Ritual tools

skateing dragon

This post was moved with the thread to allow debate on the topic of ritual tools.

Thaedydal.

scorplett

[edit]Just to clean up this post since the thread way duplicated and split to allow debate...With regard to the use and purchase of ritual tools [/edit]
There are very little in the way of shops in the dublin area. The two main one would be the yellow brick road on the quays and also the house of astrology on parliment street. Candles can be bought anywhere and I would suggest any pound shop, aldi and lidl are quite good too. Cauldrons are a raretity but rarley needed or used and why pay through the nose when a kitchen pot will do nicley. Athames are ritual items and are usually given as a gift at initiation, your finger is the best thing to use most of the time anyhow, or to begin with a kitchen knife would be what many use.
If you want to have things that are for ritual purpose only, I would suggest buying a cereal bowl instead of a cauldron etc, going out into a wooded area to find a twig as a wand etc etc. Purchased paraphanailia is often just that, paraphanailia. More often than not it is really not needed at all, especially outside of coven practice.

joseph dawton

I agree. I use my fingers and my mind for most work. I have an old kitchen knife that I converted into an athame. I got an old skillet pot from a junk shop eventually. I've found or made nearly everything I use and I think these items are more useful because they are personal and contain my own creativity and energy rather than being provided 'ready to use'. As well as being 'better', it saves money and makes you think more about what for and why you want these items if you have to put in a bit of effort.

http://www.electricpublications.com

Adam Blavatsky

Athames are ritual items and are usually given as a gift at initiation,

Really, this is news to me, I always thought that the athame was the primary witches tool and therefore intensely personal and constructed or acquired after a lot of careful thought and deliberation.

I know that during initiation the neophyte is presented with the athame along with the rest of the working tools but that I'm sure you'll agree is not quite the same thing.

AB

Nevyn

Aul Pine Georges arcade off georges st is another place.

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

Really, this is news to me, I always thought that the athame was the primary witches tool and therefore intensely personal and constructed or acquired after a lot of careful thought and deliberation.

I would agree with that but different people work in slightly differing ways it could be that that is the way in which Scorplett works or has worked.

Adam Blavatsky

Thaedydal wrote:

I would agree with that but different people work in slightly differing ways it could be that that is the way in which Scorplett works or has worked.

A fair point although the exact words used by Scorplett were "Athames are ritual items and are usually given as a gift at initiation" which suggests that this is more of a general practice than a personal one.

AB

Nevyn

Scorplett wrote:

"Athames are ritual items and are usually given as a gift at initiation"

I don't think Scorplett expects her opinion to be considered cannon for the entire world and she did say usually.

Adam Blavatsky

Thaedydal wrote:

"I don't think Scorplett expects her opinion to be considered cannon for the entire world and she did say usually"


I think the word your looking for is "canon" not "cannon" and I'm not entirely sure what you mean, would you care to elaborate?

AB

Nevyn

Opps Yes, I did did mean canon there goes that pesky dyslexia of mine again.
Elaborate on what exactly ?

joseph dawton

Aw for Pete's sake lets not squabble over minutae. Some time back a friend of mine did a course with Barbara Lee: she asked about all the tools witches used and asked which was most important.

Of course the answer is your own mind and heart, the tools are pretty irrelevant - without the mastery of oneself and the ability to project our intentions into these tools they are useless.

http://www.electricpublications.com

Nevyn

It depends on the context in which you are working.
I would not go as far as saying heart and mind I would just say "me".

amazingemmet

Personally, while not following any particular path, i find the best tools to be the ones that are at hand at the time.

As jospeh has touched on its all to do with force of will, being in control of yourself with confidence and not arrogance and you will be able to produce effects.

When i first started i needed fancy rituals and tools to covince myself i was acheiving something now that i'm more experienced i don't need anything bar myself.

skateing dragon

Ok thanks for all the help

Nevyn

It depends on what you are doing and how you are working imho.
Acually I have a dislike for amassing ritual tools, I would hate to embue them with that much engery or link them to myself in such away that I would be lost with out them or feel the lack of them if I needed to do something.
They are a nice aid but I would be wary of them being a crutch.

Sapien

amazingemmet wrote:

When i first started i needed fancy rituals and tools to covince myself i was acheiving something now that i'm more experienced i don't need anything bar myself.

In my area this is what is called the "Empty-Handed Gesture" - the ability to perform potent magick without a temple space or ritual tools - anywhere, at a moments notice. It is in may ways the highest attainment in practical magick to be able to do this with reliable and significant results, the sign of an advanced magickian, and a very cool idea.

For most practitioners of magick, tools are important. It is difficult to manipulate ones state of mind without some outward trappings, especially if one is trying something new and frightening, or if one is under any pressure. While I agree that elaborate props are not necessary for simple magick, if on takes up regular magickal practice, a well cared-for, well-made and somewhat treasured set ot tools can be of great benefit. One can of course aspire to grow beyond the need for them, but there may always be certain circumstances in which it will be easier to use tools.

Athames are double edged with a black handle right?
what are the single edged white handled ones called?

Nevyn

Bolline.
A bolline is a white-handled knife used for cutting, carving or inscribing things (candles, talismans etc) during the course of a ritual or in preperation.
You don't generally cut things with your Athame.

amazingemmet

Sapien wrote:

It is difficult to manipulate ones state of mind without some outward trappings

I agree with that completely for a beginner that "setting the mood" can help you focus your mind more. Personally i came into this very young and without guidance so i had to invent most my "rituals" but eventually i just started focusing on my mind more then ritual and learnt to manipulate that and i think thats what a lot of people miss is the ritual and tools are just dressing to the state of mind. Just my thoughts on the subject

Nevyn

In a ritual magic context there are rituals that perscibe the use of certain tools made of certain woods or metals and certain colour robes and the use of certain insences to reach a certain atunement and reach places that working with such tools can help a magical practioner again acess too but they are very specifc to certain workings and for the most part not for beginers.

amazingemmet

Thaedydal wrote:

In a ritual magic context there are rituals that perscibe the use of certain tools made of certain woods or metals and certain colour robes and the use of certain insences to reach a certain atunement

My thoughts on it are the ritual and tools are just to reach the right attunement but it can be reached other ways. I can't really comment on the ritual magic bit as its outside my scope< but i do agree that there's a lot of things beginners shouldn't be doing.

scorplett

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

Athames are ritual items and are usually given as a gift at initiation,

Really, this is news to me, I always thought that the athame was the primary witches tool and therefore intensely personal and constructed or acquired after a lot of careful thought and deliberation.

I know that during initiation the neophyte is presented with the athame along with the rest of the working tools but that I'm sure you'll agree is not quite the same thing.

AB

Firstley it is not a neophyte that is presented with the tools. The order of the ritual is quite specific in that the initiation is given and the neophyte pronounced as priestess and witch and then in that capacity are then correctly prepared to be presented with the tools, then with the knowledge of the tools having just been given, then they are prepare to be presented to the mighty ones and then to the guardians of the quarters.

So to be strictly correct about it yes it should be the case as the very first time anyone should have the opportunity to hold a magical tool is at the end of their initiation. Before this point they are in training.
The Athame in particuluar is the conserve of the ritual magician and witch and is not used in familial traditions in the same context. Also for a tool to be a tool in this context it must be properly consecrated and the consecration of such a tool requires a priest and priestess therefore only truly being an athame if given in a coven because before consecration it is mearley a knife. Though you may dedicate it as your ritual knife it is not an athame. There is no proper etymological reference in any European language for the use of the word before gardner wrote of it. Therefore outside of traditions hiving from gardner himself there is no real context for an athame as we know it.

Secondly, it is the witches primary 'weapon' but that does not mean it is her primary tool. That is something only an individual witch can claim as each individuals pracitces are different, even within strict coven teachings every individual would have more of a personal calling to a particuluar mode of working and hence each will have a different primary working tool. For example mine is my boleen and my mortar and pestle as herbal practices are my personal forte.
An athame is after all a weapon and you should treat it as such even in ritual terms. It is an instrument of subjagation and controll, it can also be very dangerous to certain elementals that would not have been at work in the UK at the time the gardinarian book of shadows came about and yes gardinarian is relevant here as the aspects of the gard BOS are largley unchanged in the Alexandrian BOS.

Gardinarian BOS available at sacred texts.com http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/index.htm] :
"First the Magic Sword. With this, as with the Athame, thou canst form all Magic Circles, dominate, subdue, and punish all rebellious Spirits and Demons, and even persuade the Angels and Geniuses. With this in your hand you are the ruler of the Circle.
Next I present the Athame. This is the true Witch's weapon and has all the powers of the Magic Sword...

It would be a very rare thing that anyone would have to dominate, subdue and punish rebellious spirits and deamons and that said just because you have an athame (or what you call an athame) does not mean you can do this. And as I said before, the athame is a weapon and most would agree that in every day life it is not everyone who would have want or need for a weapon. The other aspect of it, that of casting all form of circle. Most circles that anyone need cast can be done with finger or wand. Therefore it should not be something someone would need untill after such time as their training be at a certain level (ie properly prepared for initiation or similar)

gardinarian BOS:
"There are no magical supply shops, so unless you are lucky enough to be given or sold tools, a poor witch must extemporize. But when made you should be able to borrow or obtain an Athame. So having made your circle, erect an altar. Any small table or chest will do. There must be fire on it (a candle will suffice) and your book. For good results incense is best if you can get it, but coals in a chafing dish burning sweet-smelling herbs will do. A cup if you would have cakes and wine, and a platter with the signs drawn into the same in ink, showing a pentacle. A scourge is easily made (note, the scourge has eight tails and five knots in each tail). Get a white-hilted knife and a wand (a sword is not necessary). Cut the marks with Athame. Purify everything, then consecrate your tools in proper form and ever be properly prepared. But ever remember, magical operations are useless unless the mind can be brought to the proper attitude, keyed to the utmost pitch. Affirmations must be made clearly, and the mind should be inflamed with desire. With this frenzy of will, you may do as much with simple tools as with the most complete set. But good and especially ancient tools have their own aura. They do help to bring about that reverential spirit, the desire to learn and develop your powers. For this reason witches ever try to obtain tools from sorcerers, who, being skilled men, make good tools and consecrate them well, giving them mighty power. But a great witch's tools also gain much power; and you should ever strive to make any tools you manufacture of the finest materials you can obtain, to the end that they may absorb your power the more easily. And of course if you may inherit or obtain another witch's tools, power will flow from them. It is an old belief that the best substances for making tools are those that have once had life in them, as opposed to artificial substances. Thus wood or ivory is better for a wand than metal, which is more appropriate for knives or swords. Virgin parchment is better than manufactured paper for talismans, etc. And things which have been made by hand are good, because there is life in them.

The second sentance of the above quote begins with "But when made you should be able to borrow or obtain an Athame." This is meaning that when you are made a witch by initiation you can borrow or obtain an athame. This is not my personal interpretation but rather liniaged teachings.
It is often done that the dedicant or neophyte construct their tools as part of their training. Receiving instruction not only in how they would be properly made but also in how they are properly used and what they mean.
Before the publication of the books of shadows however part formed they may be, magical tools such as the athame were oathbound knowledge of a truly esoteric nature and purpose. This is no longer the case and such things that were once the reserve of the initiated magus are now public domain and have been adapted and cloned and hybridised. The fact that everyone from your self dedicated teen witch to your wiccan high priestess and elder have an athame and that such questions should come about as have done on this list most obviously shows that an athame is no longer what is used to be, at least to some.
To clarify again, none of what I have posted is oath-bound material, which for me raises the question of where along the line did things get so skewed???

skateing dragon

Okay i didnt mean Athames sepcifically. That was just an example to explain what i meant i really just meant stuff for my alter and for spells etc.

Adam Blavatsky

Scorplett, thank you for your lengthy if not somewhat verbose response to my earlier post.

Strictly speaking the Neophyte has reached the point within the rite that they have been duly consecrated priest(ess) and witch by the time the tools are presented I'll give you that one.

So if as you suggest the aforementioned tool or weapon if you prefer, starts the initiation rite as a knife and finishes as an athame, why didn't you say that the athame is usually created or consecrated for its magical purpose during initiation. Why did you instead say that the athame was usually given as a gift during initiation, a statement which could be construed as meaning something apart from what you were apparently trying to say.

Incidentally I think you got your point across sufficiently without having to quote chunks of the Public domain version of the Gardnerian BoS, although it does provoke me to ask the question is there any place for dogma within an experiential spiritual path?

AB

scorplett

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

Scorplett, thank you for your lengthy if not somewhat verbose response to my earlier post.

I would prefer to have thought of it as thorough rather than verbose. You must remember that many using these forums (including perhaps the original poster) would not be as knowledgeable as someone who would choose such a weighted occult user name

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

So if as you suggest the aforementioned tool or weapon if you prefer, starts the initiation rite as a knife and finishes as an athame, why didn't you say that the athame is usually created or consecrated for its magical purpose during initiation. Why did you instead say that the athame was usually given as a gift during initiation, a statement which could be construed as meaning something apart from what you were apparently trying to say.

I did not phrase things in that way because that is not what I meant. In my experience the consecration of the tools does not take place in the initiation rite. The gifting is often done at cakes and ale or after the ceremony entirely. The ritual element of the presentation of tools takes place during initiation and those tools presented (outside of that of the wand perhaps) are specifically rooted in ceremonial magic and belong to a ceremonial magician. The reason for mentioning initiation rites was not to say when a knife becomes an athame but rather when the holder of a knife earns rite to call it and use it as an athame.
Also, many of the tools used in presentation are those of the coven or the HP or HP’s and not those of the initiate. The only one that I have always seen to be the possessions of the initiate are the chords. It was also phrased as a gift considering that on occasion the item in question might have been previously owned and passed downline. Such items can never be purchased and could only ever be a gift. So it seems that I was not verbose enough as you have misinterpreted what I was trying to say.

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

Incidentally I think you got your point across sufficiently without having to quote chunks of the Public domain version of the Gardnerian BoS, although it does provoke me to ask the question is there any place for dogma within an experiential spiritual path?

Again, in consideration for those who may not have as great a knowledge as others and also in consideration for comments made previously by other posters in other threads within this forum, it is sometimes inappropriate to merely post links as not everyone will follow the links or in fact read them correctly. Aside from that it is poor construction of an argument to not back up statments or references where appropriate.
I do believe there is an over abundance of dogma in day to day practice. There is place for it, so long as it is questioned and hence understood and that the individual can choose to accept it as such or reject it. But that is an entirely different subject. If you wish to open a thread to that effect, please do as I for one would be an interested and active participant in such a debate.

Adam Blavatsky

OK Scorplett, from the top.

Scorplett wrote:

"You must remember that many using these forums (including perhaps the original poster) would not be as knowledgeable as someone who would choose such a weighted occult user name"

So you've heard of Madame Blavatsky, good for you...

Scorplett wrote:

"In my experience the consecration of the tools does not take place in the initiation rite. The gifting is often done at cakes and ale or after the ceremony entirely"

If it is only in your experience then it is not rule of thumb, I know a ot of people that think that the idea of gift-giving during or around an initiation rite to be wholly inappropriate

Scorplett wrote:

"The ritual element of the presentation of tools takes place during initiation and those tools presented (outside of that of the wand perhaps) are specifically rooted in ceremonial magic and belong to a ceremonial magician. The reason for mentioning initiation rites was not to say when a knife becomes an athame but rather when the holder of a knife earns rite to call it and use it as an athame"

I think you need to read a bit more about "Ceremonial Magic" and maybe a little bit about "Fremasonry" too.

Scorplett wrote:

"Also, many of the tools used in presentation are those of the coven or the HP or HP’s and not those of the initiate. The only one that I have always seen to be the possessions of the initiate are the chords. It was also phrased as a gift considering that on occasion the item in question might have been previously owned and passed downline. Such items can never be purchased and could only ever be a gift. So it seems that I was not verbose enough as you have misinterpreted what I was trying to say"

This is not the case, if the candidate did not have his or her own working tools, generally speaking the coven tools would be used not those of HP or HPS, as regards magical apparel being passed downline, the use of second hand magical tools is a whole seperate discussion and not one I want to get into at this time.

Scorplett wrote:

"Again, in consideration for those who may not have as great a knowledge as others and also in consideration for comments made previously by other posters in other threads within this forum, it is sometimes inappropriate to merely post links as not everyone will follow the links or in fact read them correctly. Aside from that it is poor construction of an argument to not back up statments or references where appropriate"

It does make sound academic sense to back up your argument with appropriate references your absolutely right, but what about the quality of those references, is it academically sound to quote an incomplete document off of the internet, from a the middle of the last century that isn't a primary reference or even secondary reference.The Gardnerian BoS within the public domain is nothing more than part of the magical journal of one man, it may have seeds of wisdom within it, but I don't think it was ever meant to be held up and quoted like a bible.

The BoS was only meant as guidance and a starting point for what Gardner viewed as an organic earth based matrifocal fertility religion. Gerald Gardner may have been the father of the neo-pagan revival and possibly a key player in the awaking of the desire for the western mystery tradition, but he was certainly no serious academic. and I can say that unhessitantly as long term student of his works and as an elder of his tradition.

On the subject of books, I have always thought of a well written book as being a bit like a sharp knife cutting its way through ignorance. Some people unfortunately seem to think of a good book as a heavy wooden club to beat people over the head with.

I shall not be passing this way again, I wish you all Hail, Farewell and good luck on wherever your path takes you.

Adam

Talliesin

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

Incidentally I think you got your point across sufficiently without having to quote chunks of the Public domain version of the Gardnerian BoS, although it does provoke me to ask the question is there any place for dogma within an experiential spiritual path?

What in that says you have to believe anything in particular?

Everything quoted was about what Gardnerian Witches do (or did, since for one thing "There are no magical supply shops" is no longer entirely true). It's not orthodoxy (dogma), it's orthopraxy (tradition).

Nevyn

Is an Athame a black handled knife used for magical ritual purpose ? Yes
Is a black handled knife used for magical ritual purpose an Athame ? not nessarily.

This to me is like wiccans are witches, not all witches are wiccans or even pagan. With the publishing of Gardener's books correctly,
as in his 4 acknowledged books two fiction two non fiction and the infamous books of shadows
(cos lets face it there are some many copies out there few people will ever know what is right or real at this stage)
new words were introduced to the pubic who read these book and subsequent books written after
from those that are taken seriously to those that are not all of these have promoted certain terms and certain words
so that we have come to a stage that for most people wiccan=witch and all black handled knife used for magical ritual purposes=Athames.

This I honestly think to be a right pain in the rear end.

There are many magical practices that use a black handled knife and indeed most of the ritual tools that are now
generally associated with what is seen in the public view of wicca which while they have some things in common with are very differnt from wicca.

What ever type of magical practionor someone is aspiring to be tools can be very much a part of that path.
Having a hammer, a saw a chisel and a plane does not make you a carpenter,
knowing how to use and them and when and how and to care for your tools
certainly makes you a wood worker but you have to learn by using them.
Knowing what tool is best is something that also comes from experience,
for what you have in your tool box is exactly what other people or those who have wirtten books will have.

As with any endeavour, hobby or craft rushing off and buying a full set of what ever is usually not the way to go, aquiring or making what you need as you proceed makes more sense that way you get to know each tool as you come to them and will not over whelm yourself with shiney things and get distracted.

The skills we learn with tools of what ever type we take with use even when we don't have those tools or access to tools like them.

Ideally a wire strippers and screwdriver are used to change a plug but I have manged it quite well with a nail clipers once I knew what I was doing.

Tools change and evolve, I think they are ment to and so are the use of them.

Books can be tools as well but they should make you question and think and ponder and work out if what is mentioned in them is true for you on your path.
Books may be a map of sorts but they are of some one elses journey and while you may try to walk the same path you can never cross the same river twice or stand on the exact same beach.

scorplett

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

If it is only in your experience then it is not rule of thumb, I know a ot of people that think that the idea of gift-giving during or around an initiation rite to be wholly inappropriate

That may be true where you are from but here in Ireland it is often not the case. I say often because it would obviousley not be the case that any one individual would ever know the intimate details of every coven's practices, even I myself a priestess for a decade cannot say any such thing even of ones own up/down line. Therefore it is something of a dead argument to argue one way or the other on such a point but far more productive to mention differences and explain ones thoughts behind them.

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

I think you need to read a bit more about "Ceremonial Magic" and maybe a little bit about "Fremasonry" too.

you are absaloutly right and that is something i have recognised for a long time and continue my studies as they are truly never ending. I have never purported to be of knowledge of those things and dont see the point of your comment in the context of this thread.

adam blavatsky wrote:

This is not the case, if the candidate did not have his or her own working tools, generally speaking the coven tools would be used not those of HP or HPS, as regards magical apparel being passed downline, the use of second hand magical tools is a whole seperate discussion and not one I want to get into at this time.

In practical terms more often than not the coven tools are those of the Hp and or Hps. Often they being one and the same thing. I do believe that the passing of tools downline is an appropriate discussion and true there are certain precautions needed to ensure a good energy exchange, the passing downline of tools is a very positive practice, although that may have different connotations if your coven is further downline than others etc or if the original owner is still living or practicing etc. I do hope that you may consider making future posts on this topic as like other topics that have arisen from this thread I would look forward to participating in them.

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

It does make sound academic sense to back up your argument with appropriate references your absolutely right, but what about the quality of those references, is it academically sound to quote an incomplete document off of the internet, from a the middle of the last century that isn't a primary reference or even secondary reference.

Would you rather I quoted oath bound material and, appropriate enough to the thread, have my tools turn against me. I think not. It happens to be fact that the most apprpriate public domain information available is that of the gardenarian BOS (even though that is not strictly my tradition it remains appropriate). I would be unwilling to quote anyting else for either copyright reasons or reasons of oath and think it unfair and unwise for you to make such comments considering you would be more than aware of the reasons that my source of quote was chosen.

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

The Gardnerian BoS within the public domain is nothing more than part of the magical journal of one man, it may have seeds of wisdom within it, but I don't think it was ever meant to be held up and quoted like a bible.

I totally agree and infact would go further than that and say the very same thing of the actual gardinarian and alexandrian books of shadows. But as mentioned above much of what we may want to talk about is oathbound.

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

The BoS was only meant as guidance and a starting point for what Gardner viewed as an organic earth based matrifocal fertility religion. Gerald Gardner may have been the father of the neo-pagan revival and possibly a key player in the awaking of the desire for the western mystery tradition, but he was certainly no serious academic. and I can say that unhessitantly as long term student of his works and as an elder of his tradition.I shall not be passing this way again, I wish you all Hail, Farewell and good luck on wherever your path takes you.

Again I totally agree, however this thread is not about gardner and his tradition. As explained above I have found it nescessary to use what is public domain and easily accessable and most relevant. If indeed you are an elder of that tradition you should more than anyone understand these things. In that capacity you could lend much insight and wisdom to this forum as we are only blessed with one elder of your tradition in this country and he has difficulty with slow dialup due to a remote location and as such can not easily contribute. The rest of us for the majority are alexandrian and eclectic so please continue to contribute your unique perspective.

Talliesin

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

It does make sound academic sense to back up your argument with appropriate references your absolutely right,

No, it demonstrates that she isn't merely writing off the top of her head. Frankly as a moderator of this forum I'm pleased to see someone doing so. This thread is far from being an academic investigation, but I do like to see people making points and backing them up as best they can, and don't see much sense in someone criticising them for doing so.

Adam Blavatsky wrote:

but what about the quality of those references, is it academically sound to quote an incomplete document off of the internet, from a the middle of the last century that isn't a primary reference or even secondary reference.The Gardnerian BoS within the public domain is nothing more than part of the magical journal of one man, it may have seeds of wisdom within it, but I don't think it was ever meant to be held up and quoted like a bible.

Academically, it makes sense to look at every document you can get your hands on, as long as doing so includes acknowledging just what that document is. scorplett's ommission of such information is fine here though since she is writing a forum post, not an academic monogram.

The only clearly superior documents she could have made the same points with are documents she is oathbound not to publish. Doing that wouldn't make her point anyway, since I'd delete the post.