Advice on a hand

The Sheriff 101

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+2 ($14.17)
MP1 ($46.50)
MP2 ($28.90)
MP3 ($45.80)
CO ($57.20)
Hero ($25.28)
SB ($36.45)
BB ($30.06)
UTG ($49.75)
UTG+1 ($31.99)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, A. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.5, 1 fold, BB calls $2, UTG folds, MP2 calls $2.

Flop: ($8.25) 3, 9, 2(3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $4, BB calls $4, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($16.25) A(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB raises to $20, Hero calls $8.78 (All-In).

River: ($55.03) 7(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $55.03


BB has 5s 4s (straight, five high).
Hero has Ts Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: BB wins $55.03.

How bad did i play this Villian is pretty Loose
Should i have bet turn i know only thing that is going to call me has me beat but i cant let him hit cheap flush?

PokerSquid

my humble opinion (with the advantage of hindsight)...

seems a little like you overplayed top pair with a weak kicker.

i think you did the right thing betting on the flop, and about the right amount. once you bet big on the turn (Ace) he probably figured you for A/x and not a flush and since he made his hand, raising you was a no brainer.

optional play? check turn, he bets small so he doesn't lose you. though still hard to tell if HE has an ace or is still drawing. you might raise him, if he RE-raises. you know better where you're at.

or maybe bet 1/3 pot.

4th club on the river might've slow him down some too. you would've lost, but perhaps not busted out.

i think sometimes "bet so they don't catch a cheap draw" is over rated. sometimes. remember, if he WERE still drawing, you'd be the favorite. why bust out on A/10?

The Sheriff 101

if i had more behind me i think i could i gotten away pretty easy
so check turn call small bet on river ?
not sure i like it.

pok3rplaya

pf is standardo.

You didn't bet enough on the flop if you do choose to bet. A bigger bet is more likely to fold people out. Checking behind here is fine too when you face loose opponents. Also you need to bet more so that you don't give a guy with a flush draw correct pot odds to call. You should make it 6 - 8 here.

When the draw hits on the turn you need to check behind. No longer is controling the opponents pot odds so important because if he has a draw he most likely has just hit it. We would now like to deny an opponent a bet if he has hit a draw and also keep the pot small because of our weak hand.

The river will play different if you check the turn, But fwiw, if you had checked the turn behind and then he checked to you again on the river, you want to check behind when against a loose player and push against a tight player. The loose player won't fold so don't bluff him, the tight player will fold lots of clubs because you represent the Ac.

Ste05

You're not deep enough to play crap hands like A10o... A few points:

1. If short stacked DON'T Raise with weak hands like A10o,
2. As played (flop).... Don't routinely bet into 2 players on a drawing flop that completely missed you....
3. As played (turn) ...If you must bet, push... (again short stacked problem) (but what hands are going to call you that you beat). But basically the only way you are going to make any money off the hand is to call a bluff. No weaker hand is going to put a penny more into this pot unless they can beat a pair of A's. Especially seeing as all draws just completed.

The main problem here is playing short stacked and hand selection.

pok3rplaya

Ste05 wrote:

You're not deep enough to play crap hands like A10o... A few points:

1. If short stacked DON'T Raise with weak hands like A10o,
2. As played (flop).... Don't routinely bet into 2 players on a drawing flop that completely missed you....
3. As played (turn) ...If you must bet, push... (again short stacked problem) (but what hands are going to call you that you beat). But basically the only way you are going to make any money off the hand is to call a bluff. No weaker hand is going to put a penny more into this pot unless they can beat a pair of A's. Especially seeing as all draws just completed.

The main problem here is playing short stacked and hand selection.

1) When short, the value of high card hands like AT actually goes up. This is to do with the short stack lessening our reverse implied odds (aka we don't lose as much when we get stacked by implied odds hands such as sets). The valuse of implied odds such as 67s goes down because we don't have enough money behind to use them for their full potential, ie stacking people.

2) Yes I agree.

3) Yes.

The Sheriff 101

im never in the habbit of raising with A10 i recently had a post about it but in the button together with my tight image and i raise with almost any A on button.

Yes flop bet was quite poor at least 6 and im not in the habbit of continuation betting like that.

yes turn bet was quite poor but my thinking at the time was not to give a cheap club as he would call with any club.

felt i was pot commited with the last 8 thinking back im not so sure maybe a bet of 8 no no definiately a check fold

points noted thanks

The Sheriff 101

yes flop raise was very weak turn was worse hard to put him on a hand was extremely loose makes my flop bet seem wores:o
he called a guy down with 44 flop 6810 2 q other guy had QQ
the more i replay the hand the worse it seems:o

Ste05

pok3rplaya wrote:

1) When short, the value of high card hands like AT actually goes up. This is to do with the short stack lessening our reverse implied odds (aka we don't lose as much when we get stacked by implied odds hands such as sets). The valuse of implied odds such as 67s goes down because we don't have enough money behind to use them for their full potential, ie stacking people.

At risk of this turning into a short stack strategy thread, the above is correct, however, IMO A10o does not fall into this catagory. The following are my reasons why:

1. The 10 won't make a strong enough TP to be willing to commit our stack to the hand. Generally if the flop is 10 high, it will be draw heavy, meaning that we'll have to bet a much higher % of our stack to price out draws (basically committing to the hand - if not having to blindly over-bet push).

2. If our A hits we'll either have kicker problems (if called), or everyone at the table will be able to play their hand perfectly against us as they'll generally (correctly) put us on a pair of A's and therefore know exactly what we have and just play their hand accordingly, if they put money into the pot they will know that we are playing for our stack regardless of what comes on the turn or river. i.e. Guaranteed Implied odds (basically becoming Pot odds to them)

As a short stack we are playing 2 Street Poker, and we can't be happy with an A high flop or a 10 high flop, nor can we find out whether we're drawing deadish/ very thin to a set or 2 pair, etc. Therefore the reasons why not to raise with weak A's.

Hands like KQ, AQ, AK, do go up in value, but hands that have little to no value generally do not magically become more valuable just because we have less chips. All it means is we have limited the hands we can play. Mid PP's, KQ, etc. do go up in value but hands with little/ marginal value to begin with just plummet in value and nice little hands like S/C's etc. become unplayable.

Also we're not worrying about losing less money to "implied odds hands" the fact that we're short stacked just means that we're not playing with enough money behind to offer the correct implied odds to drawing type hands to make a call correct. (hence they won't call and only better hands will play with us - if the players are crap and call with junk and commit their stack with mid pairs then we should be playing fully stacked)

Therefore against good players (or at least better players than us - if they're not better again we should be playing Fully stacked) the only hands that will call (and commit more chips Post flop) are hands that have us in trouble. So we're better off just trying to rob blinds with any old cards in position than to be playing for our small stack with a weak hand like A10o.

The Sheriff 101

Ste05 wrote:

At risk of this turning into a short stack strategy thread, the above is correct, however, IMO A10o does not fall into this catagory. The following are my reasons why:

1. The 10 won't make a strong enough TP to be willing to commit our stack to the hand. Generally if the flop is 10 high, it will be draw heavy, meaning that we'll have to bet a much higher % of our stack to price out draws (basically committing to the hand - if not having to blindly over-bet push).

2. If our A hits we'll either have kicker problems (if called), or everyone at the table will be able to play their hand perfectly against us as they'll generally (correctly) put us on a pair of A's and therefore know exactly what we have and just play their hand accordingly, if they put money into the pot they will know that we are playing for our stack regardless of what comes on the turn or river. i.e. Guaranteed Implied odds (basically becoming Pot odds to them)

As a short stack we are playing 2 Street Poker, and we can't be happy with an A high flop or a 10 high flop, nor can we find out whether we're drawing deadish/ very thin to a set or 2 pair, etc. Therefore the reasons why not to raise with weak A's.

Hands like KQ, AQ, AK, do go up in value, but hands that have little to no value generally do not magically become more valuable just because we have less chips. All it means is we have limited the hands we can play. Mid PP's, KQ, etc. do go up in value but hands with little/ marginal value to begin with just plummet in value and nice little hands like S/C's etc. become unplayable.

Also we're not worrying about losing less money to "implied odds hands" the fact that we're short stacked just means that we're not playing with enough money behind to offer the correct implied odds to drawing type hands to make a call correct. (hence they won't call and only better hands will play with us - if the players are crap and call with junk and commit their stack with mid pairs then we should be playing fully stacked)

Therefore against good players (or at least better players than us - if they're not better again we should be playing Fully stacked) the only hands that will call (and commit more chips Post flop) are hands that have us in trouble. So we're better off just trying to rob blinds with any old cards in position than to be playing for our small stack with a weak hand like A10o.

Great post i was gonna pick out a few points but too many
alot to take into consideration also a good point about buying in for full stack i was generally buying in for 20 and building it up:mad:
but now i see why i am better off buying in for the max 50
alot to do with me buying in for the 20 was i only had 150 in my account its now 300 is that enought to allow for varience buying in for 50 i cant imagine it is 500 minumin?

pok3rplaya

The Sheriff 101 wrote:

Great post i was gonna pick out a few points but too many
alot to take into consideration also a good point about buying in for full stack i was generally buying in for 20 and building it up:mad:
but now i see why i am better off buying in for the max 50
alot to do with me buying in for the 20 was i only had 150 in my account its now 300 is that enought to allow for varience buying in for 50 i cant imagine it is 500 minumin?

You need at least $1000 to be playing 50NL. Really you should be playing 10NL until you get to $500. Then moving up to 25NL.

PokerSquid

Ste05 wrote:

At risk of this turning into a short stack strategy thread, the above is correct, however, IMO A10o does not fall into this catagory. The following are my reasons why:

1. The 10 won't make a strong enough TP to be willing to commit our stack to the hand....

Ste: good post. very helpful. thanks.

i'm curious though about the criticism of the flop bet. $6 vs. $4 seem trivial. while the pot odds, etc. probably wouldn't be "right", is the loose player folding for $2 more?

5starpool

pok3rplaya wrote:

You need at least $1000 to be playing 50NL. Really you should be playing 10NL until you get to $500. Then moving up to 25NL.

This is only really true when talking about your entire bankroll, whether this is real or notional i.e you only have 200 in your account, want to play 50NL but are easily prepared to put 200 more in if you lose it this time.

As long as you have a view how much you can/are willing to deposit before you look back and say 'hang on this is too expensive' then you should be ok. Having the required amount on the site at the time is not necessary. This is not contradicting you pok3rplaya at all, only supplementing it.

5starpool

PokerSquid wrote:

Ste: good post. very helpful. thanks.

i'm curious though about the criticism of the flop bet. $6 vs. $4 seem trivial given the opponents stack. while the pot odds, etc. probably wouldn't be "right", is the loose player folding for $2 more?

I think part of the point that Ste may be making (without fully reading it) is that it is better to not bet half the pot without good reason, but to get into the habit of stronger betting, even if it is only $2 more in this instance.

PokerSquid

5starpool wrote:

I think part of the point that Ste may be making (without fully reading it) is that it is better to not bet half the pot without good reason, but to get into the habit of stronger betting, even if it is only $2 more in this instance.

you're right. actually, I don't think he was saying $4 wasn't enough.

but I think he was right about NOT being in the hand in the first place short stacked. AND, even more dead on about not betting into two players in this situation when the flop totally misses you.

Ste05

Dammit, just flying out the door on the way to the airport to catch a flight to Germany for the match. So no time to write a proper response but I was more talking about not routinely firing continuation bets on a flop with 2 other players that has completely missed us (and looks like it has too) and in all likelyhood has hit someone else, hence we are basically just throwing more money away.

If I think about it when I get back I'll post a proper response, I get a feeling my points about the flop bet and turn bet have been melded into one here and there's seperate reasons for each of my points....

pok3rplaya

5starpool wrote:

This is only really true when talking about your entire bankroll, whether this is real or notional i.e you only have 200 in your account, want to play 50NL but are easily prepared to put 200 more in if you lose it this time.

As long as you have a view how much you can/are willing to deposit before you look back and say 'hang on this is too expensive' then you should be ok. Having the required amount on the site at the time is not necessary. This is not contradicting you pok3rplaya at all, only supplementing it.

Nah you're right but it's just semantics really. I define my bankroll as being the total ammount of money I am willing to spend on poker ever.