$1/$2 NL, unpleasant river decision.

Lafortezza

Villain is in the cutoff with $526.73 has been playing reasonably standard, a bit looser than average, has made money by calling down people with reasonable hands, JJ on a Q-high board. He's aggressive but his bet sizes vary alot.

Hero is in the SB with $235.05, I've been pretty aggressive, especially in LP. I haven't shown down anything bad/dodgy, but I haven't shown down much.


I get [ Qd, Qs ] in the SB
4 folds, one caller
Villain min-raises to $4 from the cutoff.

I raise to 14 total from the SB.
Folded to Villain who min-re-raises to $24 total.
I call. Headsup to the flop.

Pot is $49 Flop: [ 9s, 3d, 8c ]

I check, Villain bets (22.90)
I call (22.90)

Pot is $95 Turn [ Jh ]
Hero checks.
Villain bets (47.51)
Hero calls (47.51)

Pot is $190 River [ 9c ]
Hero checks.
Villain bets (85)
Hero....

I have $140 left when Villain bets $85 on the river.

Gholimoli

getting more than 3:1 you have to call here.
you have played the hand well and unless i know something about villain i woudl play it the same way.
making it 4 pre-flop and then coming over the top of your raise does suck but unless i have seen him do this before with AA,KK im not automatically going to give him cridet for it.
he has AK/AQ/AJ enough times here for our call to be correct.
no matter what happens this villain sucks and you will get him later.

Marq

I make a crying call here

Lafortezza

Gholimoli wrote:

getting more than 3:1 you have to call here.

What kind of hand range do you think Villain has to bet each street in the way he did?
I was happy with the way I played it, although I think a blocking bet on the river would have been better than checking.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

getting more than 3:1 you have to call here.
you have played the hand well and unless i know something about villain i woudl play it the same way.
making it 4 pre-flop and then coming over the top of your raise does suck but unless i have seen him do this before with AA,KK im not automatically going to give him cridet for it.
he has AK/AQ/AJ enough times here for our call to be correct.
no matter what happens this villain sucks and you will get him later.

what site do you see people min raise and min re-raise PF with AJ/AQ/AK? I want in...

fuzzbox

See my JJ hand for help on how to play it !!!


He has AA, and even if he has KK or JJ, they both beat you too. But pay him off if you must.

pok3rplaya

pf I like. Reraise is good size. Calling the 4bet is good because of the gread pot odds and implied odds we have. At thins point I am thinking he has AA/KK.

Flop is ok because his range is basically AA/KK/JJ/AK and thats stretching it. Also his bet is pretty small. If you had check/folded the flop I would have said nice hand but the call is ok.

Turn is where you go wrong in my opinion. Only a tiny and unlikely % of his range that we can beat will bet here. I would say we are ahead on the turn maybe 15% of the time. It's not worth calling.

As played I still fold the river. It seems he has a bet sizing problem and weak bets don't mean weak hands for him. Even though we are getting 3:1 there is no way we are ahead often enough. I think this is AA/KK 90% of the time.

Lafortezza

Ok, I folded the river after a long dwell up.
Given his preflop action, there's no hands that I can sensibly be ahead of that pull the trigger on all streets.
Villains river bet stinks of a value bet.

Worst thing is never knowing if you made the correct decision by folding.

Gholimoli

You’re checking on every street.
One reason is to induce bluffs. When you do this then you must call.
You cant ask/want ppl to bluff at you and then not call when they do.
The same with blocking bets…
When you make a blocking bet then you must fold if villain comes over the top.
That’s the whole point of them.you induce a bluff then you call a bet and when you put in a blocking bet you fold to a bet…
If you were intending to fold the river why call the turn?
What has changed?
Villain was always going to bet on the river regardless of what he had .yes its often AA,KK here but the way you have played the hand he could just as well be doing this with AK,AQ/TT.
Do you think if villain had AK/AQ and reraised pref lop with it then missed the flop ,he is not gonna have ago when you check to him?
Do you think its not possible that he could have a go on the turn when you again check to him?
And if he has missed his hand all together then he can only win with a bluff so that’s what he does on the river.
Im not saying he is deffo bluffing but when your playing a hand in a manner that induces a bluff then you should call when there is bet in to you .

cardshark202

You should have folded the flop imo. If he doesn't have AA there I think I'll quit poker.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

You’re checking on every street.
One reason is to induce bluffs. When you do this then you must call.
You cant ask/want ppl to bluff at you and then not call when they do.
The same with blocking bets…
When you make a blocking bet then you must fold if villain comes over the top.
That’s the whole point of them.you induce a bluff then you call a bet and when you put in a blocking bet you fold to a bet…
If you were intending to fold the river why call the turn?
What has changed?
Villain was always going to bet on the river regardless of what he had .yes its often AA,KK here but the way you have played the hand he could just as well be doing this with AK,AQ/TT.
Do you think if villain had AK/AQ and reraised pref lop with it then missed the flop ,he is not gonna have ago when you check to him?
Do you think its not possible that he could have a go on the turn when you again check to him?
And if he has missed his hand all together then he can only win with a bluff so that’s what he does on the river.
Im not saying he is deffo bluffing but when your playing a hand in a manner that induces a bluff then you should call when there is bet in to you .

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

He's already told us that he has AA. We arent inducing bluffs anymore, we are playing for set value.

Players like this NEVER play AK/AQ/TT this way.
He has AA/KK here pretty much every time. When he doesnt - he has JJ.


btw - the thing that has changed between turn and river is :
- He has bet the river, when he figures that you will call a large % of the time.

cooker3

I really can't see what hands you can be beating, I don't agree with Gholi, I think he nearly always has AA and maybe KK.
I can't see anyone doing 2 min raises pf with AJ etc
so I can understand flop call but chances are I will lay down here, turn I definately lay it down.

Lafortezza

I called the turn because I'm hoping to pick off a bluff (AK, TT, other pocket pair, AJ, whatever) that gives up on the river.
Or maybe he has a slightly scared KK that will check behind on the river and let me get to showdown. It's possible I've been slowplaying a set as well as some kind of a draw or QQ.

I fold the river cos I can't see any hands that I beat, that he will play this way and then seemingly value bet on that river. If I was to put money on it I'd say he has AA or JJ, KK third.

ntlbell

I love you two....

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

He's already told us that he has AA. We arent inducing bluffs anymore, we are playing for set value.

Players like this NEVER play AK/AQ/TT this way.
He has AA/KK here pretty much every time. When he doesnt - he has JJ.


btw - the thing that has changed between turn and river is :
- He has bet the river, when he figures that you will call a large % of the time.

How are you playing for set value when his betting close to half the pot on every street?
Do you think your getting correct odds to draw to your set?
So you shouldn’t be playing for set value.
Again I agree that we are beat more often than not here but IMO things haven’t changed from turn to river?
If villain was bluffing here he is not going to go away on the river.
If a bluff is his only way of winning the hand then he is going to try it.
Laf you said “Or maybe he has a slightly scared KK that will check behind on the river and let me get to showdown” .i don’t see any point in this as your still beat.
So calling the turn in the hope of him having a scared KK to let you see show down has no merit.

ntlbell

I think he was referring to the pre-flop call, PF he's telling us he has KK/AA so we call for set value hence fuzz pointed him to the JJ thread.

Gholimoli

ntlbell wrote:

I think he was referring to the pre-flop call, PF he's telling us he has KK/AA so we call for set value hence fuzz pointed him to the JJ thread.

fair enough but we didnt get there so why are we calling flop,turn bets then?

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

fair enough but we didnt get there so why are we calling flop,turn bets then?

You said he played it well and you play it the same, you tell me.

I fold the flop.

Gholimoli

ntlbell wrote:

You said he played it well and you play it the same, you tell me.

I fold the flop.

im calling the river bet.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

im calling the river bet.

Gholimadman wrote:

you have played the hand well and unless i know something about villain i woudl play it the same way.

Why would you call the flop/turn/river ? What can you beat that min raises/min re-raises PF?

As you asked, why are we calling flop/turn/river ?

Gholimoli

ntlbell wrote:

Why would you call the flop/turn/river ? What can you beat that min raises/min re-raises PF?

As you asked, why are we calling flop/turn/river ?

Brian,
When he first posted the hand he hadn’t said he folded the flop bet .i replied saying I would play the same way and I also said I would call the river bet.
Then in a later post he said he folded.
I think the worse thing you can do is fold here.
If we called the bet on the turn thinking we can be ahead some times then not much has changed so we have to call the river.
He is getting more than 3:1 on his money. That means villain has to only have TT/AJ/AK/QJ/KJ or something we can beat 25% of the time for the call to be good.
Now I know he made it 4 pre flop and then came over the top of our raise but that has nothing to do with our decision from turn to river.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

Brian,
When he first posted the hand he hadn’t said he folded the flop bet .i replied saying I would play the same way and I also said I would call the river bet.
Then in a later post he said he folded.
I think the worse thing you can do is fold here.
If we called the bet on the turn thinking we can be ahead some times then not much has changed so we have to call the river.
He is getting more than 3:1 on his money. That means villain has to only have TT/AJ/AK/QJ/KJ or something we can beat 25% of the time for the call to be good.

Now I know he made it 4 pre flop and then came over the top of our raise but that has nothing to do with our decision from turn to river.

What? He never said he folded the flop?

So as played you would play the hand the same way up to the river except you call the river.

Why have you got to the river?

Why are we calling the flop/turn?

I know it doesn't come into our decsion from turn to river but we should never get to the turn/river

TT/AJ/AK/QJ/KJ won't play this hand that way even 10% of the time IMO

Gholimoli

ntlbell wrote:

What? He never said he folded the flop?

So as played you would play the hand the same way up to the river except you call the river.

Why have you got to the river?

Why are we calling the flop/turn?

I know it doesn't come into our decsion from turn to river but we should never get to the turn/river

TT/AJ/AK/QJ/KJ won't play this hand that way even 10% of the time IMO

I have raised in position with 54s , got reraised and have come over the top with the third raise.
Making it 4 pre flop and then coming over the top of a reraise is bad poker. What makes you think that villain plays AA/KK badly like this but not any other hand?
I’ve seen plenty of ppl making all sort of weird plays with AK/AQ on missed boards etc.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

I have raised in position with 54s , got reraised and have come over the top with the third raise.
Making it 4 pre flop and then coming over the top of a reraise is bad poker. What makes you think that villain plays AA/KK badly like this but not any other hand?
I’ve seen plenty of ppl making all sort of weird plays with AK/AQ on missed boards etc.

It could be 72o for all we know but I have really only seen this sort of min raise min re-raise crap with AA/KK I don't see AK/AQ/TT/ here enough to make it profitable to go all the way with.

I'll play it for set value and I'm gone unless I have a very good reason to think other wise.

When you 3 bet 45s I'd be very worried if you were coming back over the top with a min re-raise.

This guy for me has telegraphed AA/KK If we track him down get the HH I'll give you 1k if it's not AA/KK

boba_fett3099

I think you need a v.good read on your opponent to check-call him all the way here hoping to induce a bluff. But as the hand has played out i agree with Gholi that this is a must call on the river, he only needs to be right 1 time in 4 for this to be profitable. Having said that i still fold on the turn.