not even mildly interesting tournament hand

El Stuntman

Tribeca 20k guaranteed last night

we are down to 45 (top 27 get paid) from 440
I have 75k in chips , average is 40k.
Blinds are 1600/3,200
I am on a rush and have been playing agressively. Everyone at table apart from CL (who has 150k) is either folding or raising all-in PF (which is somewhat boring but to be expected)
CL's range is quite wide and he has recently shown down AJ, JTs, 87s

CL is BB, I am in the CO and get dealt 88

Folded around to me and I make it 9,600. Button and SB fold.
CL makes it 16,000.
I call, pot is 32k and I have just under 60k left behind

Flop is J72 rainbow

CL bets 6,400

Your move Meester Bond....thoughts on PF raise and susequent call also

Hitman Actual

Strange hand, but online tournament hands freak me out anyway. You say he's been showing down a wide range, but what has he been (min re-) raising with (from the BB!). And then betting out pot/5? Seems like a donkey to me. I'm definately not folding to such a small bet, but with your stack size (and his) I dont like to make that pot much bigger. I probably call and take it from there. But, strange hand.

Edit: PF is fine, I think. If I think the CL is making some weak-ass attempt to defend his BB with that min-raise (you say you've been aggressive, after all), then I might just jam the lot in, but other than that I just call the m-r.

Bp!

Someone posted a hand not long ago in a very similar situation on Tribecca towards bubble time against a push or fold CL and found out his minny reraise was KK.

This CL's hand seems similar, if he has been pushin or folding up to this point and decides to only min raise you OOP its very unlikely your 8's are in great shape.

His bet on the flop looks very inviting to reraise but if he pushes you have to fold. I think let him have it here and go on and bully the shorties. I dont think hes bluffin here too often giving his description

Its very frustrating to get deep in an MTT and go busto with a marginal hand esp when you have a very playable stack.

p.s the blogs purty funny El stunto!

ArmaniJeanss

I'm folding here - you will find lots of easy spots to pick up chips as the bubble approaches. This particular hand may be an opportunity for chips, but it is also tricky and I'd run away from it.

Gholimoli

i would often reraise this pre-flop.ask him if he wants to play a big pot out of Out of position and see what his reply is. if he folds good, if he raises then drop it .if he flat calls then you have position on him.
As played I don’t think I fold here .i call the bet and see what he does on the turn and take it from there.

Bp!

Problem here is if we call, the pot is now approx 43,000. We will have 52,000 left and the CL here will most likely bet on turn, if we decide to play on the turn we are commited.

Marq

Gholimoli wrote:

i would often reraise this pre-flop.ask him if he wants to play a big pot out of Out of position and see what his reply is. if he folds good, if he raises then drop it .if he flat calls then you have position on him.
As played I don’t think I fold here .i call the bet and see what he does on the turn and take it from there.

I really dislike this reraise pre-flop. It commits almost half of our stack to the pot and means that we're practically committed on a variety of flops (including the one that came down in the actual hand). The villian's positional disadvantage will be all but negated in a hand where most of the money goes in on the flop or before it.

Gholimoli

Marq wrote:

I really dislike this reraise pre-flop. It commits almost half of our stack to the pot and means that we're practically committed on a variety of flops (including the one that came down in the actual hand). The villian's positional disadvantage will be all but negated in a hand where most of the money goes in on the flop or before it.

If villain was described as solid I would say even dropping our hand pre-flop.
But his not and he is shown that he is willing to play with a wide range of hands.
The problem with the flat call here is that there is not going to be that many flops that you like.
Do you know where you are if flop comes 7 high?
What about a flop with one over card?
If you flat call your effectively playing for set value .the reason for this is the aggressive nature of villain here.
Hi reraise pre –flop could be “I defend my big blind with anything” just as much as good cards kind of hand.
I like a flat call against a less aggressive player.

Marq

So your answer to this uncertainty is to commit yourself pre-flop against a player who has just re-raised out of position? There is almost no re-raise that you can make here that doesn't A) put you all in pre-flop or give the CL such good pot odds that he has to call with any two, putting us in the exact same problem situation that you describe above.

While villian's involvement range is quite wide, I expect his re-raising OOP range is much narrower. I probably fold and wait. Even calling damages my stack quite a lot.

As the hand played out, I think that the tiny bet on the flop could most likely mean one of two things. Either, AK that has missed and the bet is a blocking bet. OR a set/very high overpair that wants to continue to build the pot while not scaring away the hero. ~i would raise

Hitman Actual

Gholimoli wrote:

If villain was described as solid I would say even dropping our hand pre-flop.
But his not and he is shown that he is willing to play with a wide range of hands.
The problem with the flat call here is that there is not going to be that many flops that you like.
Do you know where you are if flop comes 7 high?
What about a flop with one over card?
If you flat call your effectively playing for set value .the reason for this is the aggressive nature of villain here.
Hi reraise pre –flop could be “I defend my big blind with anything” just as much as good cards kind of hand.
I like a flat call against a less aggressive player.

I agree with a couple of things: There are not a lot of flops that 88 will like, and it's very possible that CL is defending his BB. But I dont like any sort of re-raise here that isn't a push. Your stack just doesn't allow a smallish re-raise, I think it just commits you when you're more than likely in big trouble.

Daithio

This is a pretty tough hand. I don't like reraising him preflop at all though, no need to committ so many of your chips with such a marginal hand when you have no idea what he might have. If he's been reraising alot with rubbish then I might push pre, but otherwise I think I just flat call. Then when the flop comes it's not really the worst for a pair of 88. His bet into a 32k pot looks pretty weak IMO. I might make it 20k and see what he does. If he reraises you here you know he has you beaten and you can get away from it, but with such a weak lead I doubt he will reraise you. If he flat calls it's pretty likely you're good and you'll probably get to check it down anyway.

EDIT to answer OP's questions. The preflop raise is standard, and IMO you have to call the min raise there, for set value alone. Also it looks REALLY weak if you fold your raises to min raises, you'll have people coming over the top of you left right and centre if you do.

fuzzbox

Good spot for a raise, maybe even a minraise.

Hate it if he calls.

cardshark202

My first thought, sick as it sounds was to minraise flop and push turn.

Hitman Actual

Daithio wrote:

If he flat calls it's pretty likely you're good and you'll probably get to check it down anyway.

I actually think the opposite, I think if he calls then you're behind.

Daithio

lenny_leonard wrote:

I actually think the opposite, I think if he calls then you're behind.

In such a large pot with a strong hand here most people won't slowplay. There's no need, your opponent has already shown strength so you might as well just get it all in. It could mean a set but that's pretty unlikely, QQ- AA are pushing on the flop. A good player with a set would too I reckon.

Hitman Actual

Daithio wrote:

In such a large pot with a strong hand here most people won't slowplay. There's no need, your opponent has already shown strength so you might as well just get it all in. It could mean a set but that's pretty unlikely, QQ- AA are pushing on the flop. A good player with a set would too I reckon.

I'll rephrase slightly: if we raise and he doesn't fold, I think we're in trouble, 'cos I dont see what hands he stays involved with that we're ahead of.

Edit: I dont see any reason why this player is good anyway, the way he's played this hand. The m-r for a start; makes me think he's a tool. But maybe that sort of stuff works online.

Bp!

No he is a tool for sure, but is he bad enough to min raise with AK/AQ? I doubt it (given him benefit of the doubt for being CL) so his raise preflop should be the goods (AA-QQ)

His bet on the flop is gettin most people here to want to raise him so thats a good thing if he indeed has AA-QQ

Bandana boy

El Stuntman wrote:

Tribeca 20k guaranteed last night

we are down to 45 (top 27 get paid) from 440

now i am probably more guilty of this than anyone else who post here but the question has to be asked

Why are you picking such a marginal spot to get involved with the cl when you have managed to get so deep ?

El Stuntman

Bandana boy wrote:

now i am probably more guilty of this than anyone else who post here but the question has to be asked

Why are you picking such a marginal spot to get involved with the cl when you have managed to get so deep ?

88 is marginal against a random hand?

El Stuntman

Marq wrote:

As the hand played out, I think that the tiny bet on the flop could most likely mean one of two things. Either, AK that has missed and the bet is a blocking bet. OR a set/very high overpair that wants to continue to build the pot while not scaring away the hero. ~i would raise

very good analysis Marq (honourable mentions to BP and Armani)

I put him on the missed AK and came up with the same blocker bet interpretation

and.....shoved (I was feeling butch and hey, in it to win it and all that rubbish...). Hee-hee, he'll fold and I'll be over 100k and these bubble-avoiding beeatches will suffer when I go into mega-steal mode!! That'll learn him not to be min-raising!!! Hoo-ha!!!! (see the intellectual way that I analyse these situations)

wait a minute, what's that? he calls? whoopsie

he had AA :mad: , amazingly no runner-runner straight or an 8 (software was clearly malfunctioning) on the turn or the river and off to cash games for me...

<this was a somewhat irritating departure as I exited the same tournie 41st the night before when my AA couldn't see off 88, all-in PF>

new mouse please!! gay min-raising crap nearly always means AA in these situations for some reason....clearly I should have seen the signs and folded to the PF min-raise!

ocallagh

Min raises early on in these tournaments are weak, but I think at the push or fold stage of these MTTs (generally near the bubble), people are scared to play hands (except for some aggro players). There is a lot of folding around to the BB, the only raises are the ocassional decent hand OOP and the occasional button steal. A min re-raise OOP at this stage is not weak. It is usually KK or AA!

Bandana boy

El Stuntman wrote:

88 is marginal against a random hand?

Well yes 88 is actually pretty marginal against a random hand
but you are not playing a random hand you raised and he re-raised you so we can discount most of the hands 88 is a good distance in front of and we are left with over pair or over cards this is very marginal
now at this point you are messing with the only player who can take you out of a tournament when you are nicely postioned stack and table and table image to go really deep

Dude i am really guilty of this myself trying to play silly buggers with the cl when there is lots of ss still around who are being forced into hands against you

El Stuntman

Bandana boy wrote:

Well yes 88 is actually pretty marginal against a random hand
but you are not playing a random hand you raised and he re-raised you so we can discount most of the hands 88 is a good distance in front of and we are left with over pair or over cards this is very marginal
now at this point you are messing with the only player who can take you out of a tournament when you are nicely postioned stack and table and table image to go really deep

Dude i am really guilty of this myself trying to play silly buggers with the cl when there is lots of ss still around who are being forced into hands against you

sorry BB, thought you meant pre-flop when you said it was a marginal hand

well once he min-raised PF I felt duty-bound to call which I think we are all agreed was OK

the min-raise on the flop stank of a blocker bet, and me to re-raiseg 20/25k here effectively commits me anyway so I went full tank. Gah, I hate stupid low buy-in tournies....

would have served him right if I'd had 77....