Citywest Team event hand

5starpool

This is the hand that I got eliminated on in the Citywest and I think I know where my biggest mistake was in it. I am not interested in the fact now that I lost the hand, but I would like opinions on whether I played this poorly or if people feel some other point was where the problem lay than where I think (if you are with me). There are actually 2 points I am not happy with in my play, but one moreso than the other.

Blinds/Antes: 300/600/75
Stacks: Me ~18k
Opponent: ~30k

The average stack at this point was a tad over 17k so I was around this. The table was 9 handed I think at this point, and I had been at the table all night with my opponent in this hand (Joe from Fermanagh who eventually came 11th) had joined a few hours previously. I had played fairly tight all night, but had picked some recent spots to steal (uncontested) and one big uncalled reraise and the only hand I believe I had shown down was AK to knock out a player who had QQ.

Opponent had picked up a good few pots, but with little shown down. Made one call of an all in player (quite shortstacked) with A6s, other than that I have not seen much hands to judge.

The hand: I think 2, maybe 3 folds to me and I open raise to 2k with QQ. Opponent calls from cutoff, others fold.

Flop (5.5k): 789r

I lead for 3.5k, get called.

Turn (12.5k) Kc putting a club draw on board. I bet 4k with just over 8k remaining, both not loving, but not really fearing the K on the turn. His flop call confused me somewhat. He raised to 12k.

I called after a 2 minute dwell up and lost. Before I tell the river and the hand that I lost to I would like some opinions on my play please.

Gholimoli

Dom
if your intending to call his reraise (so effectively playing for your stack on the turn) why are you only betting 4.5K on the turn and not shove?
i understand if you wanted to fold to a reraise but if you decided that you were going to play this for your stack why not push the turn?

cardshark202

You bet too small on the turn. Saying that, I would have checked the turn, because you are no beating much apart from TT, JJ and maybe something like 9T.

Norwich Fan Rob

with the antes theres 5.6k in the pot pre flop, your flop bet of 3600 looks like a continuation bet, a lot of people call that with a wide range, especially on such a draw heavy board.
I prefer to bet about 5.5 - 6k on this flop, discourages him to call with a marginal and try to float, or hit/chase a draw. (well to me anyway your bet screamed of being weak, and i woulda called with all sorts to see what developed on the turn).
With the high blinds relative to stacks we had in this event, there was a heavy emphasis on taking down a pot when u could, more so than trying to stack someone.
(ive a feeling some of the cash boys will come back with "let him make a mistake, he will only call big bet if u are beat etc", but in this case, put in 6k, get him off a draw/marginal and get away if he comes over the top is my preferred line)

Gholimoli

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

with the antes theres 5.6k in the pot pre flop, your flop bet of 3600 looks like a continuation bet, a lot of people call that with a wide range, especially on such a draw heavy board.
I prefer to bet about 5.5 - 6k on this flop, discourages him to call with a marginal and try to float, or hit/chase a draw. (well to me anyway your bet screamed of being weak, and i woulda called with all sorts to see what developed on the turn).
With the high blinds relative to stacks we had in this event, there was a heavy emphasis on taking down a pot when u could, more so than trying to stack someone.
(ive a feeling some of the cash boys will come back with "let him make a mistake, he will only call big bet if u are beat etc", but in this case, put in 6k, get him off a draw/marginal and get away if he comes over the top is my preferred line)

i totally agree with this.
in tourny situation is often correct to try and end the pot as soon as you can unless you have a monster hand.again the reason is shallow stacks though so its not like if this was a cash game you dont push and because its a tourney now its ok to push.
if this was a cash game with same relative stacks then you do the same.

5starpool

Gholimoli wrote:

Dom
if your intending to call his reraise (so effectively playing for your stack on the turn) why are you only betting 4.5K on the turn and not shove?
i understand if you wanted to fold to a reraise but if you decided that you were going to play this for your stack why not push the turn?

I was not betting with the full intention of calling a reraise here. I had a fair old dwell up, ages by my standard, before I made the call. Before I bet I could not see him calling with just overcards on the flop. If I check/fold I felt this would be too weak here in this situation against a player who had not shown down many cards while winning a good few pots. Checking would nearly have been an automatic bet for him no matter what his holding. In my mind he would have definitely reraised preflop with AK/KK. The hands I was afraid of here was 77/88/99 or slightly possibly AA.

The options I had were:
Push - In most situations this is what I would have done. I think I did make a fudge of it somewhat here, but I don't believe this is relevant.
Check - This would in my mind have led to a bet no matter what he held, some of which i am behind to, some of which I am beating.
Bet not push - With 12k left I was not comitting half my stack or more to a bet. This left beting something around 4-5k bet which if reraised I could evaulate (although in hindsight this was a weak play mostly).

Norwich Fan Rob

im my opinion dom, the mistake was made on the flop, not on the turn.
your flop bet looks very weak, remember with antes etc there was 5.6k in the middle, and u bet 3.5k.
if u bet 6k here, he will raise with a set on that board, he will always raise with AA, almost always, and he will not call with a marginal, ie JJ, or a single pair.
Your 3.5k bet on the flop, encouraged the call, and then u had no idea where u were in the hand.
Also, if u bet 6k on this flop, u leave 9k behind and are unlikely to be raised by a worse hand.
By betting 3.5k, u are almost forcing yourself to pot commit yourself with another bet on the turn, and on that board, checking the turn is very weak, and u are still most likely ahead.

Gholimoli

5starpool wrote:

I was not betting with the full intention of calling a reraise here. I had a fair old dwell up, ages by my standard, before I made the call. Before I bet I could not see him calling with just overcards on the flop. If I check/fold I felt this would be too weak here in this situation against a player who had not shown down many cards while winning a good few pots. Checking would nearly have been an automatic bet for him no matter what his holding. In my mind he would have definitely reraised preflop with AK/KK. The hands I was afraid of here was 77/88/99 or slightly possibly AA.

The options I had were:
Push - In most situations this is what I would have done. I think I did make a fudge of it somewhat here, but I don't believe this is relevant.
Check - This would in my mind have led to a bet no matter what he held, some of which i am behind to, some of which I am beating.
Bet not push - With 12k left I was not comitting half my stack or more to a bet. This left beting something around 4-5k bet which if reraised I could evaulate (although in hindsight this was a weak play mostly).

Dom,
Any bet here has you committed.
You say you didn’t bet with the intention of calling his reraise . Well that’s a mistake.
If you bet here you’re going to have to go all the way IMO and that’s why your better off pushing.
But that’s not the only issue. you said you didn’t bet with the intention of calling his reraise and you thought about it for ages before you called…
In this spot you should have a plan for the rest of the hand. Your either saying I’ll bet 4.5K and fold to a reraise (not good IMO) or you play it for stacks in which case you have to apply max pressure and go all in.your mistake here was “I bet and see what happens because checking is weak” kind of thinking.
Im sure if you thought for a second before your bet, about what your going to do if comes over the top,you would have shoved it all in.


P.S. if this is the man with glasses in a green shirt with white hair then i think he is a bad player if its any consolation.

Norwich Fan Rob

the player in question is joe rafferty, who almost led wsop 2005 after day 1, went deep in the final table of last years dublin ept, and bubbled the final table in this particular event.

Gholimoli

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

the player in question is joe rafferty, who almost led wsop 2005 after day 1, went deep in the final table of last years dublin ept, and bubbled the final table in this particular event.

i have no idea who he is but i think its the same player im talking about.
im not sure if leading WSOP after day one really says alot but im only going by the call he made against me.
his got 35K blinds 800/1600 and i have 70K
he raises early UTG to 7K and i shove after thinking about it for a while with KK.
There is another player who takes around 10 min about it and he folds and its back to him. he thinks about it for few minutes and calls with AQs.
Does this sound like a good player to you?

Shortstack

Gholimoli wrote:

i have no idea who he is but i think its the same player im talking about.
im not sure if leading WSOP after day one really says alot but im only going by the call he made against me.
his got 35K blinds 800/1600 and i have 70K
he raises early UTG to 7K and i shove after thinking about it for a while with KK.
There is another player who takes around 10 min about it and he folds and its back to him. he thinks about it for few minutes and calls with AQs.
Does this sound like a good player to you?

He obviously reads this forum and has heard of you. I wouldn't fold A2 to a reraise from you

Seriously though, Joe is not afraid to get his chips in the middle, he likes to win big pots and he does not like to fold many hands.

5starpool

Shortstack wrote:

He obviously reads this forum and has heard of you. I wouldn't fold A2 to a reraise from you

Seriously though, Joe is not afraid to get his chips in the middle, he likes to win big pots and he does not like to fold many hands.

Considering what you can do with 93o, then A2 is a monster

Yes, this is the same player.

Gholimoli

Shortstack wrote:

He obviously reads this forum and has heard of you. I wouldn't fold A2 to a reraise from you

Seriously though, Joe is not afraid to get his chips in the middle, he likes to win big pots and he does not like to fold many hands.

oh i know you wouldnt even fold 92 never mind A2:D
i dont mind ppl who makes aggressive moves and not scared of getting chips in the middle if they spot a weakness .but to call with a bad hand in a tourney for all your stack when your ot getting near enough odds is a very bad play IMO.

5starpool

Anyways, to rip this somewhat back on topic, in hindsight I think my biggest mistake here is to not account for the antes when raising first. I am not used to playing tournaments with antes in them and I plain disregarded them when making my raise. My standard open raise is usually in the 3-5 BB bracket. I think I should have made it between 2500-3000 to play here which would have prompted me to bet about 6k on the flop.

Rob - when I was betting the flop I had somewhat underestimated the pot size to be about 5k, so to my mind 3.5k was not as weak as it may have seemed in reality.

Result anyhow for any who don't know is:

River came 5c and he hit the nuts holding Ac7c. At the time I was very annoyed. I realised after a while though that I had not played this as well as I could have, but I still think it was somewhat ropey play by him preflop and on the flop too. Moral of the story - never lose sight of the pot size.