Ruling please

ianmc38

This happened last night in the SE double chance. I limp with 66 and 4 players see a flop of AK6 rainbow. UTG bets and i flat call. Turn is a K. He checks, I bet, he minraises and I push.

He throws his cards face up over the line. I muck my cards.

The dealer then deals the river.

I ask for the chips and he looks perplexed and says no i called. Now he never announced call and never placed chips over the line. His first action after I pushed was to throw his cards face up over the line.

Ruling please?

Bandana boy

This is a dodgy one
This happened with me and Ken in a cash game in the Merrion once.
I re raise Ken pre flop.
I push the flop and he had me covered.
He turns over the flopped nuts face up over the line. The dealer awarded me the hand and Mags subsequently ruled that this was a fold from Ken.

Now i have also seen in the Fitz players turn over the nuts as a signal that this is a call and dealers accept this.

I would always be very careful about mucking any hand until dealer has started to push chips my way.

If player turned over AA KK or AK i would expect a lot of clubs would read this as a call but strictly speaking it is a fold

Glowingmind

I was at the table last night and felt in strict terms it was the correct ruling. I didn't hear him say call, but i have little doubt that his intention was to call. That said, his action of turning the cards over, over the line doesn't leave the TD much choice in his ruling. As you, or somoene else said at the table it was too easy to view as "look what i've just laid down". (Ian didn't include it, but he was holding K9)

ianmc38

Glowingmind wrote:

I was at the table last night and felt in strict terms it was the correct ruling. I didn't hear him say call, but i have little doubt that his intention was to call. That said, his action of turning the cards over, over the line doesn't leave the TD much choice in his ruling. As you, or somoene else said at the table it was too easy to view as "look what i've just laid down". (Ian didn't include it, but he was holding K9)

Whats your seat number?

Glowingmind

ianmc38 wrote:

Whats your seat number?

Was in seat 9, went out not long after you due to playing like a cabbage last night.

5starpool

Technically you were probably in the right Ian but depending on the situation then this could be interpreted the other way though. If it was obvious from his cards that he would have called then a sensible rule usually comes into play. Best thing is to never assume a dealer will do what you think he should.

TheDuck32

Strictly specking, if he did not say call his hand is dead.
But what were you doing mucking your hand before the pot was awarded to you. Its hard to get a ruling in your favour when you don’t have a hand.

But as with any rule in poker, common sense must prevail.
If he has turned over the nuts, then he has obviously called.
A director must rule in favour of the best interests of the game and any director that doesn't and sticks rigidly to the 'Rules' (which change from room to room) is simply a bad director.

What was his hand??

Duck

www.duckedagain.blogspot.com

ianmc38

He had trips K9 for trips and it looked loike he was saying oh your all-in so you must have me betaen checkout this laydown. In retrospect i should have assumed it to be a call.

Glowingmind did you have kings dogged by jacks allin prelfop?

BigDragon

Tough one.

One of the first things explained to me as a newbie by a dealer was 'Never relinquish your cards until the chips are being pushed to you'.

Glowingmind

ianmc38 wrote:

He had trips kings, but I had a house.

Glowingmind did you have kings dogged by jacks allin prelfop?

No, that was seat 10

I was the one who called the all in with JcKd on the xd xd Jd board

ianmc38

Ah yes. I remember that hand, cant remember the face though. Dont think you coudl get awy from that hand ESPECIALLY against that guy that open pushed.

Scouser in Dub

What was the ruling from last night Ian?

TheRock

For those of us that weren't there, What ruling was made??

ianmc38

His hand was ruled dead but he kinda flipped out. He cooled down after a while, but i actually cost myself 1000 chips. I was gone within an oribt when I ran my AK into A7s and my tens into A7s.

TheRock

I think its the correct ruling. There has to be a audible call for the dealer to hear.
However it's probably a lesson to all not to muck before claiming the pot.
I saw the exact situation in a large cash game pot, where the ruling went the other way. Guy who flipped the cards said he called, other player had mucked top straight presuming it was a fold. After much agro pot was awarded against guy who mucked his hand as it couldn't be confirmed.

Scouser in Dub

ouch if your cards hadn't been mucked you could have generously allowed him to call off his chips

imalegend

its a tricky one in the s/e as they seem 2 make there own rules..i think the offical rule is his hand is still live until it hits the muck..u can flip your hand over before you make a call in a tournament..bad form though but saw phil h do it in the world series a few years back..

biteme

ianmc38 wrote:

His hand was ruled dead but he kinda flipped out. He cooled down after a while, but i actually cost myself 1000 chips. I was gone within an oribt when I ran my AK into A7s and my tens into A7s.

So your saying that his hand was ruled dead and you were awarded the pot? Even though you have no cards. I think this is the wrong ruling. His cards haven't been mucked while yours have. Therefor he should win the pot. Would teach to to never muck your cards before the pot is awarded to you.

Corben Dallas

I'm curious, why not show yur Full Hse and claim the pot, no problems.
Why be so quick to muck yur cards?

Also if no one heard him say 'CALL' did anyone hear a 'FOLD'?

Linford

biteme wrote:

So your saying that his hand was ruled dead and you were awarded the pot? Even though you have no cards. I think this is the wrong ruling. His cards haven't been mucked while yours have. Therefor he should win the pot. Would teach to to never muck your cards before the pot is awarded to you.

why is this a bad ruling? He turned his hand face up without saying call, this was seen as a fold by ianmc so ianmc mucked his hand. You don't have to show your winning hand if someone folded.

Scotty #

Linford wrote:

why is this a bad ruling? He turned his hand face up without saying call, this was seen as a fold by ianmc so ianmc mucked his hand. You don't have to show your winning hand if someone folded.

Agreed. He exposed his hand beore the action was complete without declaring his intensions so his cards are dead and Ian wins without showdown.

If Ian had turned his cards FACE UP would the other guy be as quick to insist he was calling???

ianmc38

Corben i didnt show my cards because at the time i thought the hand was finished and he had folded his cards face up, therefore, I had won the pot and didnt need to show my hand. Obviously if i'd known what was happening i'd have insta-shown the cards.

Danny Rafferty

It's a hard decision for the director - someone's going to be pissed off at the end of it no matter what he does.

I was one table over and didn't see the incident directly, but it was the talk of the tea break.

Sounds like this could have been ruled either way. It went Ian's way and good luck to him. In similar situations I am sure most people would have defended their position and "flipped out" if the ruling went against them, so there's no point making personal remarks about the guy.

The donk recovered and came in third I understand. Apparently went out to a bad beat too.

I don't post a lot, so I'd like to say here that I find the quality at the SE to be very good, especially on a Thursday. The numbers have been increasing too lately, which is good to see.

The buffet could be better though. Those bits of chicken seem to get smaller each week.

MickL

biteme wrote:

So your saying that his hand was ruled dead and you were awarded the pot? Even though you have no cards. I think this is the wrong ruling. His cards haven't been mucked while yours have. Therefor he should win the pot. Would teach to to never muck your cards before the pot is awarded to you.

I gotta agree with dave here the simple fact that you mucked your hand before the pot was awarded the last player with a live hand should claim the pot you will learn not to muck till you get the pot in future..

Example you playing newbie action pot, showdown, you say ace high he says one pair you muck he makes mistake and only has K high do ya think you should be awarded the pot,, The simple rule in most places is cards speak so keep your hand till you pull in the pot

White Knight

MickL wrote:

I gotta agree with dave here the simple fact that you mucked your hand before the pot was awarded the last player with a live hand should claim the pot you will learn not to muck till you get the pot in future..

But he was the last player with cards in his hand. The opponent had relinquished his cards (albeit face up) over the line without any verbal declaration. No one else to act, so Ian mucked. Winner alright imo

ianmc38

Mick his hand was thrown over the line face up. My understanding of this is his hand is now mucked. Leaving me as the last player in the hadnw tih cards. I have no obligation to show them so i mucked.

Danny I agree the standard has gone up alot recently and its good to see theyre getting the numbers there cos its a lovely cardroom and the staff are extremely friendly and helpful. Introduce yourself next time you're there.

califano

Danny Rafferty wrote:

I find the quality at the SE to be very good,
The buffet could be better though. Those bits of chicken seem to get smaller each week.

Only because ollyk1 is honing his half time act, choosing miss the last 2 hands so he can slip over to stock that paper doilie to max capacity accounting for a good portion of them!.

He's got ways of out foxing the field on an off the table, its all about the timing!.

MickL

ianmc38 wrote:

Mick his hand was thrown over the line face up. My understanding of this is his hand is now mucked. Leaving me as the last player in the hadnw tih cards. I have no obligation to show them so i mucked.

you should off clarified with the dealer was that a fold or call its not your fault imo the one thing i think you did wrong was muck before the pot was awarded

ollyk1

rounders123 wrote:

Only because ollyk1 is honing his half time act, choosing miss the last 2 hands so he can slip over to stock that paper doilie to max capacity accounting for a good portion of them!.

He's got ways of out foxing the field on an off the table, its all about the timing!.

LMAO!!!

Marq

There is confusion over whether he called or not.
There is no confusion over the fact that he has cards and nobody else in the pot does.

Danny Rafferty

ianmc38 wrote:

He throws his cards face up over the line. I muck my cards.

The dealer then deals the river.

I ask for the chips and he looks perplexed and says no i called.

Not wanting to muddy the already murky waters, but this sounds like the dealer heard a call. And also that she didn't spot that she was dealing to either 1 or 0 players.

Not that it matters now, but it sounds like there was a couple of errors in the regular procedure here.

Put it down to experience I guess - don't throw them over the line,face up or down, until you have the pot.

ianmc38

Marq wrote:

There is confusion over whether he called or not.
There is no confusion over the fact that he has cards and nobody else in the pot does.

I have cards in my hand. He throws his cards face up over the line without saying call or putting chips in.

I proceed to muck my cards.

ianmc38

Danny the dealer was asked what happened and she said to the TD that he never announced call beofr throwing his cards face up. other players at the table also vouched for me when this happened.

Danny Rafferty

I don't doubt anything you say - I heard most of what went on myself.
These things happen very fast, and you, the dealer and the other players will see the same thing a little differently.

She vouched for you when the TD came over, but had continued to deal after you had mucked and your opponents cards were over the line.
That obviously isn't logical. The last card shouldn't have been dealt.

If she thought he had folded she should have pushed the chips toward you and gathered the cards for the next deal.

But it's all academic anyway. We could discuss it til the cows come home - the ruling went in your favour so you can't really ask for more than that.

I'll probably be up next Thursday, and will skip the last two hands before the tea break as suggested.

DocO

i see both sides of this argument, whilst playing lat week live i had pkt QQ and folded to a K high flop face up. i didnt say fold, just turned my cards face up and tru them over the line, they didnt hit the muck but were taken as i knew they would be, as a fold. but saying this Ian, just to be sure you should hold on to your cards, esp in the SE were alot of home players would view that as a "of course im calling i have 3 K's" with their in-experience.

Marq

I remember an interesting story from Vegas.

I was playing a 1/2 NL cash game in Caesars Palace, and was up to about 1200 from a 500 buy-in. the table was very weak, and I was having great craic running over it (a rare thing).

Anyway, I'm in the SB with A9 of clubs. UTG raises to 15 froma stack of 125, everyone else folds, I call, BB folds. Flop is QJ5 with one club. We both check. turn is the five of clubs. We both check. River is the 7 of clubs giving me the nut flush. I say all-in (lol!) and he says nothing, just turns over pocket fives for quads.

I say to him "I probably would have called with that", and he almost goes purple realising that he has technically mucked his hand. I gave him the money anyway and laughed for a good five minutes about it.

DocO

Marq wrote:

I say all-in (lol!) and he says nothing, just turns over pocket fives for quads.

I say to him "I probably would have called with that", and he almost goes purple realising that he has technically mucked his hand. I gave him the money anyway and laughed for a good five minutes about it.

priceless - wp

Benglian

Related I think.

I am in the Aviation in France, only my second visit.
I am in a single table satellite for thier monthy 250 plus rebuy with a good stack, 5 left.
The folded to the short stack in the sb, who naturally enough, pushes. I am in the BB and look down at Aces.
I say, 'You got unlucky there'...and start to turn my cards over....
BUT THEN.
I realise I am in a new club and have no idea of the house rules.
So i stop, say CALL.
And then turn them over.

Simple.
You always have to be certain before you make an action.
Why leave room for a ruling, which at the end of the day is a value judgement and could easily go the way of the 'regular'.
NEVER give up your cards until you HAVE THE MONEY!
Period.

I have even seen a pot awarded to the raiser(in the fitz), and his cards mucked before one player says, 'hang on a minute, I haven't acted yet', and moves his hands to reveal an unmucked hand.

tricky D

Benglian wrote:

Related I think.

I am in the Aviation in France, only my second visit.
.......
I realise I am in a new club and have no idea of the house rules.
So i stop, say CALL.
And then turn them over.

Simple.
You always have to be certain before you make an action.
Why leave room for a ruling, which at the end of the day is a value judgement and could easily go the way of the 'regular'.
NEVER give up your cards until you HAVE THE MONEY!
Period.

Well, there ya go, spot on. House rules are different everywhere, which makes it even more important not to assume anything until the chips have been delivered. In some judrisidictions, it is perfectly legitimate to turn over your cards while deciding to call an all-in or not. In the Fitz, the hand is not dead, the player is not allowed raise (if that still applies to the situation), but the player gets a warning.

In this case, it isn't so clear that he has folded. He didn't say call, nor did he say fold. There's ambiguity, more reason to hold onto your cards. So just in case you missed it previously.....

NEVER give up your cards until you HAVE THE MONEY!

Also as a corollary, never assume you have the winning hand until all other hands are mucked.

Also again, never assume you know all the rules - you don't. There are different versions of rules and some of those have quite a bit of scope for interpretation (sometimes wrong) by the TD (human).

Benglian wrote:

I have even seen a pot awarded to the raiser(in the fitz), and his cards mucked before one player says, 'hang on a minute, I haven't acted yet', and moves his hands to reveal an unmucked hand.

A hand must always be in view. Concealing cards with hands etc. is not allowed. Raiser gets pot - he hasn't actually made a mistake even though there is a reponsibility to be aware of the state of play on the table. In this case it seems that even the dealer was 'duped'.

unityofsaints

OP, you were extremely lucky there as IMO you shouldn't have been awarded the pot. In many places it is acceptable to throw over your hand to get a read when faced with an all-in call. Besides, I think the "a mucked hand can't win a pot" rule is easier to enforce than the "face-up cards are mucked" rule.

That's my opinion anyway...

jacQues

unityofsaints wrote:

OP, you were extremely lucky there as IMO you shouldn't have been awarded the pot. In many places it is acceptable to throw over your hand to get a read when faced with an all-in call. Besides, I think the "a mucked hand can't win a pot" rule is easier to enforce than the "face-up cards are mucked" rule.

That's my opinion anyway...

I agree with this ruling and would rule this way. Showing card(s) in a heads-up situation is acceptable, however, no bet/raise can be made anymore by that player. Sometimes you'll see two players (usually friends) who get involved in a large pot pre-flop to turn 'em up to stop the betting post-flop.

Over the line or not is kinda irrelevant since its cards and not chips. The dealer was in the wrong for not asking that player for clarification (fold or thinking about it), but then so was Ian when the dealer failed to do this. The fact that the dealer turned the river made things more complicated since the other player can now claim either way (fold or call). Technically, (s)he didn't announce a call yet. Ian mucking his hand actually makes the situation less tricky, since he now has no hand and his opponent does. Sure they're over the line, but I would argue that untill the dealer mucks them the hand is still live.

jacQues