Cable company obligations

professore

I am thinking about getting a Freeview satellite setup and currently have cable. What I want to know is - do the cable company have an obilgation to continue providing RTE for free?

Tony

No

watty

The cable company don't provide ANYTHING free. No sub = no channels.

Freeview = UK Terrestrial Digital (Not Satellite). A BBC Trade name

Freesat from Sky = Free To View = Digibox and card only sent to UK/NI Postcode addresses.

Free to Air = Satellite without a viewing card (Technically also all terrestrial analog and Digital Terrestrial that does not need a card, but universally taken to refer to Satellite nowadays).

legend99

Tony wrote:

No

The Chorus analog cable that has run in Cork since the eigthies carries the 4 Irish channels unencrypted. No idea if/when they fully upgrade to digital if they will drop this. I assume they will.

You also occasionaly get a day or two of a pay channel (Sky1, Sports) for free almost as if to try and tempt you to sign up.

professore

watty wrote:

The cable company don't provide ANYTHING free. No sub = no channels.

Freeview = UK Terrestrial Digital (Not Satellite). A BBC Trade name

Freesat from Sky = Free To View = Digibox and card only sent to UK/NI Postcode addresses.

Free to Air = Satellite without a viewing card (Technically also all terrestrial analog and Digital Terrestrial that does not need a card, but universally taken to refer to Satellite nowadays).

Thanks watty. Makes sense for them I suppose.

watty

legend99 wrote:

The Chorus analog cable that has run in Cork since the eigthies carries the 4 Irish channels unencrypted. No idea if/when they fully upgrade to digital if they will drop this. I assume they will.

You also occasionaly get a day or two of a pay channel (Sky1, Sports) for free almost as if to try and tempt you to sign up.

yes but it isn't free. It is specifically mentioned in Irish legislation as an offence to connect to a cable system AT ALL, without the correct subscription for the channel you receive.

Off Air MMDS is "clear" (unencrypted) is a grey area, but again if you use the cable company dish & LNB to receive even clear MMDS it is regarded as theft, "tapping in to a cable" without subscription.

Technically you could in court argue that using your OWN dish, LNB etc to receive CLEAR MMDS is not tapping a cable, but no-one has proved this in court. Receiving Encryped MMDS even with all your own gear would be piracy even by normal TV standards apart from "cable TV" issues.

legend99

watty wrote:

yes but it isn't free. It is specifically mentioned in Irish legislation as an offence to connect to a cable system AT ALL, without the correct subscription for the channel you receive.

Off Air MMDS is "clear" (unencrypted) is a grey area, but again if you use the cable company dish & LNB to receive even clear MMDS it is regarded as theft, "tapping in to a cable" without subscription.

Technically you could in court argue that using your OWN dish, LNB etc to receive CLEAR MMDS is not tapping a cable, but no-one has proved this in court. Receiving Encryped MMDS even with all your own gear would be piracy even by normal TV standards apart from "cable TV" issues.

Never tapped in....it is a leftover connection that was paid for and installed by Chorus many years ago. When the subscription was ended they took the back the 'black box' and reconnected the cable into the TV and manually tuned in the 4 stations...

watty

Counts as a Tap. They could charge you. Cable company operatives are famous for connecting customers to cable without the company knowing.

You would be safer getting an aerial and cutting plug off cable, then they can't charge you back rental.

Ulsterman 1690

In the UK cable companies are obliged by law to continue providing the basic five "national channels" even if you cancel your sub

(I think this is something to do with why a cancelled $ky subscription card will usually still work for FTV channels)

There is however no such law in the Republic of Ireland however the validity of the Irish "cable tapping" laws (amazingly only introduced in 1990) have always been a bit dubious given the way cable is distributed in Ireland i.e. running cable across private property (usually) without bothering to ask for permission.

As for those cable connections which are still active despite the subscription having longsince lapsed I doubt that they could succsfully prosecute for this.
For one thing short of getting a warrant to force their way into your home how would they ever know whether your TV was still connected or not ?

Some of the Republics cable systems are notoriously leaky to the extent that one can often quite easily recieve the FM radio services (and sometimes one or two TV channels as well) without ANY physical connection to the cable network :eek:

zilog_jones

Yeah, channel 4 (somewhere on Band III) is almost watchable in my house from a TV nowhere near the cable! And I've been able to hear TV channels in other houses too.

cubix

Watty when you say "Off Air MMDS is "clear" (unencrypted) is a grey area, but again if you use the cable company dish & LNB to receive even clear MMDS it is regarded as theft, "tapping in to a cable" without subscription" what off air mmds stations are available in the clear on the mmds service in dublin if any?. I have the Ntl mmds digital service in the house with the digital basic+choice setup,is there stations out there you can get. Also a bit off topic but becuase film four is free to air is it now on these packages

Thanks Cubix

watty

I have no idea.

About 3 years ago I looked with totally all my own gear, in Limerick and the picture quality was rubbish. About 6 channels clear. I tried both Woodcock and Roxborough/Keeper directions.

Seeing the service in other peoples house the Analog MMS and Analog cable is rubbish. The Digital versions are only just acceptable quality.

I set up a FTA sat for one bloke recently as a favour and he could not beleive the difference. Nor that the UTV was perfect even when dish was lying on the driveway! He doesn't sub to Chorus anymore.


Since you have the NTL MMDS, it has NO analog. (As should be case on Chorus MMDS) as that is the only way they can fit a decent number of channels.

What you already pay for is what you get. If you want more for free, get a FTA satellite system.

NTL do not transmit analog MMDS anywhere. Since Chorus and NTL are now UPC, either the Chorus MMDS will be made the same as NTL, or nothing will done as MMDS is to be scrapped in present form in a year or two.

cubix

watty wrote:

or nothing will done as MMDS is to be scrapped in present form in a year or two.

Any idea what is going to superseed mmds will it still be ariel based or do they hope to have the country covered with cable:D .

zilog_jones

I really can't see them scrapping MMDS any time soon. There are so many areas covered by MMDS that would just not be feasible to cable - I know a lot of people out in the middle of nowhere in the country with it. And then there's places were they just never bothered their hole cabling, e.g. the majority of Limerick city built after the '80s, Kilkee and probably a load of other small towns, etc.

Or do you just mean they plan on a whole redevelopment of the MMDS system, possibly using different codecs/bands/whatever?

watty

It definately is getting scrapped the Great Comreg has said so. MMDS is not allowed on that frequency in Harmonised Europe. We broke the rules.


UPC of course may not care for MMDS as it is at all as it does not carry broadband and phone. And while ex-NTL upgraded all theirs to Digital, the ex-Chorus bit of UPC's MMDS is the lion share and very bad. And 1/2 or all analog depending on area.

Everyone now believes in Triple or Quad Play. Even Sky is offering Broadband via DSL in UK free.

watty

cubix wrote:

Any idea what is going to superseed mmds will it still be ariel based or do they hope to have the country covered with cable:D .

The political reason for half baked MMDS was NOT for multichannel TV, but ITV and BBC.

The whole country gets that by satellite free. It is truely amazing how many (analog) MMDS customers when they actually get a demo of Free to Air , no susbscription, no Sky box satellite buy it at once and ditch Chorus MMDS.

If C4 ditch Big Brother or C4 joins BBC/ITV as Free To Air, then MMDS is terminal.

Even the NTL all digital version can only do 60 to 70 channels. There are easly that many good free channels on Satellite and how many of the NTL MMDS channels are good.

If you *really* want multichannel pay TV than it is NTL 200 channel Cable or Sky 800 channel Satellite that has the "full" choice.

With satellite there is even non-Sky pay TV. With cable you either like UPC or have nothing. With pay Satellite if you cancell you have AT LEAST 45 decent TV and 20 decent Radio.

BUT digital cable gives low cost phone and broadband. Sky can't do that in Ireland.

So there are pros and cons between Digital Cable and Sky or FTA Satellite, but Digital MMDS's ONLY advantage is C4. Analog MMDS may have C4, but in many areas the 11 ch analogue MMDS is abysmal quality.

And even that can be achieved on Satellite in Ireland without a subscription

gerryo

watty wrote:

yes but it isn't free. It is specifically mentioned in Irish legislation as an offence to connect to a cable system AT ALL, without the correct subscription for the channel you receive.

Off Air MMDS is "clear" (unencrypted) is a grey area, but again if you use the cable company dish & LNB to receive even clear MMDS it is regarded as theft, "tapping in to a cable" without subscription.

Technically you could in court argue that using your OWN dish, LNB etc to receive CLEAR MMDS is not tapping a cable, but no-one has proved this in court. Receiving Encryped MMDS even with all your own gear would be piracy even by normal TV standards apart from "cable TV" issues.

So if the cable co. transmits premium channels "in the clear" through technical misadventure, customers without subscriptions covering such program content are (technically) breaking the law by watching.:rolleyes:

I would imagine receiving MMDS in the clear is probably an offence, unless you pay for it, you are not entitled to view it, own gear or not.

Irish courts view MMDS systems as similar to cable TV installations, would be a "fun" day in court.

bk

DTT may also finish off MMDS, specially if it manages to get BBC/ITV/C4

NTL and Sky in the UK are going triple play as they recognise that the pay TV market is dying in the UK due to the massive success of Freeview, backed up by FTA satellite in rural areas.

If DTT is done in the correct way here in Ireland it could have the same effect. It would also be nice if RTE went FTA on sat.

zilog_jones

watty wrote:

If C4 ditch Big Brother or C4 joins BBC/ITV as Free To Air, then MMDS is terminal.

Lol, there are, you know, GOOD programs on channel 4 as well!

Even the NTL all digital version can only do 60 to 70 channels. There are easly that many good free channels on Satellite and how many of the NTL MMDS channels are good.

The majority of the FTA channels on Astra 2/Eurobird are complete cat. Outside of the BBCs, ITVs (to an extent), some news channels and Extreme Sports , there is pretty much nothing worth watching. With analogue MMDS you get Channel 4, TV3 (without needing an extra aerial), Sky One/News, Eurosport, Discovery and some others - even if the reception is shyte. Even better for digital MMDS - there's some slight amount of quality programming in there.

watty

gerryo wrote:

So if the cable co. transmits premium channels "in the clear" through technical misadventure, customers without subscriptions covering such program content are (technically) breaking the law by watching.:rolleyes:

I would imagine receiving MMDS in the clear is probably an offence, unless you pay for it, you are not entitled to view it, own gear or not.

Irish courts view MMDS systems as similar to cable TV installations, would be a "fun" day in court.

Yes the issue of of Analogue PAL MMDS in clear has not been tested in Courts. The Analogue MMDS isn't even FM like Analogue satellite. In the Clear it is identical to ordinary PAL broadcast, except 2Ghz higher in frequency.

I'd guess Joe Soap would be using Filched Cable Co gear, and people that actually have their own equipment to do this are not going to waste time on it so unlikely ever to be tested.

RTE & Comreg regard Satellite as Wireless Cable, Just like MMDS, which is obvious nonsense.

watty

zilog_jones wrote:

The majority of the FTA channels on Astra 2/Eurobird are complete cat. Outside of the BBCs, ITVs (to an extent), some news channels and Extreme Sports , there is pretty much nothing worth watching. With analogue MMDS you get Channel 4, TV3 (without needing an extra aerial), Sky One/News, Eurosport, Discovery and some others - even if the reception is shyte. Even better for digital MMDS - there's some slight amount of quality programming in there.

TV3 is similar enough to ITV
CNN, Sky News, Euronews, BBC News 24 FTA on Sat.

Analog MMDS you pay the same as basic Sky pack for about 4 pay TV channels. See Knowledge pack and Variety pack.

TV3 is rubbish on Analog MMDS compared with a Real TV aerial TV3 & TG4, once off expense

There are about 45 good FTA on 28E and 230 Rubbish ones. ON a non-SKy receiver you can delete the rubbish.

zilog_jones

45 "good" FTA channels? Highly dubious.

OK, I haven't looked recently, but I tuned all the FTA channels I could find at 28.2 degrees East at my friends house around this time last year. The only things remotely watchable were the BBCs and the news channels. There were a couple others (like Extreme Sports) but they're quite limited-interest and do a lot of repeating. We had some fun watching dodgy Chinese soaps and Bollywood movies, but I can only watch stuff in languages I don't understand (with no subtitles) for so long.

So there's the 4 BBCs, 4 ITVs (and as you know half of TV3 is identical to ITV1 anyway), the 4 news channels you mentioned, FilmFour, and about 4-8 other rather mediocre channels which may be of no interest at all to many people. So that's like 20 channels at the most, and even then 4 news channels is kinda overwhelming.

The Sky packages are very limiting. OK, analogue MMDS isn't really a comparison, but with the basic Chorus digital MMDS package or even the crappy analogue cable in Limerick you get a half-decent variety, i.e. you get Eurosport, Discovery and Discovery Real Time, Paramount and Nickelodeon, Bravo, Sky One and Sky News - for MMDS add a couple of music channels and some more news/documentary/kids/general channels - *and* there's still channel 4 with all of these (which is worth about 5 crappy Sky channels IMO). You just can't get a selection like that with the cheapest option of 2 Sky "mixes" - you have to make a compromise by having say variety and only sports, variety and only kids, etc. 'Tis a bit gay, especially if it's for a family. And then there's still the extra installation costs for Sky if they're not currently doing an offer. And IIRC you have to pay extra for installing a Sky box without a phone connection, which a lot of people don't want.

rogue-entity

watty wrote:

yes but it isn't free. It is specifically mentioned in Irish legislation as an offence to connect to a cable system AT ALL, without the correct subscription for the channel you receive.

Counts as a Tap. They could charge you. Cable company operatives are famous for connecting customers to cable without the company knowing.

1. NTL charges for their basic analogue sub. They intall a TV point (a TV/FM isolator) for your TV. If you cancel the sub, wouldnt they just come out and cut the cable at the tap, cutting off the signal? If I was to run the cable into a disto amp instead of the TV to send the signal to other TVs in the house, isnt it perfectly legal. I certainly wouldnt consider it illegal tapping of the cable network.

2. We had that, a guy came out, connected 3 tvs straight into the cable system without those isolator boxes, the quality was so bad because the signal was so weak, I ended up paying for a proper point for my room, it runs straight into the master tap so I get a strong signal But the remaining two TVs are still connected, NTL did charge for them at first but stopped after two months. They do know about it though.

The situation with the cable systems will change with the dropping of analogue cable as it wont matter if someone taps into the cable system without a sub, they wont be able to watch anything

watty

Well obviously I won't describe here how to watch Digital Cable without a subscription. But of course it can be done (in theory) and without any NTL equipment.


They are supposed to disconnect the outside tap when you cancel. If someone forgets or is lazy, or they have a policy of not really caring at the minute, you still are getting something that UPC can in theory demand retrospective payment for. If you really want to ensure you can't be liable you should ensure you have cancelled in writing, and subsequently in writing point out that the cable is still connected.

Then legally you have "put the ball in their court" and if the new owners (UPC) tightenup policy then you are OK and can't be charged.

rogue-entity

Well, if I pay for the basic analogue sub, they intall a cable, this cable also carries broadband and digital cable. If I was to install my own DVB-C receiver, I may find that 18 of those channels are in the clear and watchable, those being the same 18 I normally pay for. Nothing illegal about that. I am in no way attempting to watch encrypted channels I dont pay for. A DreamBox can do this. And if I bought an NagraVision CAM for the dreambox, then I can always subscribe to the digital packages but watch the channels on the dreambox instead of the unit NTL sends me. I am still only watching what I am paying for.

watty

Yes it could be illegal, because it is cable not satellite. Techincally NOTHING is free on cable, even if not encrypted. Satellite is Broadcast, so if it is clear you can watch.

The Cable company decides what can be connected. Or at least normally does. I haven't read the T/C lately.

The cable company is of course not sensible if all channels not encrypted and even using a box ID.

One major problem I remember with analogue MMDS when we had it here was that the Jerrold box outputted the channels on VHF Band I. So the feed between the box and the TV was ridden with co-channel interference and sparklies. That wasn't a fault of the MMDS transmission, more the modulator outputting on a dodgy channel. Still - who came up with that idea? Being a Dublin man I was horrified compared to what we had on Cablelink. We eventually ditched it, decided to compromise on the UK terrestrials and get Sky analogue. I still remember well, the picture was fantastic most of the time - I'd consider it better than digital - no compression. :rolleyes:

There's a lot of people in north Kerry still on analogue MMDS. I've no idea why, its mono and (as watty said) AM. On the terrestrial front we don't even get served properly by UHF, Maghera and Mullaghanish are both grainy. I prefer to accept no less.

watty

Actually it WAS the fault of the MMDS system. The old downconvertor on the back of mesh dish outputs on VHF.

The Jerrold box also has a modulator. I took a similar box apart. The MMDS is not encypted, but scrambled. The Jerrold is an ordinary USA cable descrambler.

It is a terrible design. The whole system is designed also for NTSC narrower band 525 line, not PAL 625 Line with extra NICAM subcarrier at 6.5MHz.

zilog_jones

I don't think all the MMDS channels are scrambled - either that or there's like 2 levels of scrambling or something. The last time I saw analogue MMDS there were 2 scrambled channels (Sky Sports 1 and one of the movie channels IIRC) - all the others were "clear"... but you still needed the Jerrold/GI box to get the other channels...?

Also, is there still the problem that some areas still have no reasonable TV3 terrestrial reception? I remember in Kilkee (west coast of Co. Clare - haven't been there in like 5 years now) the only way to get it was through MMDS. Either that or they were just too cheap/lazy to buy new aerials.

watty

watty wrote:

Actually it WAS the fault of the MMDS system. The old downconvertor on the back of mesh dish outputs on VHF.

Hmm, I didn't know that. So you're saying the picture could have been bad before it even arrived at the box?

watty wrote:

The Jerrold is an ordinary USA cable descrambler.

It is a terrible design. The whole system is designed also for NTSC narrower band 525 line, not PAL 625 Line with extra NICAM subcarrier at 6.5MHz.

I was curious about that. The sync-suppression encryption system used by these boxes, does it happen to be the infamous VideoCipher II? Certainly looks similar, bar the audio scrambling.

zilog_jones: In Kerry on the Knockanore analogue MMDS, all channels except TV3 are scrambled.

watty

zilog_jones wrote:

Also, is there still the problem that some areas still have no reasonable TV3 terrestrial reception? I remember in Kilkee (west coast of Co. Clare - haven't been there in like 5 years now) the only way to get it was through MMDS. Either that or they were just too cheap/lazy to buy new aerials.

TV3 too cheap to pay to be on all the repeaters!

TV3 on Satellite is 22 Euro per month (Variety + Knowledge packs). So MMDS is not the only way. No comparison on quality.

watty

No discussion on DETAIL of encryption or Scrambling allowed.

Antenna

watty wrote:

It definately is getting scrapped the Great Comreg has said so. MMDS is not allowed on that frequency in Harmonised Europe. We broke the rules.

I read some time ago the MMDS spectrum is at some stage to be reduced - but not totally scrapped. This would mean MMDS analogue channels would have to go but MMDS digital would be OK.

Why are they not cabling newly built city areas if it is to be totally scrapped???

There are plenty of examples of frequencies that are not harmonised in Europe, including many amateur/experimenter frequencies. Amateur 4 metre allocations don't exist in most or Europe, 4 meters would have to be scrapped by comreg if there was total harmonisation of RF spectrum in Europe?

When MMDS licences were first made available in this country, the UK also considered MMDS, but decided not to proceed. Ray Burke, (the minister who introduced MMDS), had hopes that MMDS would spread across Europe (never happened) and that Ireland, being first, could become a manufacturing centre of MMDS gear for Europe!!!

zilog_jones

Antenna wrote:

Why are they not cabling new areas if it is to be totally scrapped???

It's just not viable to cable a lot of the areas covered by MMDS, especially small areas far away from current cable networks and rural areas. Again, take Kilkee for example - a pretty small seaside town - well it's nearly doubled in size in the past 10 years or so with all the new estates and junk, but outside of the summer there's a very small population (<10,000?). It'd cost shítloads to cable the place, and all the constant new developments will just make it even more of a nightmare to do. Actually, are there any cabled areas in Clare? IIRC not even Ennis is cabled...

And never mind places like that - I'd say at least a quarter of Limerick city relies on MMDS as well because no one bothered their holes cabling any new houses, and seemed to just forget about some areas (Clare St./Dublin Rd.) alltogether.

Antenna

Karsini wrote:

One major problem I remember with analogue MMDS when we had it here was that the Jerrold box outputted the channels on VHF Band I. So the feed between the box and the TV was ridden with co-channel interference and sparklies. That wasn't a fault of the MMDS transmission, more the modulator outputting on a dodgy channel.

Band 1 on a lot of modern TVs is hopeless, with internal microprocessor etc interference from the TV itself.

zilog
I did of course mean newly built densely populated areas adjacent to existing areas with cable, I was editing my post to clarify just as you replied

zilog_jones

zilog_jones wrote:

Actually, are there any cabled areas in Clare? IIRC not even Ennis is cabled...

Shannon is cabled, but probably only due to its proximity to Limerick city.

watty

Though due to wierdness of the RTE TV site at Woodcock, which is as close to Shannon as Limerick City, and in Co. Clare, you can't really receive TV from it in Shannon.

Ulsterman 1690

are there any cabled areas in Clare? IIRC not even Ennis is cabled

The cable frannchise for Ennis was awarded to Westward cables (i.e. Chorus) who did nothing with it.

Theres quite a few of these dormant cable franchises across Ireland (and NI)

IMNSHO when a company is given a cable franchise there should be a timescale (say 2 years to start service and 4 years to cover the whole franchise area) If they miss the first deadline the franchise gets automatically readvertised and can only revert back to the incumbent if noone else applies. If they miss the second deadline then either the whole franchise gets readvertised or the areas not yet covered get readvertised as a new franchise area by splitting the existing franchise area into the areas already cabled and not yet cabled.

It is a blatent abuse of process that cable companies are allowed to "sit" on franchises for years (or decades) on end -especially when there were rival applicants in the first place.