Sometimes I make myself sick.

fuzzbox

2/4 party 6-max.

Havent played here in a while, so no stats on ppl.

Effective stacks 400

Preflop
I open utg+1 to 14 with JJ, folded to button who makes it 24, I am the only caller.

Flop (50)
4d 3d 2c
I check, he bets 50, I fold

burn me burn me

Marq

Why burn you?
If you want to play like a sissy that's your business.
Out of interest, why did you post this hand?

breadmonkey

So what flop were you hoping for?

shoutman

That is some serious weak play Fuzzbox, I'd get that Sh!t sorted lol.

That said it could of been some inspired gut feeling....

fuzzbox

breadmonkey wrote:

So what flop were you hoping for?

J22

fuzzbox

Marq wrote:

Why burn you?
If you want to play like a sissy that's your business.
Out of interest, why did you post this hand?

Well sir ... what would you do?

Marq

I don't play 2/4, but I expect I would go broke somehow.

Were you hoping to hit a jack?
At what point did you decide that you would fold to a pot bet on the flop?

RoundTower

how much are the stacks? Your hand has some serious reverse implied odds so I understand your line. But I'd find a way to put some more money into the pot.

FastMachine

Without a read on the villain I'd play this strictly by the book. Checkraise to 130, then if he pushes fold. If he calls and bets the turn when checked to, fold here too.

Hectorjelly

FastMachine wrote:

Without a read on the villain I'd play this strictly by the book. Checkraise to 130, then if he pushes fold. If he calls and bets the turn when checked to, fold here too.

whatever book this is its a bad one!

pok3rplaya

Marq wrote:

I don't play 2/4, but I expect I would go broke somehow.

:eek:


Fuzz, nh. Maybe a bit weak. Call flop fold turn isn't bad either.

FastMachine

Hectorjelly wrote:

whatever book this is its a bad one!

Can you tell me a better way to prevent going broke to a higher pair while at the same time minimizing the chance you get bluffed off the best hand?

Sangre

I think I check on this board is far too weak and makes the decision far too easy for the villian. Being the one who reraised and being in position, he is going to bet any flop regardless of what it looks like, if he is checked to.

So basically checking causes a CB (or not) bet by the villian which gives us no information on his hand.

I would lead out for 35/40 and put the villian to an actual decision. If you're pushed or reraise you have to decide was his reraise a standard button rr or was it one showing strength because hero was raising utg+1? Without a read I probably would lay it down to a strong bet...

This is why I never like JJ.

pok3rplaya

Sangre wrote:

I think I check on this board is far too weak and makes the decision far too easy for the villian. Being the one who reraised and being in position, he is going to bet any flop regardless of what it looks like, if he is checked to.

So basically checking causes a CB (or not) bet by the villian which gives us no information on his hand.

I would lead out for 35/40 and put the villian to an actual decision. If you're pushed or reraise you have to decide was his reraise a standard button rr or was it one showing strength because hero was raising utg+1? Without a read I probably would lay it down to a strong bet...

This is why I never like JJ.

So half the time he's sitting there with AA/KK/QQ and we lead into him!??

Lafortezza

fuzzbox wrote:

Flop (50)
4d 3d 2c
I check, he bets 50, I fold

burn me burn me

Any reads at all on Villain?
Tricky one, I find myself usually calling and check-folding the turn if Villain bets big again, probably the worst way to play it.
I think you should reraise preflop.

The size of Villains flop bet is interesting. Would a missed AK bet the full pot?

Marq

lafortezza wrote:

I think you should reraise preflop.

I like this.

cardshark202

Marq wrote:

I like this.

I don't really. I think fuzz played the hand ok, though I am very tempted to call the flop

spectre

I don't like reraising. If we reraise preflop, we only get called by better hands. I don't mind check-folding here. Imo, in the long run, you'll lose more by continuing.

Hectorjelly

FastMachine wrote:

Can you tell me a better way to prevent going broke to a higher pair while at the same time minimizing the chance you get bluffed off the best hand?

No, but that doesnt mean its a good or profitable line. All chk raising him does is let your opponenet play perfectly against you, And doesnt let him bluff off any chips to you bar the cbet. If your opponent is playing his cards perfectly then you cant be making money; if noone is making a mistake in poker then you cant have an edge. You need to find a line that allows your opponent to make a mistake.

The best line needs to take into account what paticular mistakes your opponent tends to make. If he makes noone then you are better off folding preflop and then finding a better game, but his min raise preflop is a good indication that this guy has leaks.

FastMachine

Hectorjelly wrote:

No, but that doesnt mean its a good or profitable line. All chk raising him does is let your opponenet play perfectly against you, And doesnt let him bluff off any chips to you bar the cbet. If your opponent is playing his cards perfectly then you cant be making money; if noone is making a mistake in poker then you cant have an edge. You need to find a line that allows your opponent to make a mistake.

The best line needs to take into account what paticular mistakes your opponent tends to make. If he makes noone then you are better off folding preflop and then finding a better game, but his min raise preflop is a good indication that this guy has leaks.

Good or profitable? Money not lost is as good as money won.
You kill all bluffs and avoid getting stacked by an overpair. You also don't have to see a turn or river, which give him opportunities to outdraw or bluff you.

You say to give him an opportunity to bluff and make a mistake but you have absolutely no idea if he is bluffing or not. Somewhere along the line you're going to have make on offensive play to find out where you stand, unless you plan on playing like a calling station. Best to make that offensive play on the flop where it'll cost you the least amount of money. If the villain hasn't got an overpair and doesn't plan to bluff past the flop, you're effectively giving him two free cards to outdraw you when you could've taken it down on the flop.

The best line needs to take into account what paticular mistakes your opponent tends to make. If he makes noone then you are better off folding preflop and then finding a better game, but his min raise preflop is a good indication that this guy has leaks.

I'm sure the villain makes lots of mistakes but this is a hand where he's got everything in his favour. He's also an unknown so you have to use the default play. Although in this particular hand, where you are in about a vunerable a position as you can be in in poker I'd use the same cautious line against anyone.

FastMachine

Sangre wrote:

I think I check on this board is far too weak and makes the decision far too easy for the villian. Being the one who reraised and being in position, he is going to bet any flop regardless of what it looks like, if he is checked to.

So basically checking causes a CB (or not) bet by the villian which gives us no information on his hand.

I would lead out for 35/40 and put the villian to an actual decision. If you're pushed or reraise you have to decide was his reraise a standard button rr or was it one showing strength because hero was raising utg+1? Without a read I probably would lay it down to a strong bet...

This is why I never like JJ.

Leading out will get you a fold a small % of the time. Most of the time though you'll be called or reraised. It's just as likely you'll be reraised with nothing as with a higher pair (or lower pair), some villains will slowplay their higher pair by calling, some villains will call with AK/AQ/flush draws. So now there is a bigger pot and an extra card on the board and you still don't have any idea where you stand.

Hectorjelly

FastMachine wrote:

You say to give him an opportunity to bluff and make a mistake but you have absolutely no idea if he is bluffing or not. Somewhere along the line you're going to have make on offensive play to find out where you stand, unless you plan on playing like a calling station.

I wouldnt agree with this. This is the type of thinking that sounds reasnable, but isnt. Sometimes playing like a calling station is best.

I dont think there is any need to take offensive action in this hand, and if you do the flop is the worst time to do it; because you wont fold Aces or get called by a worse hand.

FastMachine wrote:

Best to make that offensive play on the flop where it'll cost you the least amount of money. If the villain hasn't got an overpair and doesn't plan to bluff past the flop, you're effectively giving him two free cards to outdraw you when you could've taken it down on the flop.

The villain bet full pot on the flop and has already charged himself to much to hit his 6 outer if he has one. Also he will often lead the turn or you can bet.

lazlo

breadmonkey wrote:

So what flop were you hoping for?

Exactly, what flop were you hoping for? In this spot you're gonna be putting the villain on a hand like AK, AQ or a smaller pair... other wise you would be folding before the flop hits. If he has AK or AQ that flop gives him 10 outs(unless they are diamonds in which case he has one helluva draw against you)

You really should have led into him on the flop with a bet somewhere in the region of $80. If he re-raises allin he's either being very bold with his AK or middle pair(both relatively unlikely given the situation, although this realy depends on the nature of the beast you're up against some players at 2/4 will make this play without blinking) or he has you completely sewn up with QQ,KK,AA or AdKd/AdQd.

Bottom line with no info on villain: Lead on flop and fold to an allin reraise.

cardshark202

lazlo wrote:

Exactly, what flop were you hoping for? In this spot you're gonna be putting the villain on a hand like AK, AQ or a smaller pair... other wise you would be folding before the flop hits. If he has AK or AQ that flop gives him 10 outs(unless they are diamonds in which case he has one helluva draw against you)

You really should have led into him on the flop with a bet somewhere in the region of $80. If he re-raises allin he's either being very bold with his AK or middle pair(both relatively unlikely given the situation, although this realy depends on the nature of the beast you're up against some players at 2/4 will make this play without blinking) or he has you completely sewn up with QQ,KK,AA or AdKd/AdQd.

Bottom line with no info on villain: Lead on flop and fold to an allin reraise.

yikes

lazlo

cardshark202 wrote:

yikes

Indeed-if he has AK/AQ you really have to lean on him dont give him the opportunity to re-raise on a semi bluff or to smooth call you cannot afford to give him any value whatsoever.

eggie

fuzzbox wrote:

J22

Didnt you ask nicely??

Think you'll lose more times than you'll win if this goes to showdown, so many cards that can you rape you here. I probably wouldnt have folded here myself but i think you could have saved yourself a pretty penny at the same time.

Gholimoli

I don’t like check raising here at all because if we have villain beat your not getting any more money from him and if he has us beat we are betting his hand for him.
Because the check/raise amount is going to have to be significant amount in relation to what is already in the pot then your creating a huge pot with a very marginal hand.
Leading is an option but the problem with it is most villains will call both with made and unmade hands (hands that we beat and hands that beat us) so then we are left in the same spot on the turn expect the pot is now a lot bigger. (If villain was predictable and would only call/raise here with a better hand then obviously leading would be the best play).
I think the best play here would be to keep the post small as possible. its going to be hard to do seen as we are out of position but we can start by checking so I like the first check by Fuzz.
However I don’t like the fold to a bet here to a random player.
I think you can call the bet and :
On the turn you can check with the intention of folding to a sizeable bet because most players are not capable of reraising pre-flop and then fire big bets on two streets with pure bluffs.

If he checks behind then happy days we check the river and see what happens.

El Stuntman

edited

Gholimoli wrote:

I think you can call the bet and :
On the turn you can check with the intention of folding to a sizeable bet because most players are not capable of reraising pre-flop and then fire big bets on two streets with pure bluffs. (except me)

If he checks behind then happy days we check the river and see what happens.

FastMachine

Hectorjelly wrote:

I wouldnt agree with this. This is the type of thinking that sounds reasnable, but isnt. Sometimes playing like a calling station is best.

I dont think there is any need to take offensive action in this hand, and if you do the flop is the worst time to do it; because you wont fold Aces or get called by a worse hand.

I don't see anything wrong folding worse hands get away and only getting called/reraised with better hands in this situation. My main concern here would be not losing a stack. I often represent my hand's true strength and still get called by worse hands, actually that's generally how I make money as the vast majority of plalyers make huge mistakes all the time anyway. The theory that villains fold worse hands and call with better ones is just that: a theory, most people can't fold sh*t.


How are supposed to know if the villain has you beat if you're going to blindly call off a stack? When are you supposed to fold and get away from a higher pair? If the villain bets turn by your logic you can't fold as the exact reason you called instead of c'raising the flop is that you are looking for him to make mistakes by betting a bluff and being called. But you have absolutely no idea if he is bluffing!!
Do you fold if a higher card comes on the turn/river and he bets big, maybe he's after making a good pair (or he could already have one) but it's a great spot for bluff if he hasn't so I can't fold here and let him get take me off the hand when giving him a chance to bluff is the sole reason I've taken this line.
Are you supposed to go broke here every time he has an overpair, in the hope that he is bluffing? Another problem with this is if he is bluffing he's not putting anymore in the pot after the turn bet but the only way to find out now is to risk your whole stack.

The villain bet full pot on the flop and has already charged himself to much to hit his 6 outer if he has one. Also he will often lead the turn or you can bet.

So you have a one barrel villain who can c-bet the flop but shuts down on the turn. What exactly are you gaining from him by not c'raising the flop? You're giving him going two chances to outdraw you.

Gholimoli wrote:

Because the check/raise amount is going to have to be significant amount in relation to what is already in the pot then your creating a huge pot with a very marginal hand.

The goal of the check raise is not pot building but to find out if you're beat so you don't have to put anymore money - you get away as cheaply as possible from higher pairs and deny overcards a chance two chances outdraw you. If I'm called here I'm often folding to a bet on the turn (if the villain is an unknown) as you've basically told the villain you've got a decent pair and I'd expect lower pairs to try and check it down.

On the turn you can check with the intention of folding to a sizeable bet because most players are not capable of reraising pre-flop and then fire big bets on two streets with pure bluffs.

Well if he has AK/AQ and is going to shut down c'raising the flop prevents from getting two chances to outdraw you. In any case, you said you flat called the flop to get more money from him when he's behind so why would you then fold to a sizeable bet on the turn. Wasn't your goal to make money the times he's bluffing?

cardshark202

FastMachine wrote:

The goal of the check raise is not pot building but to find out if you're beat so you don't have to put anymore money - you get away as cheaply as possible from higher pairs and deny overcards a chance two chances outdraw you. If I'm called here I'm often folding to a bet on the turn (if the villain is an unknown) as you've basically told the villain you've got a decent pair and I'd expect lower pairs to try and check it down.

So what you're saying is you have put loads of money in the pot and 'basically told the villian you've got a decent pair', whereas the villain has put in a small amount of money and told us very little about his hand, other than he is willing to bet $50 with it. Now that he practically knows the strength of his hand compared to ours he can play much better for the rest of the hand. By the time we find out how strong he is, we have put in about half our stack.
I don't like this too much.

Gholimoli

FastMachine wrote:

I don't see anything wrong folding worse hands get away and only getting called/reraised with better hands in this situation. My main concern here would be not losing a stack. I often represent my hand's true strength and still get called by worse hands, actually that's generally how I make money as the vast majority of plalyers make huge mistakes all the time anyway. The theory that villains fold worse hands and call with better ones is just that: a theory, most people can't fold sh*t.


How are supposed to know if the villain has you beat if you're going to blindly call off a stack? When are you supposed to fold and get away from a higher pair? If the villain bets turn by your logic you can't fold as the exact reason you called instead of c'raising the flop is that you are looking for him to make mistakes by betting a bluff and being called. But you have absolutely no idea if he is bluffing!!
Do you fold if a higher card comes on the turn/river and he bets big, maybe he's after making a good pair (or he could already have one) but it's a great spot for bluff if he hasn't so I can't fold here and let him get take me off the hand when giving him a chance to bluff is the sole reason I've taken this line.
Are you supposed to go broke here every time he has an overpair, in the hope that he is bluffing? Another problem with this is if he is bluffing he's not putting anymore in the pot after the turn bet but the only way to find out now is to risk your whole stack.


So you have a one barrel villain who can c-bet the flop but shuts down on the turn. What exactly are you gaining from him by not c'raising the flop? You're giving him going two chances to outdraw you.


The goal of the check raise is not pot building but to find out if you're beat so you don't have to put anymore money - you get away as cheaply as possible from higher pairs and deny overcards a chance two chances outdraw you. If I'm called here I'm often folding to a bet on the turn (if the villain is an unknown) as you've basically told the villain you've got a decent pair and I'd expect lower pairs to try and check it down.


Well if he has AK/AQ and is going to shut down c'raising the flop prevents from getting two chances to outdraw you. In any case, you said you flat called the flop to get more money from him when he's behind so why would you then fold to a sizeable bet on the turn. Wasn't your goal to make money the times he's bluffing?

This is a very expensive and not profitable way of finding out where you are in a hand. You say the goal of CR is not to build the pot but to get information. Your suggestion here is not good because your paying too much for that information and you are effectively building the pot whether its your intention or not.
As for giving villain free chance of outdrawing you, well that’s just the disadvantages of being out of position in this spot. However its not so bad and we shouldn’t concern our self’s with it that much because villain is drawing to 6 outs only and because you have kept the pot small you have more options available to you if an over card hits.
If you make the pot big then folding the best hand is a critical mistake but not so much if the pot is small.

The reason why I fold to a second bet is as I said, there are not many players who reraise pre flop and then bet on two streets with pure bluffs. it could happen but its not likely so on average im not losing much by a fold.

FastMachine

Loads of money? This is as cheap as it gets to find out if the villain has a higher pair. You come away with about two thirds of you stack if he's got you.
I don't see any problem with letting the villain know the strength of your hand here, this situation isn't about deception(for us anyway) and maximizing profit it's about getting away cheap from high pairs while at the same time not being bluffed off the best hand or getting outdrawn. I can't see a line that better accomplishes this. If you had AA or KK then a call on the flop and a cr all on the turn is a good move (or even checkraise/lead turn), but a hand like 88-JJ is so vunerable here to being bluffed/outdrawn/already beaten that you need to find out straight away where you stand.

FastMachine

Gholimoli wrote:

This is a very expensive and not profitable way of finding out where you are in a hand. You say the goal of CR is not to build the pot but to get information. Your suggestion here is not good because your paying too much for that information and you are effectively building the pot whether its your intention or not.

This is not expensive. This is the cheapest possible way to be sure you're up against a higher pair. Yes, it isn't the smost profitable way of finding out where you are in a hand, but it is the most profitable way of finding out where you stand in this hand. Profit meaning money saved as well as money won.

The pot is after being built but it doesn't matter, you've paid for information and you've got it, if he calls a big checkraise he definately has something and if it's a higher pair he'll usually bet the turn whereas a lower pair will usually try to check it down.

Looking at it from the money angle - There is about 100 in the pot on the flop. The villain bets 50, so for you to flat call would make the pot 200. If instead of calling you reraise to 130 you are effectively betting 80 to win a pot of 200. This is great value for money strength-wise, I don't see how you can view this as expensive. A checkraise to 130 now looks way stronger than a leading bet of 80 into a pot of 200 on the turn, for example.

The reason why I fold to a second bet is as I said, there are not many players who reraise pre flop and then bet on two streets with pure bluffs. it could happen but its not likely so on average im not losing much by a fold.

Two barrels is standard fare on party these days, 9 times out of 10 they fire again. The small raises preflop have left lots of headroom for aggression, the villain is not committing his stack by betting again. You've shown no strength so far and the villain will have you on quite a wide range here, any overcard/diamond/5 falls he's got a great opportunity for a good bluff(if the card doesn't actually help him), although he'd probably fire again even if it was a safe card. So if you're planning on folding to a bet, you could very easily end up being bluffed off the best hand here.

I don’t like check raising here at all because if we have villain beat your not getting any more money from him and if he has us beat we are betting his hand for him.

So how do you plan on getting more money from the villain if we have him beat when you say you fold to a turn bet? And if he doesn't bet, he's still getting two free cards. If he has us beat, we find out as early as possible and are out without losing much. Now tell me you don't like the check raise.:D

Sangre

Ok, since this is a pretty perfect flop for JJ (set aside) because you've an overpair and its unlikely the villian has a set. You've decide to check/fold it because you're wary of being stacked by a higher pair.

Do you ever fold JJ oop to a reraise against an unknown player to avoid this situtation? It seems you're playing effectively for set value with JJ, which I imagine isn't the best 6 handed. Calling and then folding seems like a big way to leak chips.
Or are you going to check raise in future?

p.s. i never play anywhere near these limits

fuzzbox

FastMachine:

Two scenarios for you.

1. You check.raise to 130, villain calls. Pot now 410, you have 250 left. Turn blank (say 8) - you check, villain checks, river pairs the bottom card ... whats your plan?

2. You check-raise to 130, and villain shoves with AKo, you have created a disaster. AK has 10outs and is a 2:1 dog (or 1.8:1 or whatever), yet we are folding?

If I am ahead, I am usually not very far ahead (aka he has AK, and has 10outs (maybe more with AdKd), or he has QQ+.

Since I am behind his range, and out of position ... I folded.

Also - in playing that game for a day or so - I have taken different lines against villains who took this line, I have gotten my stack in with KK and QQ on raggy flops, and not once has anybody shown me any other hand than AA.

fuzzbox

Sangre wrote:

Ok, since this is a pretty perfect flop for JJ (set aside) because you've an overpair and its unlikely the villian has a set. You've decide to check/fold it because you're wary of being stacked by a higher pair.

Do you ever fold JJ oop to a reraise against an unknown player to avoid this situtation? It seems you're playing effectively for set value with JJ, which I imagine isn't the best 6 handed. Calling and then folding seems like a big way to leak chips.
Or are you going to check raise in future?

p.s. i never play anywhere near these limits

Folding to a min-reraise is very silly.
I opened to 14, villain makes it 24 to play. The blind are 2 and 4. There is 44 in the pot, and its 10 more for me to call. Thats immediate pot odds of 4.4:1. I will flop a set 1 in 8 times (or 7:1). Since villain has effectively told me his hand, I can be almost certain to get a continuation bet from him, and likely he will stack off.

So its a profitable call ... the trick is to try to avoid stacking off on a raggy flop. This is exceptionally hard. Especially if you are in this same situation and hold KK.

Hectorjelly

fastmachine if your playing in a game where ppl are often firing big on the turn with missed overcards as well then your making a HUGE mistake by not letting them fire that barrell. Against people who bluff far too much then check calling three streets is going to be profitable in the long run. (see the hand Norwich Fan Rob posted todaty). On this one paticular hand they might have us beat, but thats irrelevant.

FastMachine

fuzzbox wrote:

FastMachine:

Two scenarios for you.

1. You check.raise to 130, villain calls. Pot now 410, you have 250 left. Turn blank (say 8) - you check, villain checks, river pairs the bottom card ... whats your plan?

I'd probably bet about 80 and get called by lower pairs who want a showdown. If the villain was bad enought to call with AK on the flop you'll often get a call for here too if he thinks his A high K kicker could be good for the price.

2. You check-raise to 130, and villain shoves with AKo, you have created a disaster. AK has 10outs and is a 2:1 dog (or 1.8:1 or whatever), yet we are folding?

This is an unknown villain so you have to treat him like an average player. Only an extremely aggressive player is going to shove with AKo here. He has no read on you, you've shown extreme strength after checkraising big and calling a preflop reraise so for him to shove here would be crazy play against an unknown. If you had alot of history butting heads together you could find a call but against an unknown (to whom you attribute average skill level) a shove here means you're beat probably 9 times out of 10.

fuzzbox wrote:

Also - in playing that game for a day or so - I have taken different lines against villains who took this line, I have gotten my stack in with KK and QQ on raggy flops, and not once has anybody shown me any other hand than AA.

I'm sure if you had JJ in those hands and took the big checkraise line you wouldn't be stacked. QQ is a tougher fold, but it's usually correct if you've been reraised preflop (as long as it's not someone who's always at it) and then face an allin after checkraising the flop. KK is very hard to fold, we've all had it happen numerous times where we're left thinking, damn surely I could've got away from AA, but it's extremely hard in a 100BB game.
Bottom line is, in these situations where it's very easy to drop a stack your main conern should be avoiding this, rather than looking for value against worse hands which will not nearly make up for the times you get stacked.

FastMachine

Hectorjelly wrote:

fastmachine if your playing in a game where ppl are often firing big on the turn with missed overcards as well then your making a HUGE mistake by not letting them fire that barrell. Against people who bluff far too much then check calling three streets is going to be profitable in the long run. (see the hand Norwich Fan Rob posted todaty). On this one paticular hand they might have us beat, but thats irrelevant.

The games I'm playing they will nearly always fire again on the turn but the problem is they bluff with (close to) the right frequency. Basically they will have the goods more often than not, so you will lose money in the long run by calling. If they were bluffing far too much, I let them bluff off their stack no problem. Although with JJ against this type of bluffing opponent I'd generally just stick it in on the turn - it's usually only the tilters/extremely aggressive villains who fire a third barrel - as I don't like to give them a free river.