Does God really want to be worshiped?

ScumLord

If you where in Gods position and you made this amazing universe and these magnificent creatures (us) that where self aware and super intelligent would you want them to spend their lifes on their knees worshiping you.

Imagine it. Your great creation comes back to you and just grovels in front of you saying things like "your so great, I'm not worthy". Do you think you'd be annoyed if that's all they did? Maybe God created us to be he's equals, friends even.

Should we really be belittling ourselves in front of him? Would you not be disappointed if your children never left home and grew into self sufficient adults that where equals to yourself?

robindch

> would you want them to spend their lifes on their knees worshiping you.

Nah, constant praise would be an ongoing embarassment. And anyway, even if as a major-league deity, I was going to demand it, I'd give them something more comfortable than knobbly knees to do it on. A bit of "intelligent design", so to speak.

Zombrex

ScumLord wrote:

Should we really be belittling ourselves in front of him? Would you not be disappointed if your children never left home and grew into self sufficient adults that where equals to yourself?

God, by definition of being a perfect moral being, would not want or require us to give Him anything, let alone worship. The desire for worship and praise is a human frailty, one which a god would not possess.

Now some Christians get around this worship paradox by stating that "worship" does not mean kneeling and praising God, but infact just means living how God wants us to live. That idea seems to be contradicted by Christian teaching over the years.

Others claim that God deserves to be worshiped, so it is not a frailty of God to expect this aswell. That doesn't make much sense

Fallen Seraph

Monty Python wrote:

GOD: Arthur! Arthur, King of the Britons! Oh, don't grovel!
[singing stops]
One thing I can't stand, it's people groveling.
ARTHUR: Sorry.
[boom]
GOD: And don't apologize. Every time I try to talk to someone it's 'sorry
this' and 'forgive me that' and 'I'm not worthy'.
[boom]
What are you doing now?!
ARTHUR: I'm averting my eyes, O Lord.
GOD: Well, don't. It's like those miserable Psalms-- they're so depressing.
Now knock it off!
ARTHUR: Yes, Lord.
GOD: Right! Arthur, King of the Britons, your Knights of the Round Table
shall have a task to make them an example in these dark times.
ARTHUR: Good idea, O Lord!
GOD: 'Course it's a good idea! Behold!

?

Dades

Anytime I hear about the requirement to 'worship' I am reminded of the saying:

"God was made in man's image".

BrianCalgary

There is a debate going on in the North American church as to what is and how to worship.

In the traditional churches is was getting on bended knee and rhyme off a few prayers that were preset.

Now it comes down to music. Our worship leaders are all musicians and they lead us in worship by playing music and flashing the words up for all to sing.

Worship is in my mind (because I don't play any instruments, am tone deaf, have no pitch and can't sing and I can't imagine God wanting to listen to it) using your God given gifts to His glory.

God needs nothing, He is in perfect relationship as the Trinity. Worship is for us, to connect with God. He pours His love out on us and desires for us to be fulfilled. Worship fulfills us.

There are those who do spend time on bended knee to worship, they pray for those like me who are out doing, and get quite bored being on bended knee.

T-1111111111111

BrianCalgary wrote:

There is a debate going on in the North American church as to what is and how to worship.

In the traditional churches is was getting on bended knee and rhyme off a few prayers that were preset.

Now it comes down to music. Our worship leaders are all musicians and they lead us in worship by playing music and flashing the words up for all to sing.

Worship is in my mind (because I don't play any instruments, am tone deaf, have no pitch and can't sing and I can't imagine God wanting to listen to it) using your God given gifts to His glory.

God needs nothing, He is in perfect relationship as the Trinity. Worship is for us, to connect with God. He pours His love out on us and desires for us to be fulfilled. Worship fulfills us.

There are those who do spend time on bended knee to worship, they pray for those like me who are out doing, and get quite bored being on bended knee.

"Beautiful" - music and singing! This is how bad it's becoming... What else will people change?

PS Almighty Allah created nobody in His "image". Not even this "image" word can be attributed to Him. In other words, none is like Him. "God created man in ..." is one bad false assertion, a very very old one, which some people are repeating even nowadays...

robindch

> This is how bad it's becoming... What else will people change?

What exactly do you mean?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

BrianCalgary wrote:

Now it comes down to music. Our worship leaders are all musicians and they lead us in worship by playing music and flashing the words up for all to sing.

Worship is in my mind (because I don't play any instruments, am tone deaf, have no pitch and can't sing and I can't imagine God wanting to listen to it) using your God given gifts to His glory.

I don't think i'd be alone in saying that "Christian Rock" is absolute ****e

T-1111111111111

robindch wrote:

> This is how bad it's becoming... What else will people change?

What exactly do you mean?

What I mean is that "singing & music" was not ordered by Almighty. He never said to the people that they should sing & "play some instruments" - that this is the form of the prayer He prescribed. That was "yet another human invention".

Now do you think God is pleased with that? (like Brian said - now it comes down to music). I say, and tomorrow will be what? Playing rugby, basketball, etc. as a formal way of praying or what?

So tomorrow they might invent something else fooling themselves that God is pleased with their invention, however I personally would think that it is going astray and so would probably all the Muslims.

I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

Zombrex

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Now do you think God is pleased with that?

By definition it is impossible for God to be pleased or displeased with anything humans do, because if it were it would mean humans have some control over the emotional state of God, we can choose to put Him in a state of displeasure. It is impossible for me to please or displease God as I have no control over God. My actions are completely irrelivent to the equation.

Which is why worship is largely an irrelivent concept when talking about a god. God does not require or want to be worshippied, worshipping God or not worship God is irrelevent to God Himself.

Asiaprod

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

More than you can guess. Your message is getting louder and clearer by each post. By the way, music as a form of worship way out dates your faith. And I also believe was a great part of your faith till you decided to reinterpret your Holy Book.

As for

It is impossible for me to please or displease God as I have no control over God. My actions are completely irrelivent to the equation.

You must think we really are stupid, we're not.

T-1111111111111

Wicknight wrote:

By definition it is impossible for God to be pleased or displeased with anything humans do, because if it were it would mean humans have some control over the emotional state of God, we can choose to put Him in a state of displeasure. It is impossible for me to please or displease God as I have no control over God. My actions are completely irrelivent to the equation.

Which is why worship is largely an irrelivent concept when talking about a god. God does not require or want to be worshippied, worshipping God or not worship God is irrelevent to God Himself.

I could argue about how irrelevant that is - it remains to be seen and in the fact that we all will see it I have absolutely no doubts.

Zombrex

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I could argue about how irrelevant that is - it remains to be seen and in the fact that we all will see it I have absolutely no doubts.

Logically it has to be irrelivent in relation to pleasing or displeasing God, otherwise you would have some (albet limited) control over God and His emotional state, which is, by definition of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god, impossible. God's state, including his emotional state, must be constant, by definition otherwise He is not a perfect being. He cannot be pleased or displeased by out actions.

Unless you wish to argue that you can in fact, through your actions, change the emotional state of a god (ie put him in a state of displeasure). What would that make you, what would a creature that can influence a god be called?)

ScumLord

I don't know God sounded pretty peeved when Eve went fiddling with his apples. I'm sure I've heard bits of the bible where he was happy or angry about things people did.

I can see Ts point that modern Christians seem to think whatever makes them happy makes God happy. It means they can justify doing anything in their own minds because they think God always agrees with them.

On the other hand the muslim way seems very stuck in the past, Gods world is always evolving and changing to not change with it seems wrong. I don't trust that people 1500 years ago had the knowledge to engineer the perfect set of rules for society. I know you will argue that it was God but I can't trust that they didn't just make these rules up to suit themselves. You'd have to accept that it's very plausible for the time period.

Zombrex

ScumLord wrote:

I don't know God sounded pretty peeved when Eve went fiddling with his apples. I'm sure I've heard bits of the bible where he was happy or angry about things people did.

Oh there are, which is one of the great paradoxs and contradictions of the Judeo/Christian religion. That being that God is a perfect being yet is described in the Bible (which is literal afterall) with traits commonly associated with the weaker sides of humanity, such as anger and jealousy.

These are two very incompatable and contradictary concepts, and tbh I find it amazing that Jews, Christians and Muslims don't all become Buddests instead

T-1111111111111

Wicknight wrote:

Logically it has to be irrelivent in relation to pleasing or displeasing God, otherwise you would have some (albet limited) control over God and His emotional state, which is, by definition of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god, impossible. God's state, including his emotional state, must be constant, by definition otherwise He is not a perfect being. He cannot be pleased or displeased by out actions.

Unless you wish to argue that you can in fact, through your actions, change the emotional state of a god (ie put him in a state of displeasure). What would that make you, what would a creature that can influence a god be called?)

I will not say something about God that He didnt say about Himself. But reading (the translation of) the Qur'an it is obvious that He is angry with those who do ill deeds but He is still Merciful to them, all the time. After their death however things will change. He will be Compassionate with some and Angry at some others (on the Day of Judgement).

But, but and but: His Anger cannot be compared to ours, his Mercy cannot be compared to ours, etc. cos nothing is like Him. Also, you cannot say that God has emotions or that His emotions change (cos you don't even know that He has emotions). You are thinking of God having emotions like we, humans. But that is not so. Also, you think "God's emotions are changing" - with this you are attributing something to God which might be completely incorrect.

Further, you are also suggesting that God is like humans - that He gets provoked, so (by what your words mean) "He has to respond, He gets angry cos He has to get angry, etc." like He is a human.

See, you're thinking of God like He is one of us. Until you change your "model" we will never understand each other. Your mind and my mind and any human's mind is like a little black box and outside it there's even deeper darkness when we try to understand God. We cannot. So let's not even try. And especially don't try to think of Him like He is one of His creatures, He is their Creator.

I will die, you will die, but He will not die. He is not dependent on anything, but we are dependent on Him and His Laws.

If you think you're not then try to:

- try not to blink with your eyes for a day (even this is a law "installed" by God)
- try not to breathe for like 10 minutes
- try not to drink or eat for a few months
- try not to die
- try to willingly stop your heart for an hour or even for a second from beating
- try to stop your internal organs from working 24/7, give them a one day break if you can
- try not to go to toilet for a week
- etc.

I could give you a list of probably several hundreds or thousands of the laws you have to obey. That's fact. Try to save yourself from death.

You're trying to understand the Creator but you can't even deny that you have to obey His Laws whether you like it or not. So please be a little bit more respectful and thankful to Him, He gave you all of that, and your fingers which you will use to post me a reply, right?

Again, Almighty God is not like us, nothing is like Him.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

T-1111111111111 wrote:

If you think you're not then try to:

- try not to blink with your eyes for a day (even this is a law "installed" by God)
- try not to breathe for like 10 minutes
- try not to drink or eat for a few months
- try not to die
- try to willingly stop your heart for an hour or even for a second from beating
- try to stop your internal organs from working 24/7, give them a one day break if you can
- try not to go to toilet for a week
- etc.

Personally, as an atheist, i would see all of these "laws" as having perfectily formed scientific explanations.

ScumLord

- try not to go to toilet for a week

Been there done that.. I beat God, does that make me a saint or something should I inform the pope!

Further, you are also suggesting that God is like humans - that He gets provoked, so (by what your words mean) "He has to respond, He gets angry cos He has to get angry, etc." like He is a human.

Didn't God make us in his own image? It would then be a fair assumtion that he is fairly similar to us as Human emotion and thinking is unique, most other animals dont' come close. Surely our emotions are based on his in that respect. Isn't what makes us so special is that we can aspire to be like him?

I don't belive that God is anything like mentioned in the holy books, they see him as a king, in their minds kings where all powerful but we know now they are not. There are many things in the universe with power they couldn't have imagined so is it right to think of him like a king when he could be something more similar to gravity.

T-1111111111111

ScumLord wrote:

Didn't God make us in his own image?

That's something that we Muslims don't think nor say, but Christians and some others maybe do.

ScumLord

Oh right sorry, I thought that was old testiment and old testiment was universal.

Personally, as an atheist, i would see all of these "laws" as having perfectily formed scientific explanations.

Although they would be Gods/laws of nature but just becasue they may not apply to God doesn't make us any less important.

We can do things other animals can do I don't think that's makes us any more important than them without bacteria the world wouldn't work.

T, do you think God needs us and our worship? How important do you think you are to God?

T-1111111111111

ScumLord wrote:

T, do you think God needs us and our worship? How important do you think you are to God?

No, He does not need us, He never did need us, He never will need us.
He is the Majestic.

He also does not need our worship and He never needed it nor will He ever need it, but we do need it, we do benefit from it.

Zombrex

T-1111111111111 wrote:

But, but and but: His Anger cannot be compared to ours, his Mercy cannot be compared to ours, etc. cos nothing is like Him.

Then it isn't anger, or mercy .... these are human emotions. If God is God then He doesn't possess emotions like humans, so terming them "anger" or "mercy" is largely pointless.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

You are thinking of God having emotions like we, humans.

No I'm not, you are. You claim God gets angry, that God shows compassion.

Yet later you claim God does not have emotions like we do because He is so much more that we are.

That is the contradiction I spoke of earlier.

On the one hand Christians and Muslims equate God as having and emotional structure like humans, He gets angry, He feels sad, He shows compassion. On the other hand you also state that He is nothing like us simple humans.

To marry these two conflicting and contradictary views you (and others on this forum) say this His anger is nothing like our angry, that His love is nothing like our love, that His compassion is nothing like our compassion.

That doesn't make sense. If they are nothing like ours then why describe it in the terms of humans.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Also, you think "God's emotions are changing" - with this you are attributing something to God which might be completely incorrect.

That was my point.

By definition of being a perfect being God's emotions do not change, which is why it is nonsensical to speak of God experiening jealousy, or anger etc

God know everything, that has or will happen. Worship Him or not worshiping Him cannot please God because He knows you will or will not worship Him before you do. He knew from teh instant time was created, and probably before that.

Nothing you will do will effect Gods emotional state, since His emotional state is fixed and always will be.

Worship, in relation to God being please or displease is irrelivent. God doesn't get pleased or displease, to claim so is to enter into the paradox I describe before.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

See, you're thinking of God like He is one of us.

No, really I'm not.

I'm pointing out the contradiction in the fact that Jews Christians and Muslims referr to God in terms as if He is one of us.

You yourself asked the question "does this please God" ... whcih as I've tried to explain is not logical a statement to ponder. God cannot be pleased or displease with anything we do, since He is a god.

Which is why the claim that God demands or expects worship from his subjects is illogical.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

- try not to blink with your eyes for a day (even this is a law "installed" by God)
- try not to breathe for like 10 minutes
- try not to drink or eat for a few months
- try not to die
- try to willingly stop your heart for an hour or even for a second from beating
- try to stop your internal organs from working 24/7, give them a one day break if you can
- try not to go to toilet for a week
- etc.

Bit off topic there T, and I'm not sure why you picked these things. They aren't "laws", but biological constructs. I have to breath because my body needs oxygen to burn to produce energy to sustain my metobolic system. That isn't a "law", anymore than requiring that you put fuel in your car if you want to go to the shops is a "law"

A much better example would be the universal laws of nature and physics, such as gravity or electromagnatism. These are fixed (as far as we understand) and were fixed from the moment of the big bang.

For example it is theortically impossible to change the gravity constant.

That isn't necessarily a sign there is a god, but if you want a law you have to obey it is much better than needing to go to the toliet ... :rolleyes:

T-1111111111111 wrote:

You're trying to understand the Creator but you can't even deny that you have to obey His Laws whether you like it or not.

Well it depends on if you accept the universal gravity constant was created by God or not. The fact that it exists doesn't support either position either way.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Again, Almighty God is not like us, nothing is like Him.

Exactly, so

Is it not blasphemous to claim He feels anger?

Is it not blasphemous to claim He can be pleased or displeased?

Is it not blasphemous to claim He requires worship from us?

As you claim God is nothing like anything else you also are claiming quite specific details about Him, in terms that would fit a human (anger, being pleased, jealousy) not a supreme being.

These are the contradictions I spoke of before

UU

Sorry but this whole concept of god is making my head spin!

Hey! If god then needs not to be worshipped, then why do people still bother going to church, etc. and praying? Wouldn't it thus make more sense just to live in the here and now and try to be a good person? Unless theists are just afraid of getting turned into pillars of salt! Lol!

T-1111111111111

Wicknight wrote:

Then it isn't anger, or mercy .... these are human emotions. If God is God then He doesn't possess emotions like humans, so terming them "anger" or "mercy" is largely pointless.


No I'm not, you are. You claim God gets angry, that God shows compassion.

Yet later you claim God does not have emotions like we do because He is so much more that we are.

That is the contradiction I spoke of earlier.

On the one hand Christians and Muslims equate God as having and emotional structure like humans, He gets angry, He feels sad, He shows compassion. On the other hand you also state that He is nothing like us simple humans.

To marry these two conflicting and contradictary views you (and others on this forum) say this His anger is nothing like our angry, that His love is nothing like our love, that His compassion is nothing like our compassion.

That doesn't make sense. If they are nothing like ours then why describe it in the terms of humans.


That was my point.

By definition of being a perfect being God's emotions do not change, which is why it is nonsensical to speak of God experiening jealousy, or anger etc

God know everything, that has or will happen. Worship Him or not worshiping Him cannot please God because He knows you will or will not worship Him before you do. He knew from teh instant time was created, and probably before that.

Nothing you will do will effect Gods emotional state, since His emotional state is fixed and always will be.

Worship, in relation to God being please or displease is irrelivent. God doesn't get pleased or displease, to claim so is to enter into the paradox I describe before.


No, really I'm not.

I'm pointing out the contradiction in the fact that Jews Christians and Muslims referr to God in terms as if He is one of us.

You yourself asked the question "does this please God" ... whcih as I've tried to explain is not logical a statement to ponder. God cannot be pleased or displease with anything we do, since He is a god.

Which is why the claim that God demands or expects worship from his subjects is illogical.


Bit off topic there T, and I'm not sure why you picked these things. They aren't "laws", but biological constructs. I have to breath because my body needs oxygen to burn to produce energy to sustain my metobolic system. That isn't a "law", anymore than requiring that you put fuel in your car if you want to go to the shops is a "law"

A much better example would be the universal laws of nature and physics, such as gravity or electromagnatism. These are fixed (as far as we understand) and were fixed from the moment of the big bang.

For example it is theortically impossible to change the gravity constant.

That isn't necessarily a sign there is a god, but if you want a law you have to obey it is much better than needing to go to the toliet ... :rolleyes:


Well it depends on if you accept the universal gravity constant was created by God or not. The fact that it exists doesn't support either position either way.



Exactly, so

Is it not blasphemous to claim He feels anger?

Is it not blasphemous to claim He can be pleased or displeased?

Is it not blasphemous to claim He requires worship from us?

As you claim God is nothing like anything else you also are claiming quite specific details about Him, in terms that would fit a human (anger, being pleased, jealousy) not a supreme being.

These are the contradictions I spoke of before

Wicky, I don't think you understand this subject at all (or better to say, you don't want to understand it)

God is the Most Merciful.
God will get angry with nonbelievers on the Day of Judgement - what really that anger is, I wouldn't know, but what we do know, is that nothing is comparable unto Him.

Not to make this long:

If Allah (swt) Himself says something about Himself in the Qur'an, then it is so. So it is not blasphemous. But if I add something new, something that Allah (swt) Himself never said or revealed to His Prophet (saws) (as recorded then in the Qur'an and the Hadith), then it could be blasphemous.

And you should be a sign to yourself that God exist, surely you did not create yourself and neither did your parents and their parents, ...

Wicknight wrote:

A much better example would be the universal laws of nature and physics, such as gravity or electromagnatism. These are fixed (as far as we understand) and were fixed from the moment of the big bang.

For example it is theortically impossible to change the gravity constant

See, you yourself answered that there must be some higher force or intelligence that created/set up these laws, which are so beautiful, aren't they?

Now something kicked off that big bang, right? A perfect order in the universe was the consequence of the big bang. Now how strange that is? Blow your house with a bomb or your car and I think you and I know what kinda mess you will end up with.

But this universe is in a perfect order, is it not? With all its laws, etc.

So think for you have no excuses, you got your brains, same as me, as your gift. Now use them and think a bit more about this creation.

And BTW, who do you think fixed these laws in the universe? They surely didn't fix themselves and surely all of this didn't come by a chance - universe is not a casino.

Wibbs

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Wicky, I don't think you understand this subject at all (or better to say, you don't want to understand it)

Nice patronising tone to start.

God is the Most Merciful.
God will get angry with nonbelievers on the Day of Judgement - what really that anger is, I wouldn't know, but what we do know, is that nothing is comparable unto Him.

Anger is a human(mammalian) emotion, mercy is a human concept with roots in behaviour among social animals. Other inteligent animals show the basics of mercy(Bonobo chimps a good example).

If Allah (swt) Himself says something about Himself in the Qur'an, then it is so. So it is not blasphemous. But if I add something new, something that Allah (swt) Himself never said or revealed to His Prophet (saws) (as recorded then in the Qur'an and the Hadith), then it could be blasphemous.

Which is OK if you're a Muslim. Makes little or no sense or impact on a Buddhist or Christian.

And you should be a sign to yourself that God exist, surely you did not create yourself and neither did your parents and their parents, ...

..or a long line of mutative DNA that over billions of years and billions of adaptations ended up here(that's not to say we're the be all and end all either, evolution, extinction carries on). Plus we may sooner than you think be able to actually create universes ourselves. The mathematics is getting there, the practicalities may one day be overcome(building singularities not being something one lashes up on the back of a ciggie packet). Maybe we could extend the Gaia principle to the entire universe ie that it's a "living" entity(maybe even God itself, pantheism and all that) and just maybe intelligent life may turn out to be the reproductive organs of universes(I'll go off and lie down now).

See, you yourself answered that there must be some higher force or intelligence that created/set up these laws, which are so beautiful, aren't they?

Nope. It could equally be that there are many universes that exist with this one being the only one capable of generating laws that gave rise to life. Google the anthropic principle.

Now something kicked off that big bang, right?

Doesn;t have to be God though. It could be according to coliding brane theory that two universes exist very close to each other and over time collapse back towards each other creating a succession of "big bangs". The universe(s) may "always" have existed. The human concept of birth and death can limit our perception of eternity. To us everything we see seems to require a start, but "before" the big bang time as we know it from our 4 dimensional viewpoint didn't even exist.

A perfect order in the universe was the consequence of the big bang. Now how strange that is? Blow your house with a bomb or your car and I think you and I know what kinda mess you will end up with.

The big bang wasn't an explosion in the sense you think of it. It was a rapid expansion from a singularity. Whole different thing. In any case the bomb that causes the mess only rearranges the house/car in a human sense it doesn't destroy it so the comparison is useless.

But this universe is in a perfect order, is it not? With all its laws, etc.

Yes and no. the laws that exist are wobbly in places.

So think for you have no excuses, you got your brains, same as me, as your gift. Now use them and think a bit more about this creation.

I do, I have, and haven't found the hand of the particular all too human God of some. I'm not ruling out the possibility of a God at all, but I suspect if God exists it's a very different concept than what many believe.

And BTW, who do you think fixed these laws in the universe? They surely didn't fix themselves and surely all of this didn't come by a chance - universe is not a casino.

Some of the laws aren't fixed for a start. Indeed the universe is a casino, once you know the rules and the variables you can predict the behaviour(up to a point the quantum end of things gets a bit weird). You don't need a who really. Theoretically a God could have started the universe and let it go on it's way. He could have built the hill and the ball and pushed it to let it go on it's merry way. It doesn't mean he engages with the ball after that.

Zombrex

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Also, you think "God's emotions are changing" - with this you are attributing something to God which might be completely incorrect.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

God is the Most Merciful.
God will get angry with nonbelievers on the Day of Judgement

Once again ladies and gentlemen, the great Judeo/Christian/Islamic paradox

On the one hand we have a God who experiences a range of emotions as we do.

On the other hand we have a God that is completely beyond us, a being of perfect morality and knows everything that has is and will happening.

These two conflicting concepts are not compatable with each other. You cannot have a being of perfect morality and constant state, who also displays the weaker human emotions and even changes his emotional state.

They describe two different concepts of what a god is, and as such they can't both be right.

If God can get angry then something triggers this anger, something God has obviously not been previously aware off, and something that ultimately has a higher control of God than He himself does.

Think of it this way, you claim God will get angry at the unbelievers at the time of judgement. That means, and this is the important bit so pay attention, I can make God angry by continuing to be an unbeliever until I meet Him. I can effect the state of a god through my actions.

That, as I'm sure you will agree, should not be possible if He is a perfect being. How can I, a lowly mortal, effect the state of a god. God already knows if I will or will not be a believer when I face Him. He knew from the second of creation.

So it is nonsensical to claim, as either you or the Qu'ran do, that God will become angry when the non-believers are presented in front of him.

It is this paradox that is found in all monothiest western religions, found in the Bible and Qu'ran, a paradox that few seem to even apprecate let alone have theories of how to resolve it.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

And you should be a sign to yourself that God exist, surely you did not create yourself and neither did your parents and their parents, ...

Actually my parents did create me, as one of my dads cells biologically fused with one of my mothers cells and started multiplying. Eventually my brain and nervous system developed, which gave rise to my higher though systems, which is what I would consider "me"

T-1111111111111 wrote:

See, you yourself answered that there must be some higher force or intelligence that created/set up these laws, which are so beautiful, aren't they?

No I said that if one wished to claim that the universe was created by intelligence then that claim should be in relation to the fundamental laws of the universe, as all other systems develop from them. Claiming that going to the toliet is a "law" of the the universe is rather silly.

It is perfectly possible to think that an intelligence must have designed these laws, but there is no evidence either way as we are unable to view "outside" this universe or multiverse ("outside" might be the wrong way to think about it, since the universe is finite and infinite at the same time)

I personally see no reason to believe that an intelligence must have greated the universe, and even less reason to think that that intellgience should be worshiped as a god if it does exist.

But I will agree with you, the universe is lovely.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Now something kicked off that big bang, right?

Well "kicked off" might be the wrong concept here, since causality (cause and effect) has little meaning when time doesn't exist.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

A perfect order in the universe was the consequence of the big bang.

The order in the universe was the consequence of the big bang. I can't say it is perfect or imperfect since I don't have any other universes or multiverses to compare our universe to.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Now how strange that is?

Not really, since any universe that was not stable would disappear in an instant. For all we know the universe had appeared, collapsed and reappeared billions upon billions of times, with slight changes each time, until the conditions were just right for it to be stable.

We are only going to notice or be aware of the one that is stable, since we are in it.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

But this universe is in a perfect order, is it not? With all its laws, etc.

It is a semi-stable order. Can't say if that is perfect or not, since I don't know how to define perfect in relation to the universe.

It does appear that the universe will expand forever eventually getting cold and dark as all the matter is used up. I suppose one could claim that that is not a perfect system, since it will not continue to function forever. But that is just speculation, we have nothing to compare the universe to

T-1111111111111 wrote:

So think for you have no excuses, you got your brains, same as me, as your gift. Now use them and think a bit more about this creation.

Er, ok ... which part should I think about?

T-1111111111111 wrote:

And BTW, who do you think fixed these laws in the universe?

I think you mean "what" fixed these laws, since there is no reason to believe a "who" did it, and even if a "who" did it that who is still a what :cool:

And I've absolutely no idea what system (or intelligence, if any) fixed the laws of the universe as they are.

Its like saying "after rolling a dice, who made you roll a six"

The "who" in that question is the very complex interactions between your hand, the dice, the air and the ground, since you (i assume) cannot choose to roll a six, only that you want to roll.

It would be impossible to pin down one element that made the dice fall on six, since it was all the different elements working together that cause that particular out come. Such a system would be very complex to model, and we know the basic rules of the system.

You could also replace the "who" (ie you) with an "what" (automatic dice throwing machine) and still arise with a six.

If I came across a dice with six showing on the floor would I know if a person threw that on purpose using an intelligent thought, or if the dice had simply been kicked or knocked on the floor. From the six alone you would have no idea either way.

We know nothing about the state of nature before the big bang, before time energy and matter existed. We don't know if the six (ie the state of the universe) was rolled or if it just fell, and we don't know what made it fall on six rather than one, two, three, four or five (ie other possible states). We don't even know how many other sides of the dice there are.

We just know that it is at the moment on six (ie the current laws of the universe)

T-1111111111111 wrote:

universe is not a casino.

Ummm ... should have read that part before I spend a hour on my dice methephor

Nature before the universe might have been a casino, I'm not sure how anyone could tell either way.

After all, casinos exist inside this universe, so all the elements of probability, chaos theory and statistics exist within this universe. If they didn't we wouldn't know what a casino was to start with

ScumLord

T-1111111111111 wrote:

No, He does not need us, He never did need us, He never will need us.
He is the Majestic.

He also does not need our worship and He never needed it nor will He ever need it, but we do need it, we do benefit from it.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

God will get angry with nonbelievers on the Day of Judgement -

Why if he doesn't care if we worship him or not, it sounds like he couldn't give a fig and why would such an all powerful being be so upset by insignificant little things like us not worshiping him?

UU

Hmmm......is it me or do many religious people get really fustrated whilst debating? It seems to me that they are chasing their own tails most of the time, and getting tangled up in a big web of history and religious stuff! Now, that explains why I have been suffering from migranes lately - religion! The topic that in excess is guaranteed to cause headaches or get your soul back! Hehe! I really prefer something a bit more simple like just living a good life. That belief cuts it for me and I can't argue with that as it is featured in almost every religion. So, em, good luck in your talking about Allah, and Jesus and Bible and Qur'an and headaching things......

IT Loser

"Through Him, With Him, In Him" {Trinitarian doxology}


Nobody ever said, "For Him"

God is in this with us.


Note:

Doxology is a small addendum used in Judae-Christian sermon, and is inserted at the end of Hymnns and Psalms.