Democracy is Dead

WexfordMusings

With General Elections less than a year away, GCN has just published a survey "The Mini Gay Youth Survey" which says that:

25% of those surveyed have "No Idea" about whom they are going to vote for & 24% of those surveyed "Don't care".

Now, these results do not come as a surprise to me, although they are rather worrying. More young people than ever before didn't vote in the last election with only about 50% of the electorate voting at all.

Well, let's think about it this way, if only half the electorate voted next time around and we could mobilise the whole Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual & Transgender population of Ireland to vote and as we are 10% of the population, it would mean the Gay vote would consist of 20% of those that voted. Now, that puts a different perspective on things, doesn't it? So ask yourself the question, "is Democracy Dead?”…

Well it's up to us, of course our own George Bernard Shaw did say:

"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve."

Hmm_Messiah

I don't think you should go into politics

the same exagerrated gay vote scenario was ridiculed in an earlier thread

btw:
In part answer to your question - is democracy dead? -

25% of those surveyed have "No Idea" about whom they are going to vote for & 24% of those surveyed "Don't care

Is in fact indicative of democracy functioning

WexfordMusings

Messiah,

The fact that 49% of youth do not know who to vote for or don't care tells me that Democracy and our Government is failing us. In my opinion, this is not Democracy functioning, but rather malfunctioning.

Even if my suggestion (i.e. over exagerated figures) can be ridiculed, if it results in more Gay, Lesbian, Transgender & Bisexual people getting out and voting, I for one would be happier. This for me, would be Democracy working a little better.

PS, who says I want to go into politics?

Stark

Hmm_Messiah, let's hear him out. I for one would love to hear his suggestion for getting 100% voter turnout among the LGBT youth population.

I bet it's right up there with getting free energy from magnets.

WexfordMusings

Okay, I go on another unpopular diatribe...

(as for magnets, will check that one out)

Democracy is Dead.

Democracy is supposedly for the people by the people. Majority rule is a means for organizing government and deciding public issues; it is not another road to oppression. Just as no self-appointed group has the right to oppress others, so no majority, even in a democracy, should take away the basic rights and freedoms of a minority group or individual.

Unfortunately, this is what is happening in Ireland today. The Governement today actively discriminates against Gay, Lesbian. Trasgender & Bisexual people. As long as the GLBT community meekly stands by with a growing apathy in their hearts that they cannot make a difference, well things will continue the way they are.

I would love to make voting obligatory, but of course that won't happen because what would happen to our freedom then. The least we could do is teach people in school about voting, how the government works, perhaps even a feeling of pride and belonging. Make everyone take an interest in what is going on around them, certainly admonish those that do nothing but then complain about their lot and who then don't vote.

People died in this country for the right to vote, for you and me and the least we could do is honour their committment to self governance. If the whole GLBT community came out and voted in the next election, I imagine huge change would be brought in. Of course Democracy is not just about voting every 4 or 5 years. It's a way of life. We shouldnt only wait for election time to be heard, we should be shouting form the roof tops, I am Irish, I have a right to be treated equally, not just because it's a nice sentiment but because of a little thing called the constitution, but then again people dont care anyway and know even less.

Sean

Hmm_Messiah

The fact that 49% of youth do not know who to

Its a fact is it now ?

Okay, I go on another unpopular diatribe...

Unpopular, diatribe,.....so why bother?

The Governement today actively discriminates against Gay, Lesbian. Trasgender & Bisexual people.

actively ? really ?

As long as the GLBT community meekly stands by with a growing apathy in their hearts that they cannot make a difference, well things will continue the way they are.

I had imagined there were significant works/actions being carried out by GLB advocacy groups, while apparently still managing to stand meekly

People died in this country for the right to vote, for you and me and the least we could do is honour their committment to self governance.

This country has a record of people "dying" for causes; that in itself is not a reason we should honour their deaths.

If the whole GLBT community came out and voted in the next election, I imagine huge change would be brought in.

what huge difference ? a few social justice issues sorted, then what? No need to work Mondays if you've been to the Bingo on Sunday ??

Stark

WexfordMusings wrote:

I would love to make voting obligatory, but of course that won't happen because what would happen to our freedom then.

You'll have to make it obligatory for gay and straight alike. So much for "20% of the vote" there.

WexfordMusings wrote:

If the whole GLBT community came out and voted in the next election, I imagine huge change would be brought in.

If

WexfordMusings wrote:

We shouldnt only wait for election time to be heard, we should be shouting form the roof tops, I am Irish, I have a right to be treated equally, not just because it's a nice sentiment but because of a little thing called the constitution, but then again people dont care anyway and know even less.

Well yes, that would be more productive than idling fantasing about a world where every gay that every there was goes out to the polls and all the straight people stay at home.

damien

It wasn't gay politicians and civil servants who decriminalised homosexuality, it was mostly straight ones. You need to make the majority believe in something to make it happen. It was a majority in one Government who believed in equality that brought about law changes. It's all the people you want to appeal to not a small section of a society.

Saying that, as mentioned on Tuppenceworth:

the number of seats with a winning margin of less than 500 doubled from the 1997 election to the 2002 one - from 9 to 18. Of those, in the last election, two were decided by less than 10 votes.

So maybe just a few gays can start a coup. Doubt it though.

damien

WexfordMusings wrote:

People died in this country for the right to vote, for you and me and the least we could do is honour their committment to self governance.

People die from eating peanuts too. For other people that die, google darwin awards. How do we honour their deaths? Do we want to be like the mid east honouring anyone that ends their life for a cause?

I am Irish, I have a right to be treated equally, not just because it's a nice sentiment but because of a little thing called the constitution, but then again people dont care anyway and know even less.

Cute and all that the sentiment is, remember it is said Constitution who have taken kids from their adopted parents and given them back to their "rightful" natural parents.
It is said Constitution that has told unmarried fathers they have no say if their kid is put up for adoption or fostered out.
It is said Constitution which UPHELD the law making homosexuality a crime.
It was said Constitution that told Jamie Synnott to leave his school when he turned 18 even if he was in need of more and constant education.

The equality defined in the Constitution and refined by Supreme Court judges allows plenty of discrimination perverting the aristotelian notion of treating equals equally and unequals unequally.

I think before you start this gay revolution and line up all the non-gay folks against the wall (arse to back) you should maybe figure out exactly what needs to be changed and how the system works.

UU

Here, here! Let me but into this thread now.

That survey was actually taken during the BelongTo sunday group two weeks ago. I took it (I voted for Sinn Féin btw)! And I must say, it wasn't something many of us there were expecting. WexfordMusings, I really don't think you can give a view on voting among the GLBT youth when you haven't been inside. I am an 18 year old gay male and I am very interested in politics. Many of my friends in BelongTo are also very aware of politics, voting and what changes they want if you read the article "Bright Young Things" featured in GCN. Just because we didn't all know exactly who we intend to vote for that doesn't mean we don't all care (24% put down "Don't care" which is rather high). Then again, that is only a survey from the 40 or so members present that sunday. GLBT youth is not just confined to BelongTo.

At present, BelongTo are introducing dramatic changes within and without. That survey was brought forward to help our directors decide what we should be informed about and what measures need to be taken. BelongTo are expanding throughout the country and will set up new centres in places like Galway, Kerry, Donegal, etc. They are strating to educate us in BelongTo on the importance of voting and involvement in politics. Political leaders such as David Norris have visited us on a few occasions in the past. Then again, many members in BelongTo are yet 18 so can't vote. It is an extremelly important issue, I do agree. That is why tis survey was conducted. Give us time and many will gain a sense of longing for full rights. I know that I will vote in the next general election and many GLBT youth will be encouraged to do so.

Btw, we do care strongly about Civil Partnerships / Marriage. In the survey these are the figures:

I prefer Civil Partnerships to full Marriage - 25%
I prefer full Marriage to Civil Partnerships - 65%
I don't care about Partnership Rights - 10%

Regards,

Daniel

Syth

What I would like to see is a listing of how 'gay-friendly' all the political parties (and individual TDs are). Help make an informed vote.

UU

Actually from reading the political adverts in GCN, it seems they are all "gay friendly". I've seen ones from Finne Fail, Sinn Fein, Labour, Fine Gael. Unlike countries such as the UK and France, Ireland doesn't really have any strong, homophobic (and racist) National Front Nazi parties like the BNP and BNF in Britain YET! Most of our parties IMO are very liberal compared to those in other countries and want to see changes in equality.

damien

This needs over-sized font:

WTF!

This "survey" was just on BelongTo members? And only 40 people at that? Did it follow standard surveying methods? I know GCN is stuck for quality content but my god. This is what Chuck Feeney has his money spent on?

UU congrats on supporting Sinn Fein, a party that believes in true equality. Oh and the murder of Gardai, oh and the kidnapping and murder of mothers.

damien

UU wrote:

Most of our parties IMO are very liberal compared to those in other countries and want to see changes in equality.

BelongTo needs to brainwash you a tad bit more then. France has civil unions/registrations. So does the UK. How is that if they have NAzi partys and we're more liberal?

Hmm_Messiah

I think some allowance has to be made for the age of some contributors.

But their contributions here are worrying. Talking of Liberalism and then affiliation to Sinn Fein . They "might" value a young gay person, but in the past they have seen no real value in human life if you are protestant, or disident etc.

And David Norris is not a "political leader" - you might demonstrate some movement within politics when you manage to discuss a gay issue in a political context and the named politicans are not - Norris.

I'm not sure what a "democracy is dead" thread has to do with a LGBT forum (specifically) . Rather than a survey on a group of young people some of whom have not yet had the entitlement to vote, it might of been more interesting to ask contributors to this forum specific questions :
"As a gay person what issues would you like on the political agenda"
"would you direct these same issues to politicans calling to your door"
"Will you vote for a specific party and why"
"do you see the gay community as having a political agenda"
"What do you think is the best strategy to acheiving specific entitlements for gay people"


Any answers giving would be no more national significant that those of a survey of 40 young people but might be more interesting to contributors here, older people woould hear the opinion of the younger members, younger peope might learn a little form the voice of older experienced people.

But like Damien said it is not gay people who will eventually legalise the much mentioned gay entitlements, it will be when the majority hold the opinion, or perhaps some enlightened minister pushes the agenda. A few yrs back who would believe that smoking would be outlawed in pubs.

The thing is that for many democracy is not dead, just dead boring

WexfordMusings

Now, maybe I'm a little niave here, so correct me if I am wrong.

I thought the Strasbourg ruling was the key to the changes. The main move to change the law in Ireland came from a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. In October 1988, it found Ireland to be in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights on the grounds of privacy, because sex between men was a crime. The case was taken by Senator David Norris, who is a member of the upper house of the Irish parliament. He had previously challenged the Constitutionality of the anti-gay laws in the High Court(1980) and Supreme Court (1982/83). In both cases the laws were upheld.

I believe that whichever Party/Government/Group were in charge after the Strasburg Ruling in 1988 would have had to change the law. I don't think the changing of the law was the choice of the then Government, but in fact a kind of instruction from Europe.

UU

damien.m wrote:

BelongTo needs to brainwash you a tad bit more then. France has civil unions/registrations. So does the UK. How is that if they have NAzi partys and we're more liberal?

Well fair enough, I can't argue with that statement. Although, these Nazi parties aren't in power in Britain not France but maybe it'd be best not to go there. I strongly believe that our government will bring in Civil Partnerships - they have plans to do so. But remember "Rome wasn't built in a day". Things like these take years to draw up, impliment, etc. The Civil Unions in UK and France took years to get established. We must be patient.

WexfordMusings

UU,

I would have to point out something at this stage...

You claim that these things take years to draw up. Well they have had 13 years.

You claim we must be patient, I ask why should we be patient. 13 years is long enough. Now, I am not advocating that the dail pulls an all nighter and comes up with a mickey mouse bill with huge glaring mistakes (like the one they tried to do when the whole "x" case was raging out of control) but with a few public consultations and parliamentery debates, I'm sure they could have something done before the next election, but I bet they wont.

Although saying that, if the legislation was done for the next election, it would certainly help a lot of people make up their minds who to vote for...

Annasopra

This "survey" was just on BelongTo members? And only 40 people at that? Did it follow standard surveying methods? I know GCN is stuck for quality content but my god. This is what Chuck Feeney has his money spent on?

The whole issue was produced by belong to Damien

BelongTo needs to brainwash you a tad bit more then.

Are you seriously suggesting Belong to is like some little cult?

Now, maybe I'm a little niave here, so correct me if I am wrong.

I thought the Strasbourg ruling was the key to the changes. The main move to change the law in Ireland came from a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. In October 1988, it found Ireland to be in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights on the grounds of privacy, because sex between men was a crime. The case was taken by Senator David Norris, who is a member of the upper house of the Irish parliament. He had previously challenged the Constitutionality of the anti-gay laws in the High Court(1980) and Supreme Court (1982/83). In both cases the laws were upheld.

I believe that whichever Party/Government/Group were in charge after the Strasburg Ruling in 1988 would have had to change the law. I don't think the changing of the law was the choice of the then Government, but in fact a kind of instruction from Europe.

I think you might be wrong. (I am not certain) but I think that the judgement did not have to be enforced in Ireland.

Form what I understand it was the choice of the then Fianna Fail / Labour coalition to legislate in 1993. The previous FF and FF/PD governments to all intents and purposes ignored the judgement between 1988 and 1993.

Michael McDowell is on the dail record as giving the Labour Party for pushing the law through on this issue

damien

WexfordMusings wrote:

I believe that whichever Party/Government/Group were in charge after the Strasburg Ruling in 1988 would have had to change the law. I don't think the changing of the law was the choice of the then Government, but in fact a kind of instruction from Europe.

Way back then the ECHR decisions were not binding. Some previous decisions pushed the Government to change the law due to the embarassment of an ECHR ruling. The then Government still chose not to change the law. The next Government did change it though. ECHR rulings are binding now.

damien

UU wrote:

Well fair enough, I can't argue with that statement. Although, these Nazi parties aren't in power in Britain not France but maybe it'd be best not to go there.

Getting proved wrong on every single word and sweeping generalisation you make must be tough alright.

I strongly believe that our government will bring in Civil Partnerships - they have plans to do so.

Where? Point out where these plans are? Draft headers of bills? Acts passed by the Oireachtas? Consultations?

But remember "Rome wasn't built in a day". Things like these take years to draw up, impliment, etc.

They do in their ****. Rome had a plan that was a little more than Bertie opening up a new office for the gays and saying he thinks we should be "allowed" to be equal.

The Civil Unions in UK and France took years to get established.

No they did not. They happened fairly bloody fast actually. Labour UK said do it and away it went. The campaigning to pressure the Governments and the politicians took years. When Labour decided to do it besides saying they were going to do it, then it happened. What about Spain? A new Government and full marriage rights happened in what 12 months, maybe 18?

We must be patient.

Being patient and being tremendously stupid are not the same thing. Those that constantly fight and argue and won't let the Government spin their way out of equality issues are patient. Those who believe Bertie and do nothing but sit down and wait and wait and wait and wait for 10+ years are the other category.

We can be pissed off, you can be patient. Enjoy the wait.

ApeXaviour

WexfordMusings wrote:

25% of those surveyed have "No Idea" about whom they are going to vote for & 24% of those surveyed "Don't care".

UU wrote:

Then again, that is only a survey from the 40 or so members present that sunday. GLBT youth is not just confined to BelongTo.

damien.m wrote:

This "survey" was just on BelongTo members? And only 40 people at that? Did it follow standard surveying methods?

Agreed, but not only that. How can it say 24% people said this, 25% said that when there were only 40 or so people? A one percent distinction does not exist.

This "survey" just doesn't wash really.

damien

Stat porn is sexy.

UU

For god's sake, calm down!

Let me propose something Damien. If you are ranting on and on why we do not have Civil Partnerships NOW then why don't you get up off your ass and do something! If you want change, petition, protest, etc. Yet, you are sitting here complaining to me as to why we don't have flaming CPs! Am I Bertie Ahern? - no. At least when I am wrong on something I can admit it and I don't need to be talked at in such rash and angry tone, thank you very much or I won't bother my time replying to you.

Thank You! :mad:

damien

UU wrote:

Let me propose something Damien. If you are ranting on and on why we do not have Civil Partnerships NOW then why don't you get up off your ass and do something!

You know, you might be justified if I wasn't doing anything.

UU

damien.m wrote:

You know, you might be justified if I wasn't doing anything.

Well that's good to hear. Now, try to be a bit nicer because people will actually take you seriously then.

damien

UU wrote:

Now, try to be a bit nicer because people will actually take you seriously then.

I'd suggest wearing a kevlar suit, before reality hits hard.

azezil

Democracy gives each individual the right to vote not the requirement to, and well I for one think its a true testament to the successful implementation of a democratic society when 49% of the BelongTo community don't feel the need to vote because they can't tell the difference between political parties, almost brings a tear to my eye! :')

Hmm_Messiah

azezil wrote:

Democracy gives each individual the right to vote not the requirement to, and well I for one think its a true testament to the successful implementation of a democratic society when 49% of the BelongTo community don't feel the need to vote because they can't tell the difference between political parties, almost brings a tear to my eye! :')

astute policitcal observation

and

almost brings a tear to my eye!

back to the good old gay innuendo much despised by those who don't get it

damien

azezil wrote:

Democracy gives each individual the right to vote not the requirement to

No it doesn't. Democracy means being ruled by the people. Liberal participation rules do not come into it. Belgium, Australia, Agrentina and the birthplace of democracy (and gays!), Greece, all have mandatory voting. Many countries were democracies but restricted who could actually vote too. Who and how to vote and whether it is mandatory or not, are not contained in the definitions of democracy. Funnily enough in countries where voting is mandatory, the people are far more in tune to how their political system works.

azezil

*sniffles* its just beautiful