call by John McCain and Bob Dole.

The alternative is a free for all where geo-political imperatives are always masked behind professions of humanitarian intent, like Iraq, or Chechnya. India or Pakistan could "intervene" in Kashmir. And what if China gets expansionist under the guise of pseudo-humanitarian intervention.

The only thing that keeps the brakes on is the UN. What it needs is strengthening reform that breaks the hold of the current security council system.

That genocide still occurs in an age when Europe and North America have powerful militaries and diplomatic influence is shameful. It has happened again, and again and again, and practically every time nothing is done until far too late.

I don't think it's accurate to say genocide has occured again and again (at least within the historical context of the kind of debate we're having here) or to blame the UN for all its occurances.

Nor is it clear that unilateral military intervention outside international law can help. The Rwandan genocide was so swift and brutal that half a million were dead within the first 5 weeks. Even the US doesn't mobilise that quickly. And even if they or any other major military power could, or had spotted the warning signs, it's unlikely they'd have felt motivated to try without any accompanying geo-political goals.

The moral obligation to humanitarian intervention can only really work under international law. What is needed, is a UN that can work effectively and swiftly to do this. Sadly, with at least three security council members indulging in counterproductive military escapades at the moment, the moral authority needed to make this change is fatally undermined.

Sand wrote:

Sudan are committing genocide. I doubt being in breech of a piece of unenforced paper is all that concerning to them, relative to what they are doing already.

The genocide is, as you say, underway. Yet I still believe steps can be taken to prevent it entering it's final bloody phase and will do the only tiny bit I can to that end. With that in mind, if you can find me an org that's running as letter writing campaign to the Chinese, I'll do that too.

ff