Fast throws and San Shou

Niall Keane

Here’s some clips of what we’re doing up in Rathmines and UCD.

http://www.putfile.com/sandaeire

I’ve read a few recent threads about developing fast takedowns and throws; well san shou is all about that, you have 3 seconds once connected to throw your opponent to the ground if you want to score. What’s different, I can’t claim to be an authority but many practitioners I’ve come across from grappling styles tend to fall in order to throw the opponent, i.e. the truth of “he can’t support my weight”. What’s different about San Shou is that you have to remain standing, so it’s more about leverage and maintaining balance.
Personally I’m not interested in style versus style, we all have our own truths, and styles wouldn’t exist if they weren’t effective. Fundamentally fighters make fights and all fighters have their own style. If anyone wants to come down from time to time feel free, (for fighters of other disciplines wanting sparring practice it will be free), I’m no charity, the way I look at it, it provides a broader perspective for my own students. Any way anyone interested check the website for details on classes:

http://www.freewebs.com/sanshou

or call me on 087-9421255

Regards,
Niall

paddyc

Niall how you keeping, watched them and some nice stuff there..

Just wonderin how long the lads sparring have been at it and also how would a lad thats good at thai and judo fair in a match like that? thanks

paddy

TwoKingMick

Niall Keane wrote:

many practitioners I’ve come across from grappling styles tend to fall in order to throw the opponent, i.e. the truth of “he can’t support my weight”.

I've been telling people that for ages. I like to call it the grab and fall over method.

Clive

Anyone interested should definitely take the chance to train with Niall and his lads.

A top competitor, good at breaking things down (either in Chinese terms and concepts or plain aul' English) and a nice bloke to boot!

Budo.Judo.Kev

I was interested in this but having looked at the 2nd video (which has taken my a long time to see, doesn't work on either my mac or linux straight away), the training looks like tai-chi, and the pad and grappling isn't sparring but drills that i don't see being all that effective. The fights look like the MMAleage with headshots minus the ground fighting. Is it yourself in the fights Niall?

Niall Keane

Allright lads,
Paddy, nice to hear from ya, the lads have been training between 3 and 7 months. Thai and Judo are real i.e. resistant arts, and I respect them alot, maybe you know Michael for Lithuania, he trians with me in San Shou and goes to UCD Bridgestone on Mondays/ Tuesdays, I've always encouraged this, in a sanshou match I can only speak from experience, I have fought lads who have come from the Vipers, Vos and Peacock gyms, as far as thai goes, ( in Eastern Europe its the same lads in Thai and San Shou) (lets face it fighters make fights) those who trained for sanshou usually did very well, e.g. their kicks always were aimed downwards to inhibit a throw if you get me, they never knee'd more than twice in a clinch to prevent a take down etc. Those who didn't train for the format were easily taken apart. It's really hard to explain this in a written conservation, but if you get me, it comes down to transition and transformation, any strike normally in striking arts is delivered and returns to guard ( I know I'm being resticted in imagionation here). In san shou there is always the possibility / intention of a punch say, being left out (this means the other hand has to be trained enough to protect both sides, at that moment) to adhere and become leverage in a throw. This is the essence of the fast throw. Obviously there are faints and draws, sometimes we'll initiate a "flawed" attack to counter the counter if you get what I'm saying. Sorry my words hinder a true explanation. Although Knees and throws were left out of the clip I displayed this is because the lads there were novices, for those training San Da i.e. pro rules chinese kickboxing, both are allowed, in most comps elbows are in the strict sence not allowed to the head, but are allowed to the body, this leaves an opening, "if a fighter aims for the body / say shoulder, but hits the head its o.k. so you can guess that in the ring dirty tactics are usually employed, so awareness of elbow techniques is necessary. Then the tactic is as the elbow is a great counter to grappling, you have to draw it out, expect forehand and reverse, and so counter with a throw or step out of range and counter with a punch, I 'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't allready know.
For Judo the throwing techniques are similar, but we're wearing gloves, so we adhere and grab with the fore arms, bone to bone. A true San shou / Tai chi fighter won't bother with wrist locks for example, the attitude (if you grab me I don't have to grab you), plus once someone grasps, they have to release in order to punch. San Shou is about grabbing with the fore arms, legs, body etc. and if it fails we return to punching/ hurting the opponent for being successful. Counters of counters of counters are trained, giving up onesself to follow the opponent is the essence, not as simple as if forward pressure doesn't work, so I'll go back, but a more circular, enigmatic approach. This allows someone to have takedowns in several directons,(able to intelligently deal with realignment of weight distribution, structure etc) with the same root atack / defense. He initiates movement but I arrive first as the classics state.
Personally for San Shou, I believe in training and sparing all ranges together so that there are no mental gaps, (technique suffers under pressure) a strike transforms to become a throw, fainting a throw or strike to become the other, offering a seemingly week striking or throwing technique to become a strong opposite. No seperation of technique, the thai boxers I have had the fortune of meeting who won san shou competions, had a fluidity in their game, those who lost inevitably seperated ranges, "now I'm boxing, now I'm kicking' now I'm grappling", as even a spectator it becomes an obvious outcome. I believe the Origional Thai incorporated throws, for a thai boxer, I would think this would be a more effective training method than seeking another art. There is a Chinese expression about those who practiced many arts seperatly: "one hundres blades, none of them sharp!" Can a Judo Expert understand the intricies of the thai system?
Can a thai boxer without, grappling skills, understand the reasoning behind Judo technique?
Perhaps, if truely gifted, but is this inate or trained ability?

Clive,
nice to hear from ya, we'll have to have a scoop soon!

Regards Lads,

There are no styles, every fighter has his own,

Niall

Niall Keane

Budo,
yoru're right, it is Tai chi Chuan triaining methods, in the second clip, there is no sparring, just training drills. Sparring and it's outcome belongs in the gym. As for their effectiveness, well I've won 7 internationals, came 2nd in a European and am currently ranked 4th in the world pro-San Da rankings. The lads my students in the first clip weigh between 70 and 75 kg, they'll naturally move faster. I've always fought despite being currently 81 kg in the under 90kg and open weight. If you find it cautious and boring, well a single good punch at this weight means K.O. Plus as I've always said fighters make fights, the last amateur fight I did I won round 1: 26-0 and round 2: 37-0 and broke my opponents femur. I felt no achievement for doing this, if you'd like some advice about fighting train your guard, this is the difference between amateur and pro, a good amateur has a good guard, even an average pro has one, but he knows how to let it seem to falter at the right moment in order to entice a reaction he know's will come and is prepared for!
Regards,
Niall

Budo.Judo.Kev

Fair play.

paddyc

thanks for the reply niall

I started Judo last night and regardless of the fact that i am well sore i have to say i enjoyed it immensely and hope to train now every wednesday from now on.

But i was thinking about it last night about how judo lads use the grip for throws and you lads can throw with gloves on, is this a hard thing to be able to do??? (throw with out grabbing him)

also any where i might get a look at some good san shou fights eg high light clips etc


thanks paddy

Budo.Judo.Kev

hi Paddy,

i know you didn't ask me but I personally find it very difficult to do any judo stuff with boxing gloves on. Judo is built on the principle of getting a good grip of your opponents gi and throwing him.

So when you fight someone who is topless it is very difficult to throw them from a judo perspective even if you have no gloves on. it's doubly harder when you are wearing boxing gloves.

Im SBG MMA the sparring usually goes, boxing, kickboxing, MMA so usually one is wearing the boxing gloves when you start the takedowns and striking part of the sparring session. This i think just encourages people to clinch and strike or go for double legs.

Looking at the san shou clips the throws are rather different and Niall mentioned the use of the forearms to grasp your opponent (you're obviously familar with this stuff from Thai). it is my current opinion that the san shou guys can really only throw each other cause they're throwing big kicks. This style of grappling in my opinion wouldn't work well in a Submission wresetling style encounter. Of course, judo throws would not work well in san shou either.

I practive Ippon seoi nage with boxing gloves on and it's improving.

Niall Keane

Paddy, Budo,
Sorry about the delay in response, been away. Paddy, one of the skills emphasized in Tai Chi Chuan is adherence, an idea of smoothly connecting to the bones of your opponent, I don’t think I’ll be able to do this any justice in a written format, but for e.g. take the arms, first we do “tui-shou” training and try to stick (at first with hardness, heavily – yang) to the opponents arms and manipulate him into locks etc. by turning his arms by twisting our arms, e.g. twisting the forearm bones into the opponent to manipulate his triceps, gradually we learn to do this softly, i.e. with the minimum amount of yang, this hinders the opponents perception of what’s going on and also allows us to quickly change. This skill is a key to sanshou, the ability not to fixate and to be instantly aware of all possible techniques. Now I have to say that this is the main aim of sanshou, hence the 3 second throw rule, it stems from Chan / Zen ideas such as the immovable mind, (because it is everywhere) Takuan and Musashi have written about this, Daoists have their idea of “embracing the one”, of no separation with the immediate moment. Anyway, not to get too bogged down in theory, once this skill is acquired, wearing gloves doesn’t really matter. My own coach Paul Mitchell took part in the IMAF 2005 World Shuai Jaoi - Chinese Jacket wrestling championships and won – without conceding a single point. (67 countries) So I guess the practice has some merit.
Budo, the big kicks you refer to I expect are roundhouse kicks, these are used in sanshou, as they are the harder to evade and throw, push kicks and others only require a slight twist out of the way and a scoop to catch, this is usually followed by continuing the lift and sweeping the other leg. If you don’t see them it’s probably for a good reason, after all you can hardly say that kung fu has a limited amount of kicking techniques?
Paddy have a look in the San Da – video section of my site, and check some of Cung Lee’s, Boston San Shou’s and Marvin Perry’s videos, you can goggle them. Some of the Chinese stuff is sweeter, but harder to find. Burmese Boxing is called Lei Tai, the old name for San shou, the name of the platform, I’ve come across some Put file Clips of this.
All the best lads,
Niall