Immigrant tax

sovtek

Besides the €100 for the GNIB card required to be carried by Non-EU nationals, McDowell is proposing bio-metric GNIB cards now.
I wonder how much they are going to start charging if they get that ridiculous legislation passed.
Nevermind it isn't going to do one damn thing towards it's supposed intended objective...curb spurious refugee claims (which are arguably a problem in the first place).

InFront

I dont think the refugees (asylum seekers) have to carry the GNIB card do they?

The 100 euros fee is a bit excessive in my opinion, and I wouldn't be surprised if the new system caused another price hike for the GNIB, which already has too much beaurocracy surrounding it from what I see.
Like a lot of people I have serious doubts about the immigration bureau, and the integrity with which they operate.

Morlar

I think that there are spurious refugee claimants - to expect there not to be is not realistic. I also dont think taxpayers should be made to carry the cost of illegal immigrants from non eu countries who need to be documented or need to carry id cards. Especially when you consider that many of them would have forked out huge amounts of money to be trafficked here illegally in the first place.

I think the service should be made as economical as possible - then at that point the costs per card to irish taxpayers for running the system should be passed to the people who will be recieving and benefiting from them. I dont see anything unfair in that at all.

InFront

Morlar wrote:

I think that there are spurious refugee claimants - to expect there not to be is not realistic. I also dont think taxpayers should be made to carry the cost of illegal immigrants from non eu countries who need to be documented or need to carry id cards.

Illegal immigrants aren't the ones who get GNIB cards Morlar, illegal immigrants are the ones without GNIB cards.
It's the tax-paying Pakistani shop assistants, tax-paying Nigerian cleaning ladies, tax-paying Indian doctors providing an essential health service to the country, that are paying this fee. For a decent, honest immigrant, it is a lot of money when you are trying to adjust to a new country and pay your way.

It is also used by university students until they get their Visas, and I'm sure I don't need to tell you the importance of University students to the third level institutions, particularly medical schools.

Too add to this, the immigration bureau is clouded with mindless beaurocracy and inefficiency.

Especially when you consider that many of them would have forked out huge amounts of money to be trafficked here illegally in the first place.

Nonsense. That does not include this group of people.

sovtek

Morlar wrote:

I think that there are spurious refugee claimants - to expect there not to be is not realistic. I also dont think taxpayers should be made to carry the cost of illegal immigrants from non eu countries who need to be documented or need to carry id cards. Especially when you consider that many of them would have forked out huge amounts of money to be trafficked here illegally in the first place.

I think the service should be made as economical as possible - then at that point the costs per card to irish taxpayers for running the system should be passed to the people who will be recieving and benefiting from them. I dont see anything unfair in that at all.

Are you aware that GNIB cards are a requirment, not a luxury for non-eu nationals living in Ireland. Are you also aware that we get no tax breaks for being non-eu nationals?
Yes there are going to be people that abuse any beaurocratic system. However there is no proof that I'm aware of that there is a huge amount of people exploiting the system.
McDowell also hasn't shown how a ID cards are going to curb illegitimate asylum seekers if there is a problem.

Morlar

InFront wrote:

Illegal immigrants aren't the ones who get GNIB cards Morlar, illegal immigrants are the ones without GNIB cards.
It's the tax-paying Pakistani shop assistants, tax-paying Nigerian cleaning ladies, tax-paying Indian doctors providing an essential health service to the country, that are paying this fee. For a decent, honest immigrant, it is a lot of money when you are trying to adjust to a new country and pay your way.

It is also used by university students until they get their Visas, and I'm sure I don't need to tell you the importance of University students to the third level institutions, particularly medical schools.

Too add to this, the immigration bureau is clouded with mindless beaurocracy and inefficiency.



Nonsense. That does not include this group of people.

So is that why you think that I and other Irish taxpayers should just add this one to the list of things we all pay for ? How about personal responsibility for a change ?

lostexpectation

Morlar wrote:

So is that why you think that I and other Irish taxpayers should just add this one to the list of things we all pay for ? How about personal responsibility for a change ?

these people are also paying irish tax :rolleyes:

Morlar

lostexpectation wrote:

these people are also paying irish tax :rolleyes

Unless they are working and having their salaries docked then its not the same thing - paying vat on the money you spend out of what you are given doesnt count as the same thing. And if the people involved are all in gainful employment whats the problem with them paying their own way.

sovtek wrote:

Are you also aware that we get no tax breaks for being non-eu nationals?

Thats got to be a trick question.

InFront

Morlar wrote:

Unless they are working and having their salaries docked then its not the same thing - paying vat on the money you spend out of what you are given doesnt count as the same thing. And if the people involved are all in gainful employment whats the problem with them paying their own way.

Nobody is talking about VAT. We're talking about the income tax (or university fees) that the GNIB Cardholders all pay as part of their contribution to the society. The point being made is that you're complaining about 'your' tax euros going on this, when it is in fact their tax euros as well. Effectively the only people who can get GNIB cards are students and taxpayers.
It does not include asylum seekers so maybe you should take your grievance with them someplace else?

And if the people involved are all in gainful employment whats the problem with them paying their own way.

Oh yeah what's 100 euro to a labour migrant, their simply rolling in it (please note that was sarcasm, they're not actually rolling in it - that's the issue with the fee)

timmy69

And not to mention Univeristy fee are ridiclously high for non-Eu students.

Morlar

InFront wrote:

you're complaining about 'your' tax euros going on this, when it is in fact their tax euros as well.

I agree that it shouldnt be added to anybodys tax bill so if your saying that the charge of this system should be directed at those who have caused it to be required - then I agree.

Do you drive a car ? Well IF you dont drive a car how about you start sharing the burden of my motor tax then ? If you do that I will go halves with you on your gnib card.

Maskhadov

what is a GNIB card?

Blackjack

How do visa/immigrant schemes for non-Eu nationals operate in other EU countries?.
I doubt they're free.

InFront

Morlar wrote:

Do you drive a car ? Well IF you dont drive a car how about you start sharing the burden of my motor tax then ? If you do that I will go halves with you on your gnib card.

Heh. That's funny. I don't have a GNIB card, nor do I need one.

The point I'm making here is this:
This country is no longer granting work permits for most of the unskilled jobs, with an exception for staff of ethnic resaurants and some other rare conditions.
In fact, non EU immigrants who are low skilled, presenting themselves at Irish consulates abroad are actively dis-couraged from seeking employment here, and basically being told they will not be accepted, and they won't. For all the hype, we actually have a very firm closed-door policy in this country.

Now the ones who will be given a GNIB Cards are employees in employment situations that are favourable to the Dept of Employment and Trade... such as nurses and nurse assistants for example, oh and the old reliable university student - up to €17,000 per year for science, engineering and healthcare courses. That totals more tax than most Irish people will ever pay in their lives.

What I'm saying is that these are people who are genuinely contributing to society and then some angry civil servant who wouldn't know efficiency if he was sitting on it, barks at them in the application office when they arrive, or tells them they need to go and get him 100 euro (no cash by the way) for the privelege of a piece of paper that certifies they are indeed a valued immigrant that has something to give.

I suspect that non EU immigrants, quite ironically given peoples perceptions, know more than anybody what an unwelcoming, self-important country Ireland can be. Ireland of the cead mile failte is a completely laughable concept, and for the government to market it in foreign countries to this day is even worse.

So my point is that seeing as how these people are making real contributions to the economy, and indeed our society, this fee should be waved and yes, spread over the entire tax paying population as, at the very least, a gesture that we welcome their presence, not admonish it.

Morlar

You seem to think that Ireland is this bottomless pit of cash that non eu nationals can draw from indefinitely without anyone ever having to pay for it at any point.

Your moaning that Ireland should to put people from the non eu countries/the third world (a lot of whom came here illegally and whom we know nothing about) through college for free so that they can become doctors (Doctors were just one of the examples you gave there - I am wondering if you really want this only to apply to the medical professio ? ? ) and increase their earning potential 10 fold. What about their living expenses while we they do that ? Should we pay their rent and give them pocket money too ?

First of all - why not pay this yourself ?

Get a loan - pay your fees back when you begin earning the big money ?

If Ireland did put an indefinite people from non eu countries, africa, asia and so on through 3rd level have you any idea of the cost to our economy ? What is to stop any single one of them from packing up and heading to the first country that pays them 1000 euros above what they can make in this country the first chance they get ?

Oh and 17000 euros is nowhere even in the ballpark of being close to what the average Irish worker will pay in taxation during their working lives - multiply that by a number between 10 and 20 and wake up would you. I dont know where you get this attitude of expectation from - that your somehow entitled to something just because you want it and you can talk out the potential /possible benefits to others of giving it to you.

The earlier example still applies - and I havent heard you explain that one away ;

If you drive a car you pay road tax even though that money goes elsewhere. If you dont drive a car you dont pay road tax. This is not a radical & wacky idea were talking about here - it sounds like common sense to me.

The same applies if I want to go travelling I buy a passport - I dont expect people who are not travelling to pay for it for me.

If I go to a far flung country and need a visa processed by them - I dont expect the locals to pay for that for me - same if I want to go and live their I pay the appropriate fees to have the paper work processed. I dont land there and turn around with my hand out and say - hi - I know I have put nothing into your system but I might if you play your cards right - so why dont you put a roof over my head give me a living allowance and pay for me to spend the next 5 years in higher education.

sceptre

Morlar wrote:

so why dont you put a roof over my head give me a living allowance and pay for me to spend the next 5 years in higher education.

I didn't notice anyone arguing for that. Let's pretend I'm slow and arguing against something that no-one has proposed confuses me and that I don't like being confused.

17 grand a year is a pretty good deal for colleges that would be overjoyed to take in students for half that figure. Now, I don't think four times 17 grand is necessarily close to what the average worker (or more to the point, the average irish person) would pay in their lifetime in tax but given that your entire post appears to be based on the notion that the alternative to whatever you're proposing is to put as many non-EU nationals as we can get our little green fingers on through our universities at no cost to them, let's abandon the notion that I might be confused by it, stop straw-manning the argument and let's all think about having a reasonable discussion on a topic that includes the word "immigrant" without introducing scaremongering stupidity into the thread. There's enough of that on the Internet already.

InFront

Morlar wrote:

You seem to think that Ireland is this bottomless pit of cash that non eu nationals can draw from indefinitely without anyone ever having to pay for it at any point.

For the last time, this relates to taxpayers, and mostly African and Asian students whose families are paying more than their fair share to help your education system so that their kids can get an education they wouldnt get in India or Malaysia, etc.
But we can't go charging them the standard rate now can we? They pay approximately twice as much as is the going rate, often more.

Your moaning that Ireland should to put people from the non eu countries/the third world (a lot of whom came here illegally and whom we know nothing about) through college for free so that they can become doctors

If Ireland did put an indefinite people from non eu countries, africa, asia and so on through 3rd level have you any idea of the cost to our economy ?

Where on earth are you getting that idea from? Of course such students must pay, I haven't suggested otherwise. but can we not just accept the students are being grossly overcharged already and not add insult - even symbolic insult - to injury.

It's getting offtopic but here goes. Most foreign doctors working here are educated abroad, and the remainder have already paid a disproportionate fee for what you would consider the privelege of being taught here.
The Irish health service needs them to do the menial tasks of the medical industry - they carry the NCHD - SHO and Junior Registrar posts while their Irish colleagues who are often of lesser merit (opinion) progress to senior registrar and Consultancy level. Link. They are the cornerstone of the medical system, and yet so many of them have to go through this idiotic GNIB process on top of everything else.
I am aware in their case it is not so much a question of affording it, its the principle of being treated like a second class citizen in the immigration offices when you need to get this thing, despite the service you provide.
It is no different for other entrants who would not be allowed a work permit if their work was not of merit to society/ economy btw). It's poor principles on behalf of the department, and for a great many of them, the cost can be a considerable burden.

Oh and 17000 euros is nowhere even in the ballpark of being close to what the average Irish worker will pay in taxation during their working lives - multiply that by a number between 10 and 20 and wake up would you.

The average Irish worker pays 340, 000 euro tax? :rolleyes:
If you read my previous post, I'm actually talking about the toal fee these students pay.

I dont know where you get this attitude of expectation from - that your somehow entitled to something just because you want it and you can talk out the potential /possible benefits to others of giving it to you.

What exactly do you think you've given to me? My parents have been paying tax here long enough that I dont pay fees. You seem to think your tax euros are funding the entire country singlehandedly.

The earlier example still applies - and I havent heard you explain that one away ;

Because it's so ridiculous. We already pay for the upkeep and building of the motorways through other taxes.
Your theory suggests that only parents should pay for primary school education, only the sick should pay for hospitals, etc.
The people entering with GNIB cards are what are termed "valuable" immigrants who have a service to provide that is not currently being provided - that is the very basis of their GNIB Card being grantd.
And yet they have to go through this rubbish.

so why dont you put a roof over my head give me a living allowance and pay for me to spend the next 5 years in higher education.

You're purposely exaggerating the argument -nobody is suggesting a free education for immigrant students. Just a little less hassle seeing as how they are helping, in quite a considerable way, to pay for the upkeep of the universities.
While it may be a lot of money to immigrant workers, my point is basically one of prinicple - it's a pretty awful welcome to Ireland from an individual you are keen to attract here.

sceptre

Morlar wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but isnt the cost to universities of third level eu students subsidised ?

Yes it is.

Morlar wrote:

If it costs a 3rd level institute more money to put a pakistani or a chineese person through higher education (due to lack of eu funding/subsidies for same) why should that charge be absorbed by the Irish taxpayer and not by the non eu individual who wants to get a higher education in this country ?

They pay roughly twice the figure of the cost of the education including the EU subsidy. In other words, using really simplistic figures, an Irish person pays five grand a year (even ignoring that first time non-repeat students don't pay anywhere near that anyway), the EU adds five grand to make the total payment ten, the non-EU student pays twenty. I can't see how even the most creative accountant could equate that with the Irish taxpayer (or the german one) absorbing any charge. They're subsidising our education, not the other way around.

In other words, essentially you're wrong. Corrected as requested.

I assume you may have realised this given that you deleted your post since I started mine but effectively this side-tizzy is over. Hence I see no reason for me to go over the other parts of your deleted post.

MySelf56

I am single, non-eu economic migrant, living here almost 5 years prior living in England. Every two years I will go my local Garda Immigration register my self It takes 2-3 hours cost me 100 euros. No big deal. I don’t want charity I have pretty good what I do. I will always carry my GNIB card (some times it serves me as age proof for off licence, lol. sigh). Honestly its like just carrying my driving licence. No Garda asked me at all or any govt beaurocrat bothered to stop me in the road ask the card.

I don’t mind giving my finger prints or what ever. Why should I fear I don’t have criminal record I don’t have time to commit any crime don’t have stomach for that, I work and pay my tax. I drink at my local with my yo yo’s. I am law abiding citizen I don’t have any problem what so ever. I am sure my fellow non-eu immigrant thinks the same way its not just me. But can some body tell me how it will stop illegal immigration?

May be McDowell forget the fact so called “housing boom/property ladder/Property porn” there is more then 30% new investors in housing market from Non-EU immigrants mainly from India, Pakistan, Philippines and china. 20% from Mainland EU. I am sure any hospital in Ireland you will definitely find doctor from India. Just give me a break McDowell!

There is always dodgy business here and there will employ these illegal immigrants and exploit them without paying national minimum wage. Create awareness in business community how in-human it is. Just like fur coats in 1980’s. There is always dodgy business here and there will employ these illegal immigrants and exploit them without paying national minimum wage.

It’s like 1935 witch hunt by Nazi party blaming every thing on Jewish Community rest is we all know. It’s purely election gimmick to attract so called “right wing” voters and divert attention of voters from recent Mount joy prison suicides. Nothing else I don’t see any thing positive here. May be McDowell have the following slogans for his up coming elections which is proven concept in 1935-37.

"Es ist Zeit für Rache" and "Wir müssen die non-eu ausrotten"


Just my 2 cents!:)

DublinWriter

MySelf56 wrote:

"Es ist Zeit für Rache" and "Wir müssen die non-eu ausrotten"

...and also, Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Taoiseach.

Honestly, I can't belive we're still having this conversation.

Economic immigration = economic prosperity.

Don't believe me? Have a look out yer feckin window or around about you in the Ireland in which we live.

Still don't believe me? Look at the USA, a country basically founded on immigration.

We have far more problems with home-grown spongers. Did anyone hear the voxpop interview Henry McKean did on Newstalk 106 broadcast around 2.30pm last Friday? He basically let some scuma rant on about "me best mate bein' in the bleedin' 'joy because he stuck a screwdriver in someones head and killed them but he's still me bleenin' best mate" and "yeah I'm just doin a little delivery business of me own, know wha I mean?" and "it's all down to the bleenin' foreigners comin in runin the bleedin place".

Unreal.

Victor

timmy69 wrote:

And not to mention Univeristy fee are ridiclously high for non-Eu students.

AFAIK there are two scales. Western non-EU students (mostly Americans) will pay the full fee plus a mark up. Mostly third world students will pay a reduced fee.

New_Departure06

DublinWriter wrote:

...and also, Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Taoiseach.

Honestly, I can't belive we're still having this conversation.

Economic immigration = economic prosperity.

Don't believe me? Have a look out yer feckin window or around about you in the Ireland in which we live.

Still don't believe me? Look at the USA, a country basically founded on immigration.

We have far more problems with home-grown spongers. Did anyone hear the voxpop interview Henry McKean did on Newstalk 106 broadcast around 2.30pm last Friday? He basically let some scuma rant on about "me best mate bein' in the bleedin' 'joy because he stuck a screwdriver in someones head and killed them but he's still me bleenin' best mate" and "yeah I'm just doin a little delivery business of me own, know wha I mean?" and "it's all down to the bleenin' foreigners comin in runin the bleedin place".

Unreal.

Tell the Germans and French how much immigration has benefited them economically. :rolleyes:

sovtek

Morlar wrote:

Unless they are working and having their salaries docked then its not the same thing - paying vat on the money you spend out of what you are given doesnt count as the same thing. And if the people involved are all in gainful employment whats the problem with them paying their own way.

We are just like you, but now we get an extra tax added on for something that we are required to have.
Let me guess...I should just go back to me own bleedin cuntri roi?

Thats got to be a trick question.

Nope pretty straightforward me thinks

sovtek

Victor wrote:

AFAIK there are two scales. Western non-EU students (mostly Americans) will pay the full fee plus a mark up. Mostly third world students will pay a reduced fee.

And those Americans will stop coming if they, on top, have to pay another €100 or even more if the current suggestion is put into practice.

Victor

sovtek wrote:

And those Americans will stop coming if they, on top, have to pay another €100 or even more if the current suggestion is put into practice.

Well that depends on what they are paying back home.

Blackjack

sovtek wrote:

And those Americans will stop coming if they, on top, have to pay another €100 or even more if the current suggestion is put into practice.

I somehow doubt that if they are paying a substantial amount in fees etc that an extra 100 Euros willkeep them away. If they've made a decision to undertake 3rd level education here, that's already a big decision, 100 euros isn't going to affect their decision.

sovtek

Blackjack wrote:

I somehow doubt that if they are paying a substantial amount in fees etc that an extra 100 Euros willkeep them away. If they've made a decision to undertake 3rd level education here, that's already a big decision, 100 euros isn't going to affect their decision.

Maybe not, but work programs and internship will definitely suffer. However if it's easier to get in the UK they might go there instead.

Jumpy

Maskhadov wrote:

what is a GNIB card?

Garda National Immigration Bureau.

I have had one for the past 4 years or so, since they were brought in anyway.
Its never been looked at by anyone. Its still the stamp in my passport that the Airports check.

Its a pointless card.

Blackjack

sovtek wrote:

Maybe not, but work programs and internship will definitely suffer. However if it's easier to get in the UK they might go there instead.

I don't think it is to be honest. Even as an Irish Citizen in the UK you have to go for a Tax/Social Welfare Interview before they will issue you with a National Insurance number. (I believe) that non-EU citizens have to get their Visa and pay for the privelege (don't know how much, but Marriage Visa and indefinite Leave to remain costs in excess of £700 to arrange).
I don't believe the UK is any cheaper than Ireland in that respect.

bonkey

New_Departure06 wrote:

Tell the Germans and French how much immigration has benefited them economically. :rolleyes:

A perfect illustration of the "if something is wrong, blame the foreigners" mentality.

God forbid you actually show how the foreigners are to blame, rather than (for example) the inflexibility built into the labour laws or anything else.

Who needs rationale or evidence when you can use cute little eye-rolling smiley-faces instead, eh?

jc

sovtek

bonkey wrote:

A perfect illustration of the "if something is wrong, blame the foreigners" mentality.

God forbid you actually show how the foreigners are to blame, rather than (for example) the inflexibility built into the labour laws or anything else.

Who needs rationale or evidence when you can use cute little eye-rolling smiley-faces instead, eh?

jc

Or how German companies are profitable but not hiring in Germany.

sovtek

Blackjack wrote:

I don't think it is to be honest. Even as an Irish Citizen in the UK you have to go for a Tax/Social Welfare Interview before they will issue you with a National Insurance number. (I believe) that non-EU citizens have to get their Visa and pay for the privelege (don't know how much, but Marriage Visa and indefinite Leave to remain costs in excess of £700 to arrange).
I don't believe the UK is any cheaper than Ireland in that respect.

In Ireland we also have to get a Work Permit/Visa that costs €500. Although that is paid for by the company. A GNIB card is a different matter altogether. I don't know if they have the = in the UK.

ressem

The UK government are proposing a similar situation in light of all the hubbub over eu-immigration numbers 'matching' the growth in unemployment over the last fortnight.
Their immigration service came out and said that they don't know how many legal immigrants are in the country as they don't record the numbers exiting the country. So the biometric id card is meant to be a techno cureall that should be swiped/ read using RFID when leaving the country.

toomevara

This is an interesting debate and one which we've got to have as a nation in a grown up way. The problem is there's alot of emotion hype and frankly,nonsense, building up around the core issue, which to me is; who are we as a country, what do we stand for and where do we see ourselves headed?

I also notice a big generation gap emerging in ths issue. Alot of the Celtic cubs, if I might use the term for want of another, dont know what its like to be an emmigrant, not from choice but from God awful necessity, the need to plunge yourself into a foreign country and culture, where at best the attitude to you and your fellows was ambivalent and at worst openly antagonistic.

Remember that a little over ten years ago WE were these people, turning up with the arse quite literally out of our trousers anywhere from Boston to Berlin and all points in between,, most of us just desperate to make a living and secure some sort of future for ourselves. WE did the crap jobs, made the ****e money and lived in the ghettoes and we banded together to cover each others arse when the **** hit the fan. How quickly we forget (as a nation) where we came from....I think any debate we have on this crucial emmigrant issue should be tempered with that remembrance....

Mad Finn

New_Departure06 wrote:

Tell the Germans and French how much immigration has benefited them economically. :rolleyes:

I think the Germans call it the Wirtschaftwunder. Loosely translated as 'Economic miracle'. It's what made them grow from a devastated smoking ruin in 1945 to the most powerful economy in Europe in a generation.

toomevara

Mad Finn wrote:

I think the Germans call it the Wirtschaftwunder. Loosely translated as 'Economic miracle'. It's what made them grow from a devastated smoking ruin in 1945 to the most powerful economy in Europe in a generation.

Would agree and disagree, the gastarbeiters were and are a huge component in germany's economic recovery, but for the immediate post war years I'd credit the yanks and the Marshall plan.