poker cup hand- help needed

redzerdrog

This is the hand i went on in the city west at weekend and it is really annoying me so i need all the help i can get to know what i done wrong. All opinions are welcome just let me have it.

I have 50,000 and the blinds are 2,000/4,000 with 500 ante and its 9 handed with the average stack at just over 60,000

I am on the big blind with K 9 and a MP raises it to 10,000 so its 6000 more to me and i call as i figure i am getting to odds to call.

I then check in the blind ( maybe a mistake) and the flop comes down 2 2 K
and the MP checks behind.

next card is a 5 and check because i think he would have bet a king on the flop. He bets 12,000 (i think) and i push all in.

He instacalls with 2 3 and no miricle on the river and out in 45th place

Any critism is welcome thank you

Darren

fuzzbox

Fold or reraise preflop
Call his turn bet - raising all in is pretty much suicide.

redzerdrog

i didnt think i could fold preflop for 6,000 when the pot would be 26,500 if i called

I dont really know what i was thinking on the turn i taught i was ahead at the time so if i just call then what do i do on the river i still have to same decision

bops

value for calling raise...
board couldn't be mush better...
just unlucky

I think you played ir right if it makes you feel any better!

(...not many people ever say that around here)

Hectorjelly

Pot odds arent that important preflop when there is considerable money still left to go in. You are out of position with a weak hand that can easily be dominated, and probably against a stronger player. (even if your slightly better the positional disadvantage will nullify this) so if you play a big hand you are likely to have the worst hand. Also you are just leaking chips if you plan on check folding if you miss.

On the turn the reason not to raise is because you can only really beat a bluff, a worse hand will never call.

Hectorjelly

bops wrote:

value for calling raise...
board couldn't be mush better...
just unlucky

I think you played ir right if it makes you feel any better!

(...not many people ever say that around here)

no advice is better than wrong advice

redzerdrog

Hectorjelly wrote:

Pot odds arent that important preflop when there is considerable money still left to go in. You are out of position with a weak hand that can easily be dominated, and probably against a stronger player. (even if your slightly better the positional disadvantage will nullify this) so if you play a big hand you are likely to have the worst hand. Also you are just leaking chips if you plan on check folding if you miss.

On the turn the reason not to raise is because you can only really beat a bluff, a worse hand will never call.

Thanks for your help HJ I can see the point you are making

The reason i raised the turn was because i (wrongly) believed i was ahead and wanted the take it down there and then:o

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

no advice is better than wrong advice

...it's always easy to say that "you've played it wrong" when you've lost the hand...

SO THERE!!

fuzzbox

redzerdrog wrote:

Thanks for your help HJ I can see the point you are making

The reason i raised the turn was because i (wrongly) believed i was ahead and wanted the take it down there and then:o

This is a bad reason to raise.

On this board - you are frequently either way ahead or way behind.
You are way ahead of QQ/JJ/TT ... 66 all of whom have 2 outs.
You are way ahead of AQ/AJ/AT ... etc .. .all of whom have 3 outs
You are way ahead of QJ/QT/Q9/etc ... all of whom have ZERO outs

You are way behind AK/KQ/KJ/KT/KK/AA/2x/55, you sometimes have 3 outs (the 3 9s, you sometimes have 2 outs (the 2 Kings).

If you raise - he folds every single hand that you have murdered. This is very very bad for you.
However - if you raise - he also happens to call with all those hands that have you murdered (well maybe he might consider folding KT/KJ). This is very very bad for you.

Since the worse hands that he folds are such big underdogs, and since its very unlikely that he folds a better hand, and if he does have one of these better hands, then you are a huge underdog - raising is really really bad here.

Now - back to preflop.

You are getting just over 3:1 to call. But you have to put in 6000 to call. Your stack is 50,000. So you are putting in like 14% of your stack to call. I really dislike putting such a large % of my stack in, with an awful hand preflop, out of position, with no idea what to do postflop.

valor

If you thought you were ahead, why did you want to take it down there and then? theres a massive flaw in logic there

Hitman Actual

That was me, Darren, sorry!

I only had 23o, but at the time I really wanted to start mixing it up, and hopefully get a stack. Obviously I wanted you to fold to the pf raise; the blinds/antes were really worth winning at that stage. I was lucky in that you hit the flop as well.

TBH, I think it was a re-raise or fold hand, as has been pointed out. Again, apologies.

redzerdrog

fuzzbox wrote:

This is a bad reason to raise.

On this board - you are frequently either way ahead or way behind.
You are way ahead of QQ/JJ/TT ... 66 all of whom have 2 outs.
You are way ahead of AQ/AJ/AT ... etc .. .all of whom have 3 outs
You are way ahead of QJ/QT/Q9/etc ... all of whom have ZERO outs

You are way behind AK/KQ/KJ/KT/KK/AA/2x/55, you sometimes have 3 outs (the 3 9s, you sometimes have 2 outs (the 2 Kings).

If you raise - he folds every single hand that you have murdered. This is very very bad for you.
However - if you raise - he also happens to call with all those hands that have you murdered (well maybe he might consider folding KT/KJ). This is very very bad for you.

Since the worse hands that he folds are such big underdogs, and since its very unlikely that he folds a better hand, and if he does have one of these better hands, then you are a huge underdog - raising is really really bad here.

Now - back to preflop.

You are getting just over 3:1 to call. But you have to put in 6000 to call. Your stack is 50,000. So you are putting in like 14% of your stack to call. I really dislike putting such a large % of my stack in, with an awful hand preflop, out of position, with no idea what to do postflop.

Thanks for the help lesson learned. The hand had really bugged me since yesterday.

Lazare

valor wrote:

If you thought you were ahead, why did you want to take it down there and then? theres a massive flaw in logic there

I hope you're talking about the hand in question and not generally.
There would be a huge flaw in your logic if you were.

redzerdrog

lenny_leonard wrote:

That was me, Darren, sorry!

I only had 23o, but at the time I really wanted to start mixing it up, and hopefully get a stack. Obviously I wanted you to fold to the pf raise; the blinds/antes were really worth winning at that stage. I was lucky in that you hit the flop as well.

TBH, I think it was a re-raise or fold hand, as has been pointed out. Again, apologies.

I think if you had of been in a later position i might have pushed thinking you were at it but you had 5 people to act after you so you might of had a genuine hand.

I realise the biggest flaw was to call the raise as i had to play the rest of the hand out of position

Goodluck2me

Lazare wrote:

I hope you're talking about the hand in question and not generally.
There would be a huge flaw in your logic if you were.

go on.........why?

Lazare

Apologies to the OP for going off topic, but would there be a huge flaw in my logic if I tried to take a big pot down, certain I'm marginally ahead on a draw heavy board?
I thought that was ABC stuff.

Marq

One could hardly refer to K-2-2-5 as a draw-heavy board, could one?

Lazare

Marq wrote:

One could hardly refer to K-2-2-5 as a draw-heavy board, could one?

I wasn't talking about the hand in question. Have a look at my reply to Valor's post.