Full table STT- AJ/AQ in EP

breadmonkey

I'm beginning to think that these hands should be a fold in EP. I am consistently having problems with these hands for the following reasons:

They can't really stand a reraise. e.g. I open UTG for 4 or 5 BBs. If anyone in MP reraises, I'm probably going to have to let it go or else I have to play a big pot oop with a marginal hand. Folding is also going to damage my table image and invite more reriases. Limping is pretty much out of the question since someone will probably correctly figure me for a marginal hand and raise me. (I would). Now I'm back to the first problem. So, what do you think? Simply binning them prevents any of this happening.

padser

Simply binning them though means your probably binning a +EV hand.

Personally I think it very much depends on the context of the game, certainly Id consider dropping AJo if the game was extremely agressive with lots of re raising pre flop however I would find it difficult to drop AQ in most unraised pots.

Maybe you might consider a smaller raise (3BB) when UTG. Provided you keep it consistent that your UTG raise is 3BB it shouldnt give away any knowledge about your hand, and will save you 1/2 BB everytime you are re raised and have to fold.

In an ideal world you would like to be able to vary your raise according to your hand strength, but this is impractical as it gives away too much information. However it makes sense (in my opinion) to vary your raise according to your table position, as your AVERAGE 'raising hand' in EP is less valauble then in LP, and by admitting this you are giving away no info (provided you are consistent) and thus your 3BB raise in EP should theoretically at least get a similar amount of respect as previously your 4/5BB got.

breadmonkey

I hear you and I might well try out what you suggested.

Another point is that I have been beating these tables (especially the extended ones), by just sitting tight and using position to pick up a few pots and generally picking up a big one with any premium. It's always a killer when I lose a chunk of my stack early on through these hands as it starts to eat into my stack and now all of a sudden I don't really have the chips to make moves in LP.

padser

Oh sorry, i didnt notice originally that it was a STT. I thought it was a cash game.

I would def consider chucking AJ in EP during the first 2, possibly 3 levels of a STT. I might even drop AQo in level 1 for exactly the same reasons as you mentioned. Those games are all about sitting tight for the first levels.

Gholimoli

STT’s are a very mechanical game. There are a few “How to …” guides out there that can pretty much sum the game up for you.
You can easily develop a system that can beat most of the STT’s .
Whether ppl figure out or don’t figure out what your raises mean don’t really matter much as you should be playing more the value of your hands rather than deceptive poker.
Dropping AJ,AQ from EP in the first few levels is not bad at all if the table calls for it.
If you have couple of maniacs on the table that are bound to get knocked out soon or knock others out then you can afford not to play them hands.
When the field gets shorter and the blinds get bigger you can then use your tight image to get involved in pots and take them down.

breadmonkey

Gholimoli wrote:

you should be playing more the value of your hands rather than deceptive poker.

I don't understand what you mean, could you explain a bit please?

peeko

When the field gets shorter and the blinds get bigger you can then use your tight image to get involved in pots and take them down.

this is something I think I personally disregarded as I got more confident with my play, and something that cost me a lot of money

Jaden

How do you play small PP in these positions? They have somewhat the same value pre flop, although small PP gets better with more players playing, AQ/J gets weaker. There isn't much in it. With Small PP I like limping in EP and play for set value. With AQ/J what are you playing for? Suited you have the flush possibility, or you are playing for a J/Q high board, or an A,x,x, board.

I don't see the trouble with limping.calling a small raise. If you are at an agressive table, then adjust accordingly. If someone raises in EP at my table, I will respect that move, and could drop a small PP or decent Ace, or Strong King.

You have a decent hand, don't hide your light under a bushel.

I generally have little trouble dropping AJos in EP if I think it's wise to do so. Late on in MTT or STT this is a push hand.

Gholimoli

breadmonkey wrote:

I don't understand what you mean, could you explain a bit please?

What I mean is in early rounds you should just stick to playing premium hands that have good value and not be bothered that much about how to adjust the size of your raise.
These games are played with very shallow stacks which doesn’t leave room for much poker and you have a very good chance of beating these if you play them right, simply because most ppl don’t play them right.
Just play tight at the start and eventually open up your game and you should do fine.

Gholimoli

Jaden wrote:

How do you play small PP in these positions? They have somewhat the same value pre flop, although small PP gets better with more players playing, AQ/J gets weaker. There isn't much in it. With Small PP I like limping in EP and play for set value. With AQ/J what are you playing for? Suited you have the flush possibility, or you are playing for a J/Q high board, or an A,x,x, board.

I don't see the trouble with limping.calling a small raise. If you are at an agressive table, then adjust accordingly. If someone raises in EP at my table, I will respect that move, and could drop a small PP or decent Ace, or Strong King.

You have a decent hand, don't hide your light under a bushel.

I generally have little trouble dropping AJos in EP if I think it's wise to do so. Late on in MTT or STT this is a push hand.

The difference between small PP and hands like AJ,AQ are that you will not get in trouble with PP if you miss them and if you hit them you have the best hand majority of the time .
With AQ/AJ you will have trouble letting them go on a J/Q high flop where you may well be beat.

breadmonkey

I don't know Jaden. A good player will raise yu and put you to a decision. What's the plan if you limp call and an A comes on the flop?

Jaden

If you limp call and an A comes on the flop - Depends on the table. I bet the pot leading out, or sometimes check raise. If I get called by a decent player, I slow down. If it's a donk, I have been known to check/push.

Thankfully, I rarely play good players.

30something

Early in STTs and MTTS I like to evenly mix between calling folding and raising EP with AJoff A10off and small / medium pps. I'll bin anything worse. My raises will vary 2/3 BBs. As the Tourney goes on and you have a better idea of the table you can increase calls and raises if tight table and visa-versa if aggressive.

Pushing later on depends on stack size and image.

But that's me, note my signature!

PokerSquid

breadmonkey wrote:

I'm beginning to think that these hands should be a fold in EP. I am consistently having problems with these hands for the following reasons:

They can't really stand a reraise. e.g. I open UTG for 4 or 5 BBs. If anyone in MP reraises, I'm probably going to have to let it go or else I have to play a big pot oop with a marginal hand. Folding is also going to damage my table image and invite more reriases. Limping is pretty much out of the question since someone will probably correctly figure me for a marginal hand and raise me. (I would). Now I'm back to the first problem. So, what do you think? Simply binning them prevents any of this happening.

hmm, depends. i agree neither can really stand a re-raise, which is why if i play these in EP (and early in the game), i might only raise 2.5x or 3x BB. if you are raised big, less invested, you can then make the decision to muck or call. I tend to play a bit loose/aggressive, and I like to see flops.

A/Q i'm more likely to stay since you still dominate the K/Q or Q/J players. and 50/50 against Js or 10s. A/J I just don't get much luck with, and seems much harder to tell where you are in the hand. thus, tanking isn't a waste IMO. really depends on how horrible your competition is. i see K/Jo played like A/A a lot. I'll take A/Q or A/J vs. K/J for sure.

breadmonkey

Gholimoli wrote:

There are a few “How to …” guides out there that can pretty much sum the game up for you.

Could you name any?

Gholimoli wrote:

You can easily develop a system that can beat most of the STT’s .

Please elaborate:D

I've been working on it for a while and I'm definitely better but I just seem to have such mixed results. eg. I recently went 6 in a row ITM and then zilch in the following 4, 1 3rd place, and another two losses. I thought the system was good, but it obviously needs some improvement. p.s. These are only low stakes ($5) STTs so usually everyone is a QJ/KQ/KJ merchant (for example). It's rare that I would have anyone hammering on my blind etc

Sangre

breadmonkey wrote:

I don't understand what you mean, could you explain a bit please?

Basically at higher levels you need to disguise the strength or your hands or you won't get action from them. At your levels people can't lay down 10101+ so it doesn't matter if you're giving off blatent AA signals.

breadmonkey

Sangre wrote:

Basically at higher levels you need to disguise the strength or your hands or you won't get action from them. At your levels people can't lay down 10101+ so it doesn't matter if you're giving off blatent AA signals.

Your binary mystifies me;)