When is a flat a flat and a sharp a sharp

sailorfoley

Hey all,

as the title says,I'm wondering when is a flat note a flat note and when is a sharp note a sharp note? The reason i am wondering this is, from a guitar point of view, i know that e.g. A# is also Bb but to me its always A#. Does anyone else view it this way?

I was looking up some theory on the web and on a circle of fifths pattern the fifths towards the end e.g. Db, Ab, Eb, are named as flats - why are they not sharps? Is there a technical reason for this?

Thanks.

JaneHudson

It might be depending on what key the music you are playing is in. You would have a particular scale where certain notes are sharpened or flattened and just use those names.
That's my guess anyway.

Jane.

Rustar

It relates to the major scale, and the rule is 'keep it simple'.

In order to keep the intervals of the major scale (or any scale) intact, and a full note name between each note of the scale, you have to start using things like double sharps, or flats of notes with no black key to the left of them.

Bb/A# is a great example....
major intervals: 1 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2
Flat key: Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
Sharp key: A# B# C## D# E# F## G## A#

Notice how in A# we immediately run into trouble with notes that don't really exist (B#, E#) and double sharps all over the place.

Now you know why you never see the key of A# on those sites.

Use whatever requires the least amount of scribbly doo-dads on your staff paper.

Giblet

I wouldn't worry about it too much when it comes to playing unless you are reading or writing sheet music.

david

Ususally when you play a scale which contains maybe an A natural and an A# you call the A# Bb to avoid confusion eg. G A B C D E F# G instead of G A B C D E Gb G. Thats my take on it, its no big deal really

crosstownk

As posted before - its no big deal - the resulting note is still the same. Its more to do with convention for written music. Take the key of E flat - Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb - If at some point in the piece there is an 'accidental' note i.e. a note not in the major scale of the key, lets say Gb/F#. The note is the same, but it will always be written as Gb and not F#. The reverse applies in a 'sharp' key - accidentals will always be written as sharps. Essentially, the sharp symbol should not appear in a flat key and vice versa. That said, I see it in quite a few written scores.

Anyway, it doesn't matter - whats important is that you understand it and can play it correctly. Anyone listening won't know or care whether or not you perceive the note to be flat or sharp!!

-=al=-

I jus accociate it with keys/modes or if somethings technical and its jsut easier to call the note flat, but genreally i usualy stick with sharps

^^ what they said

BossArky

If the key is X# or Xb, then the notes will be noted as sharps or flats respectively.

Undergod

Well strictly speaking from a classical point of view, Ab and G# are slightly different notes, but for practical purposes they're the same.

crosstownk

Undergod wrote:

Well strictly speaking from a classical point of view, Ab and G# are slightly different notes, but for practical purposes they're the same.

Explain! They are the same key on a piano - which, I'm sure is what you mean by 'practical purposes'. Both Ab and Gsharp are the same frequency. What do you meann by different - I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested to know.

dannyd20

heh, reminded me of an old joke -

what do you get if you drop a piano down a mineshaft? .......................

A flat minor :eek:

BossArky

dannyd20 wrote:

heh, reminded me of an old joke -

what do you get if you drop a piano down a mineshaft? .......................

A flat minor :eek:

!
hahah.

franzoni

i play electric guitar and am an 'ear' player not much up on the theory end of things,the way i look at it is on the way up the neck their sharps and on the way down their flats except for Bb.....:)

pbsuxok1znja4r

Here is the musical alphabet:
c d e f g a b

Here are the notes in key/scale of say, for example C minor:
c d eb f g ab b


This naming nuance is because when you take the plain old musical alphabet, all-natural, then A is always the "6th" note after "c" (when c is the root). So in terms of naming you should keep the 6th note of a C scale as A, always, even if you have to make it A quadruple sharp or something crazy like that. Well, I hope that makes sense.

Undergod

crosstownk wrote:

Explain! They are the same key on a piano - which, I'm sure is what you mean by 'practical purposes'. Both Ab and Gsharp are the same frequency. What do you meann by different - I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested to know.

I've had this discussion with nearly every music teacher I had, and I took some convincing.
Yes, they are the same key on the piano, but originally in music and on instruments like the violin they are played in slightly different places, and hence are slightly different frequencies. So as I said 'strictly speaking', they are different notes, but can pretty much be treated as identical.

Excuse the slow reply...

crosstownk

Undergod wrote:

I've had this discussion with nearly every music teacher I had, and I took some convincing.
Yes, they are the same key on the piano, but originally in music and on instruments like the violin they are played in slightly different places, and hence are slightly different frequencies. So as I said 'strictly speaking', they are different notes, but can pretty much be treated as identical.

Excuse the slow reply...

That's quite interesting. Something I've never heard before. Every day is a school day. But, in a chromatic scale of equal temperament there are only 12 notes. If a sharp is different (slightly as you say) to a flat then why are there not 18 notes? Which is what your reply suggests. Sorry, I'm not trying to be agumentative here, but this interests me.

stevejazzx

Undergod wrote:

I've had this discussion with nearly every music teacher I had, and I took some convincing.
Yes, they are the same key on the piano, but originally in music and on instruments like the violin they are played in slightly different places, and hence are slightly different frequencies. So as I said 'strictly speaking', they are different notes, but can pretty much be treated as identical.

Excuse the slow reply...

I have been studying music for 12 years and have never come across this.
Can you post a link, otherwise I can only imagine that you mean flats and sparp have different descriptive menaings in the context of say a composers mind. ab and gsharp are the smae notes.

Undergod

That's okay, you know you really understand swmoething when you can explain it...

I'm not sure that I can. I think that it's not actually equal temperament, just like the way each different key is considered to have different moods associated with it. There are tiny differences in temperament.

stevejazzx wrote:

I have been studying music for 12 years and have never come across this.
Can you post a link, otherwise I can only imagine that you mean flats and sparp have different descriptive menaings in the context of say a composers mind. ab and gsharp are the smae notes.

I'm just repeating what my teachers have told me.

crosstownk

Undergod wrote:

There are tiny differences in temperament.

If there are tiny differences in temperament, then they can't be played on most equal temperament instruments. Yes, if you bend a guitar up, or have fretless instrument - bass, violin, cello even a trombone. But with a piano, trumpet, clarinet, oboe etc etc then you are stuck with the equal temperament scales. So the best acheivable note would be one that is detuned in relation to the rest of the orchestra/band - and only with certain instruments. Undoubtedly, this can be effective in some pieces.

I do think I know what you mean about 'mood'. This is very important and I do feel that flat keys represent a more sombre, melancholic mood where as sharp keys tend to be brighter. Not always the case but it does follow that pattern in most cases, imo.

Undergod

That's kind of the idea, as I understand it.