heaven

djeddy

:cool: where is heaven ?

is it all around me but i cant see it ?

is it a far away planet? :cool:

UU

As sang by Belinda Carlisle in her song "Heaven Is A Place On Earth"

Ooh, baby, do you know what thats worth ?
Ooh heaven is a place on earth
They say in heaven love comes first
Well make heaven a place on earth
Ooh heaven is a place on earth

Scofflaw

UU wrote:

As sang by Belinda Carlisle in her song "Heaven Is A Place On Earth"

Mmmm. Treacly.

cordially,
Scofflaw

John Doe

But what particular type of treacle? That's the question.

I think heaven must be an entirely different state of mind to our current one. After all, if you're blissed out, it doesn't matter where you are.

BrianCalgary

A place outside of time and space. Your ticket in: trust in Jesus.

djeddy

:cool: yep that sounds like a good enough answer :cool:

Mrs. MacGyver

I wonder that if you get to Heaven will it be your own particular concept or a general uniform state? I'm just after reading '10 people you meet in heaven' and 'the lovely bones' so hence the strange question!

djeddy

:cool: well please god when i get there, i hope this a place where i feel full @ home, like all of the best of this world combined with all the best of heaven :cool:

UU

BrianCalgary wrote:

A place outside of time and space. Your ticket in: trust in Jesus.

Well then how come Muslims say to get your ticket in one must believe in Allah (God) and live a good life? Then Hindus believe in a complex system of reincarnation (like Buddhists actually) and fulfilling good deeds in past lives to gain access to heaven. A dozen other religions have other concepts of access into heaven so TBH I don't know who to believe. I do think I will go with moreso the whole living a good life belief rather than accepting god or Jesus as one's saviour which I don't think is fair considering one's social background, health, nature and geographical location can influence things.

Here's actually a really good link regarding heaven, it's Wikipedia. I'd strongly encourage Christians to read about the views of other religions on heaven - some are highly interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven

BrianCalgary

UU wrote:

Well then how come Muslims say to get your ticket in one must believe in Allah (God) and live a good life? Then Hindus believe in a complex system of reincarnation (like Buddhists actually) and fulfilling good deeds in past lives to gain access to heaven. A dozen other religions have other concepts of access into heaven so TBH I don't know who to believe. I do think I will go with moreso the whole living a good life belief rather than accepting god or Jesus as one's saviour which I don't think is fair considering one's social background, health, nature and geographical location can influence things.

Here's actually a really good link regarding heaven, it's Wikipedia. I'd strongly encourage Christians to read about the views of other religions on heaven - some are highly interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven

The whole premise of living 'a good life' falls flat when you have to define that 'good life'.

For Al Qaeda blowing up the World Trade Centre constitutes a 'good life'. For the Buddhist, what life are you on and what do you have to atone for in your last life to make this life a good one in order to reach the next step to 'Heaven'.

You see UU the evidence for Christianity is there. You either accept it or you don't. If you do grand, you will spend an eternity with your chosen God. If you don't accept Christ, then you reternity will be spent with your 'god'.

Now which god would you like to spend eternity with? The one who promises no more tears, pain or death, individuality; or the one that promises virgins (imagine being the virgin) or the one that promises a meldng with the unseen force of the universe.

Th echoice is up to you.

The Heaven promised brings a full relationship with the God who created everything, the God who is Love, the God who cares about me. It promises fellowship, joy and laughter; the ability to become who God intended me to be; the opportunity to explore all of creation and to have my questions answered.

Then I might add (all by myself) the chance to play a little football with Pele and most of the Brazilians who won the world cup in 2002 and teh confederations cup in 2005. The chance to spend an eternity with my wife and kids in conscious fellowship with them.

I get right down to it, I am relishing what my existence will look like in 100 years and looking forward to it.

UU

BrianCalgary wrote:

The whole premise of living 'a good life' falls flat when you have to define that 'good life'.

For Al Qaeda blowing up the World Trade Centre constitutes a 'good life'. For the Buddhist, what life are you on and what do you have to atone for in your last life to make this life a good one in order to reach the next step to 'Heaven'.

You see UU the evidence for Christianity is there. You either accept it or you don't. If you do grand, you will spend an eternity with your chosen God. If you don't accept Christ, then you reternity will be spent with your 'god'.

Now which god would you like to spend eternity with? The one who promises no more tears, pain or death, individuality; or the one that promises virgins (imagine being the virgin) or the one that promises a meldng with the unseen force of the universe.

Th echoice is up to you.

The Heaven promised brings a full relationship with the God who created everything, the God who is Love, the God who cares about me. It promises fellowship, joy and laughter; the ability to become who God intended me to be; the opportunity to explore all of creation and to have my questions answered.

Then I might add (all by myself) the chance to play a little football with Pele and most of the Brazilians who won the world cup in 2002 and teh confederations cup in 2005. The chance to spend an eternity with my wife and kids in conscious fellowship with them.

I get right down to it, I am relishing what my existence will look like in 100 years and looking forward to it.

I suppose so Brian. Well TBH I don't know what to believe anymore. In this world, all these different religions never give you space to breath. One is saying this and another is saying that and all are pushing in your face to recruit you as a member of this "church" which guarantees you a ticket to heaven. So for you to say Christianity is right and the rest are a heresy, makes matters worse for me as how do I know that Islam isn't the right one or Judaism or Hinduism or some other one? They all essentially have the same message - The Golden Rule. So now, I refuse to label myself as this and that, focus on the Here and Now, accept everything as it is, and be agnostic. TBH I really don't know if there is a god or not, I don't know if heaven & hell exist, I don't know which religion is right and which is wrong (if any), I don't know what will happen in the future and where I will be in 20 years, I don't know if the bible or the qur'an is true or not. I really do not know! If something happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't. I know only what I know. I don't know what I don't know. I do know when I act badly and hurt somebody, I also know when I treat somebody with compassion and makes then happy. I know when I am sad and need support through hard times.

So, em, sorry for the outburst! I'm just so tired of opposing voices on both sides of my head wanting to succeed in making me believe them. One thing I do know is that I cannot force myself to believe in anything and that is a fact.

BrianCalgary

UU wrote:

So, em, sorry for the outburst! I'm just so tired of opposing voices on both sides of my head wanting to succeed in making me believe them. One thing I do know is that I cannot force myself to believe in anything and that is a fact.

not to worry. I appreciate your honesty and questions.

Sapien

djeddy wrote:

:cool: where is heaven ?

is it all around me but i cant see it ?

is it a far away planet? :cool:

More interestingly, how many of our Christians take the Revelations of St. John literally, and believe that the maximum occupancy of Heaven is 144,000?

It's right there in the text.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

More interestingly, how many of our Christians take the Revelations of St. John literally, and believe that the maximum occupancy of Heaven is 144,000?

It's right there in the text.

That particular passage in Revelation 7 is speaking about a future event in which 12,000 people form each of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed. It doesn't say what they are sealed for. That is for those who onterpret the book of Revaelation as I do. Some is talking about future events, some recounts past events and others where current to teh end of the 1st century AD.

Where do you get the idea that it is talking about Heavenly maximum occupancy? The JW's interpret it as such.

Sapien

All of the Apocalypse is a bit psychedelic, BC. Even the simplest passage is open to diverse interpretations. But of all of them, and in that context, the role of the 12,000 from the 12 Tribes seems quite obvious to me. We are introduced to the angels whose job it is to destroy the Earth, and before they are set to task, God announces that these folks must first be sealed. Quite straightforward, especially by St. John's standards. What else do you suppose it could mean?

Do you believe in the Rapture?

UU

UU wrote:

Then Hindus believe in a complex system of reincarnation (like Buddhists actually)

Not quite.

UU

bluewolf wrote:

Not quite.

Please enlighten me!

UU

UU wrote:

Please enlighten me!

It's rebirth for us
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd47.htm

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

The whole premise of living 'a good life' falls flat when you have to define that 'good life'.

Clearly you don't believe that, since you're perfectly happy with the Christian definition of a good life!


cordially,
Scofflaw

Excelsior

djeddy wrote:

:cool: where is heaven ?

Heaven, in the terms you seem to be talking about, is the post-eschatological regenerated world. Or in other words, heaven is coming and it will be here, on Earth.

djeddy wrote:

is it all around me but i cant see it ?

When the Kingdom of God comes fully, we will be in heaven. So, basing our lives on Jesus words we'd have to believe that we can get a foretaste of heaven because he says it is coming but it is already here.

djeddy wrote:

is it a far away planet? :cool:

Christians have no reason to believe it is anywhere but here.

BrianCalgary

Scofflaw wrote:

Clearly you don't believe that, since you're perfectly happy with the Christian definition of a good life!


cordially,
Scofflaw

A little clarification on my statement. The 'good life ' can only be defined within the context of Christ. All have sinned therefore none can lead a 'good life'.

The Christian is not about leading a 'good life'. The Christian life is about serving God, and understanding that you can not be a good enough person to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

All of the Apocalypse is a bit psychedelic, BC. ?

Agreed, it is. I prepared a study on Revelation a few years ago and as I read and reread it I saw parts thet refer to future events and parts that refer to past events.

Sapien wrote:

Even the simplest passage is open to diverse interpretations.?

Not really. The seven letters to the seven churches are quite clear.

Sapien wrote:

But of all of them, and in that context, the role of the 12,000 from the 12 Tribes seems quite obvious to me. We are introduced to the angels whose job it is to destroy the Earth, and before they are set to task, God announces that these folks must first be sealed. Quite straightforward, especially by St. John's standards. What else do you suppose it could mean?.?

To look at this particular passage as a future event.
Mankind has told God to take a hike. God is slowly removing His influence on creation. Creation begins to spin out of control as angles, who due to their nature are angels from Hell, arrive to wreak their havoc on creation as their revenge on God. The other purpose it serves is to give people the opportunity to get a real taste of Hell, creation without God. Instead of repenting people curse God for what He is doing to them (instead of looking to themselves for the fault).

You are right, prior to this happening 144,000 from the tribes of Israel are sealed. We think that they are to be witnesses to Christ during the period to follow and that the angels can not harm them. These 144,000 are sealed for a role in future events. When we then flip to Revelation 7:9 and it speaks of a great multitude, uncountable, standing before the throne of God.

So one passage speaks of 144,000 another speaks of a 'great multitude, uncountable'.

The 144,000 are sealed for a particlulr reason, the uncountable multitude are in Heaven, so to assume that the 144,000 are the only ones destined for Heaven is not right.

Sapien wrote:

Do you believe in the Rapture?

I believe it is a possibilty. The question is: Am I or are you ready for the return of Christ, however it happens?

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

To look at this particular passage as a future event.
Mankind has told God to take a hike. God is slowly removing His influence on creation. Creation begins to spin out of control as angles, who due to their nature are angels from Hell, arrive to wreak their havoc on creation as their revenge on God. The other purpose it serves is to give people the opportunity to get a real taste of Hell, creation without God. Instead of repenting people curse God for what He is doing to them (instead of looking to themselves for the fault).

You are right, prior to this happening 144,000 from the tribes of Israel are sealed. We think that they are to be witnesses to Christ during the period to follow and that the angels can not harm them. These 144,000 are sealed for a role in future events. When we then flip to Revelation 7:9 and it speaks of a great multitude, uncountable, standing before the throne of God.

So one passage speaks of 144,000 another speaks of a 'great multitude, uncountable'.

The 144,000 are sealed for a particlulr reason, the uncountable multitude are in Heaven, so to assume that the 144,000 are the only ones destined for Heaven is not right.

That all seems terribly fuzzy to me, BC. Where does it say that the four angels are fallen? The passage mentions nothing of demonic revenge. I would take it that they are acting upon the instructions of God. Your interpretation seems highly nuanced - a remarkable weakness for someone who depends so entirely upon the authority of scripture.

And I don't think it is a contradiction to say that 144,000 people are uncountable. Try standing in front of a crowd of one hundred or so people and counting them. Difficult. 144,000? Impossible. Uncountable.

No. I'm pretty confident that the maximum occupancy of Heaven is just that.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

And I don't think it is a contradiction to say that 144,000 people are uncountable. Try standing in front of a crowd of one hundred or so people and counting them. Difficult. 144,000? Impossible. Uncountable.

No. I'm pretty confident that the maximum occupancy of Heaven is just that.

If at the beginning of the chapter the number of 144,000 is given then it is a countable number.

The number in verse 9, if it was 144,000 then it would be given also.

But John states that the number of those in Heaven at the throne of God is uncountable, it is so big.

The first part of the chapter gives a number to be sealed: 144,000.

Verse 9 talks about the number at the throne of God (Heaven) as being uncountable.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

If at the beginning of the chapter the number of 144,000 is given then it is a countable number.

The number in verse 9, if it was 144,000 then it would be given also.

But John states that the number of those in Heaven at the throne of God is uncountable, it is so big.

The first part of the chapter gives a number to be sealed: 144,000.

Verse 9 talks about the number at the throne of God (Heaven) as being uncountable.

Yes. That's precisely what you said before. My point stands. I know the prose of the Revelation was basic, but John may still have wanted a touch of descriptive diversity in his great work. Y'know - he probably didn't want to keep repeating "one hundred and forty four thousand", "one hundred and forty four thousand", "one hundred and forty four thousand" again and again, and so would employ variations. Uncountable could easily refer to a gathering of people 144,000 strong. Remember that John is describing a vision. He may have known through this vision that there were 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes in the scene (a cherub may have explained it to him in passing or something), but he is still conveying to us the visual impact. In that scene a gathering so immense would be uncountable. Quite literally, one could not count the number of people. Just because he knew how many were there, it does not mean he could count them. Do you see?

Given that there are no other details explaining who comprise this "uncountable" congregation, and given that it is consistent within the text, as I have shown, to identify them with 144,000 "sealed" tribesmen, an intelligent reader must take it that that was what was intended.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

Yes. That's precisely what you said before. My point stands. I know the prose of the Revelation was basic, but John may still have wanted a touch of descriptive diversity in his great work. Y'know - he probably didn't want to keep repeating "one hundred and forty four thousand", "one hundred and forty four thousand", "one hundred and forty four thousand" again and again, and so would employ variations. Uncountable could easily refer to a gathering of people 144,000 strong. Remember that John is describing a vision. He may have known through this vision that there were 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes in the scene (a cherub may have explained it to him in passing or something), but he is still conveying to us the visual impact. In that scene a gathering so immense would be uncountable. Quite literally, one could not count the number of people. Just because he knew how many were there, it does not mean he could count them. Do you see?

Given that there are no other details explaining who comprise this "uncountable" congregation, and given that it is consistent within the text, as I have shown, to identify them with 144,000 "sealed" tribesmen, an intelligent reader must take it that that was what was intended.

Not at all. The first passage 7:1-8 is talking about "Tribes of Israel' and the exact number from each that are sealed.

The second passage 7:9-17 starts with: 'After this' - clearly indicating a new event. It continues to say 'a great multitude that no one could count, from EVERY NATION, tribe, people and language'. We are now talking about more than just Israel. It goes on then to a dialogue between John and one of the elders as to who these people are, from EVERY NATION. John is told that it is 'they who have come out of the great tribulation'.

I contend that an intelligent reader must take it that that was what was intended. Two different scenes, two different groups as indicated. The first group strictly from Israel, the second group from ALL NATIONS.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

That all seems terribly fuzzy to me, BC. Where does it say that the four angels are fallen? The passage mentions nothing of demonic revenge. I would take it that they are acting upon the instructions of God. Your interpretation seems highly nuanced - a remarkable weakness for someone who depends so entirely upon the authority of scripture.

My mistake. Wrong four angels.

The ones I was thinking of are in Rev. 9:14-15
13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet. I heard a voice speak from the four corners of the gold altar that stands in the presence of God. 14 The voice spoke to this angel and said, “Release the four angels who are tied up beside the great Euphrates River.” 15 The four angels had been prepared for this very hour and day and month and year. Now they were set free to kill a third of all people.

My assumption is based on the fact that these angels were kept bound. God knowing what they would do when released. A chance to say to humanity 'do you really want to spend an eternity with the likes of these?'

Excelsior

Sapien, I am sure you'll be able to access Enoch, Daniel or 4 Ezra online. All of which are good examples of Jewish Apocolyptic. It will make understanding Revelations a whole lot easier if you understand the genre.

Sapien

Excelsior wrote:

Sapien, I am sure you'll be able to access Enoch, Daniel or 4 Ezra online. All of which are good examples of Jewish Apocolyptic. It will make understanding Revelations a whole lot easier if you understand the genre.

Having (presumably) read them, what bearing do you think they would have on the questions that have been posed in this thread?