Getting something patented?

Bounty Hunter

How exactley does someone go about patenting an idea they have had? That would be the first step while setting up your buisiness, patenting your idea. So im looking for advice on how to go about this?

Me and a few others have a concept we think could be very big but are relutant to make inrodes into developing that concept until he have patented it first. It is something we are quite surprised does not already exist , yet were shocked when we could not find any flaws in the concept (thus far obviously).

Ruu_Old

Have you had a look at the Irish Patents Office website? Best of luck.

Bounty Hunter

im in England and its my concept tho i am most certainly not going to be the business front for it unfortunatly. Therefore i have very little idea on how to Patent an idea/get a business started but the others whom i would be developing this concept with have agreed to alowing me have the patent as it was my idea. This IMHO is very lucky but i dont really know how to proceed.

themole

I think you are referring to a business model.

Such patents do not exist in the EU.

Afaik, the only place you can patent a business model is the US and Japan.

antoinolachtnai

It's called a 'business method' in the jargon.

You can patent in the US for a period after you disclose the information, so I would suggest trying out the business method to see if it works and if anybody wants to pay for it, before spending a load of money patenting it.

The people who you are working with are as clueless as you are if they are going to let you just 'have' the patent. If you hold the patent, you will be able to hold them to ransom and the good work they do developing your idea and getting it on the market will be as nowt.

You should read all you can, but you really need to talk to someone knowledgeable about this (although a patent attorney probably wouldn't be my first stop).

Antoin.

SteadyEddie

You can disclose your patent in the US up to a year before you have to file a patent. Although this is not the case in europe and if you release in US you cant file any patents outside of the states. Also not sure exactly what the last poster was saying how you can hold your team mates to ransom. If they played in role in creating or coming up with the idea they are legally entitled to have their name alongside yours on the patent.

You need to search the patent database for any similar patents filed - although there are alot of unprocessed patents that are unsearchable currently. Google is always a good indicator...

Lawyer fees are also very expensive, so make sure its a good idea.

antoinolachtnai

Well, if it's truly a business method patent without a technical aspect, then he won't be able to file in Europe anyway.

His team mates could be held to ransom if they allow the OP to 'have' the patent as the post suggested. Having your name on the patent as the inventor does not necessarily mean that you own the patent.

Definitely, lawyers and patents are expensive. Also, you need a fair amount of experience to really get the best out of the patenting process.

I would suggest that some sort of market research is more important than the patent. (Although patents are important too.)

Antoin.

LegacyUser

op, i'm in the same boat. my idea's an object and not a business idea though. i've done some research online there, and as far as i can tell it hasn't been patented.

this is a good read, http://www.soyouwanna.com/SITE/syws/patent/patentFULL.html

so, a few quick questions to those in the know

1. if you patent somthing in the US, does this mean you can't patent it outside the US? if so, is it best to have US patent? is there such thing as a world wide patent?

2. i take it a provional patent just protects others from patenting it, but they can still make and use it, until you get the full patent.

3. so, how do i go about getting technical drawings for my invention. it's a pretty simple design, but i wouldn't know how to go about doing a technical drawing. is it somthing you just have to do yourself, or would you employ somone to do it. this wouldn't really protect your idea though... it seems you have to get this right at the start, as you cant make any changes

i came across this, would this be a satifactory drawing? i could manage somthing like this.. http://www.small-business-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38&d=1116573951

antoinolachtnai

1. The issue is whether you've disclosed before filing. If you have, you can't register elsewhere, as I understand it (though I could be wrong).

There is no such thing as a world wide patent. However having a patent in one country (generally) gives you worldwide priority. That means that if you register in Ireland, you then have a year to register in any other countries.

2. No, you have full protection. You won't be able to litigate your patent within one year though!

3. That level of drawing skill might be fine. It depends on what your invention is. If you can draw it well enough for someone to make it, it should be fine.

Look at loads of patent applications to get an idea.

The patent agent will guide you in all this.

But the most important thing is to understand and explain what is novel about what you have done.

LegacyUser

thanks antoinolachtnai, that was very helpfull, just a few more questions....

antoinolachtnai wrote:

1. The issue is whether you've disclosed before filing. If you have, you can't register elsewhere, as I understand it (though I could be wrong).

disclosed before filing, what does this mean?

There is no such thing as a world wide patent. However having a patent in one country (generally) gives you worldwide priority. That means that if you register in Ireland, you then have a year to register in any other countries.

right, does that mean if you register it in ireland, you have a year after that to register it in all other countries, say, 8 months after registering it in ireland, you register it in the US, do you then have a year to register it elsewhere, or just 4 months?


2. No, you have full protection. You won't be able to litigate your patent within one year though!

does this mean, that people can copy you, but not patent your idea, for the first year?

3. That level of drawing skill might be fine. It depends on what your invention is. If you can draw it well enough for someone to make it, it should be fine.

luckly it's a ridiculusly simple idea. although, on the site i have linked above, it states that all measurements have to be exact.... i guess i'll just look at some examples online

Look at loads of patent applications to get an idea.

The patent agent will guide you in all this.
who's this now? Irish Patents Office?

But the most important thing is to understand and explain what is novel about what you have done.

i reckon it's pretty novel, and hopefully unique, i did a lot of searching online, and can't find anything like it

LegacyUser

also, how much does all this cost? i'm reading very varing costs online, from $75 to $5000

antoinolachtnai

Disclosing means telling the public about your invention. You cannot get a patent anywhere except America if you have told the public about it.

for your second question: 4 months basically.

Re the one year limit: it means that you will nominally have the patent. In order to defend your patent monopoly, you may have to resort to litigation. In practice, it takes months or years to get an injunction or damages resulting from a patent.

Measurements only have to be exact if the measurements are critical. It really depends what you are describing.

The patent agent/attorney is basically a legal specialist who translates your patent into the type of language required by the patent office and which will be defensible in the courts, and acts on your behalf in dealings with the various patent offices. An example would be Tomkins or FR Kelly. In principle, you could perform this function yourself and save a lot of money, but I wouldn't bother.

Searching in Google or whatever honestly doesn't cut it. You have to search the patent databases at the very least, and you really should be looking at searching the technical literature as well. A patent attorney can do this for you. Some of these are available online though. There are millions of inventions which aren't described on the Internet.

Budgets: let's be realistic here. By the time you're done, you're looking at about EUR 20,000 for an Irish, US and European patent, plus VAT. After that it's a neverending money-sucker. There are yearly fees and you might have to litigate. You have to have good cashflow prospects to make it all worthwhile.

You could get a 1-year provisional patent for around 1000 though, if it's any use to you.

Antoin.

bacon?

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Budgets: let's be realistic here. By the time you're done, you're looking at about EUR 20,000 for an Irish, US and European patent, plus VAT. After that it's a neverending money-sucker. There are yearly fees and you might have to litigate. You have to have good cashflow prospects to make it all worthwhile.

You could get a 1-year provisional patent for around 1000 though, if it's any use to you.

Antoin.

wow, that's expensive. how did you come up with €20,000?

i take it, before you patent it, you'll have to find out if it exists, i guess you'll need an expert to search for you, to be sure, ye?

antoinolachtnai

Yep, you need to get someone to search it. The patent attorney will do this. And still, you won't really be sure.

Also, there are 'gotcha's' with the novelty and non-obviousness factors. If your invention is mechanical, they can be pretty picky.

Where I got the budget number is from applying for patents before. The fees look reasonable enough when you see them one by one at the beginning, but they still add up. There are fees payable to the patent offices, and there are also professional fees you need to budget for. You might find that you have to file multiple patents to protect your invention. For a US patent, the US attorney needs to get his cut too.

LegacyUser

just out of interest antoinolachtnai, has any of your patents made you money?

say you come up with an idea..... do people generaly patent it, and sell the patent, or would the big bucks be in trying to get it out there yourself.

also, if your'e idea is really good, what's to stop a patent agent stealing it? is it just on a trust basis?

he who dares wins i guess!

antoinolachtnai

First question is easy to answer: no.

Second question. Depends. Do you have the skills and resources to develop the patent?

third question: he's a lawyer and he'd get nobbled if he did that and got caught. Also, you usually can't just take the patent and instantly turn it into a big-money business.

LegacyUser

ok, well i'm pretty sure "thing" hasn't been invented, nothing coming up on google. i did a patent search here.

so i guess that's a good sign.

if i just want this idea protected for now, what's my next step?

talk to a patent agent and get advice from them? and see if it actually exists?

are you an inventor by they way?

antoinolachtnai

I really can't advise you much further without knowing what you're talking about.

Go and see a patent agent if you want. But I don't think he will be able to really help you at this point.

In broad general terms, I would suggest doing some market research.

If it is such a good idea, you should try and raise some money among family and friends first.

LegacyUser

antoinolachtnai wrote:

I really can't advise you much further without knowing what you're talking about.

Go and see a patent agent if you want. But I don't think he will be able to really help you at this point.

In broad general terms, I would suggest doing some market research.

If it is such a good idea, you should try and raise some money among family and friends first.

do i not need to know if it already exists first. whats the best way to find this out, patent agent?

antoinolachtnai

patent agent would be one route, for sure. You'll be spending a grand or so to find out.

Is there any way you can search through the literature (for example, scientific lit., engineering lit., trade magazines) for yourself?

If you have the grand handy, fine, get the search done. If not, make sure there is really the market for what you have in mind before you splurge on the patent attorney.

Anyway, keep on moving, whatever you decide to do, get on with it and do it quick. Good luck with it!

LegacyUser

antoinolachtnai wrote:

patent agent would be one route, for sure. You'll be spending a grand or so to find out.

Is there any way you can search through the literature (for example, scientific lit., engineering lit., trade magazines) for yourself?

If you have the grand handy, fine, get the search done. If not, make sure there is really the market for what you have in mind before you splurge on the patent attorney.

Anyway, keep on moving, whatever you decide to do, get on with it and do it quick. Good luck with it!

thanks. i just found out it does exist.

it's not all bad, it's just the basic product i've found, and seems to be only concentrated for a very specific, small market. this market never even occured to me, i was thinking more for the general public.

it's full potential doesn't seem to be exploited. maybe this means it's not actually feesable to the general market, i really think it is though........

anyway, the basic idea has been done. but the idea i have is a bit more eloborate, it's like taking this basic idea and making it alot more user friendly to the adverage person.

sorry to be so vague........ basicly, is it ok to do a different take on a thing that already exists?

while i could eventully find it for sale online, it doesn't come up on the US patent search site.

thanks for your time.

antoinolachtnai

Are they asserting a patent? You should order one of these widgets and find out if there are any patent numbers on it or on the packeging.

Why don't you buy half a dozen of these widgets and see if anybody's interested in buying one? You are basically on the right track, it's all about the marketing rather than the raw product development.

LegacyUser

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Are they asserting a patent? You should order one of these widgets and find out if there are any patent numbers on it or on the packeging.

Why don't you buy half a dozen of these widgets and see if anybody's interested in buying one? You are basically on the right track, it's all about the marketing rather than the raw product development.

i'm not sure. i'll order some and find out.

is it common that peple will sell their wares, without patenting them?

take the cork screw for example, there must be hundreds of diferent types, is there one basic patent that collects royalties?

i'm still a bit unsure what exactly patented means, take the george forman grill, there's other similar grills, is his different because it's at an angle? i mean if there's somthing that performs a function, that already exists, are you aloud to esentialy reinvent it, is it now a different thing/patent?

there's so many different variations on certain products/devices.

i guess what i'm now looking at is, taking somthing basic, improving it(if i'm aloud) do some market research, to see if people are willing to pay money for it, find out if it can be manufactured for 4 to 5 times less than what you're gonna sell em at.....

there's so many factors here, but yes, it is exciting. i have it in my head roughly how it's gonna work, but taking an idea, and making a working model, is quite challenging.

my knowledge is slowly building,

antoinolachtnai

Novelty, non-obviousness. These are your challenges. Just because you are adding a new aspect doesn't mean you don't have to pay a royalty to the original guy.

He might have a patent, he might not. Most likely the other guy just copied it off someone else who didn't have a patent. Or maybe the patent has expired (they do that).

Just because the patent office recognizes novelty and non-obviousness doesn 't mean a court will.

I understand it is hard to convince the examiners of non-obviousness and novelty these days as regards mechanical inventions (though it's not my area).

Oh yes, in Europe, the innovation has to be technical.

'Corkscrew' is a functional description. You can't patent a functional description. I imagine there are many different corkscrew patents. Similarly for mousetraps.