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Penalty points .. why aren't they sent by registered post?

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  • 20-08-2006 4:41pm
    #1
    seatleon2000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭


    Why aren't penalty point notices sent by registered post.

    The letter says you must reply or face a day in court .. a bigger fine and extra points on your licence..

    But surely all you have to say is "you never recieved it"

    :confused:


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    #2
    Bob the Builder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,919 ✭✭✭Bob the Builder


    There was also a very-funny case where a man got away scot-free with his notice of points. It was in english and he was "irish-speaking"...

    I agree, there must have been a problem with the post office ;)


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    #3
    dermot_sheehan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭dermot_sheehan


    s. 11(15) of the Road Traffic Act 2002 presumes a person received the notice.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA12Y2002S11.html

    s. 11(11) presumes that if no reply is received the registered owner was driving the vehicle.

    Legal presumptions which place the evidential burden on the accused are constitutional (O'Leary v. AG). for example s. 15 of the misuse of drugs act presumes dealing if a certain quantity of drugs are found on a person.
    similarly in hardy v. ireland a presumption that explosives found on a person were not for a lawful purpose were upheld.


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    #4
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    How would someone prove that they did not receive the notice. An post are not perfect and it could actually get lost and therefore not delivered.


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    #5
    WizZard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,762 ✭✭✭WizZard


    gabhain7 wrote:
    Legal presumptions which place the evidential burden on the accused are constitutional (O'Leary v. AG). for example s. 15 of the misuse of drugs act presumes dealing if a certain quantity of drugs are found on a person.
    similarly in hardy v. ireland a presumption that explosives found on a person were not for a lawful purpose were upheld.
    But they are both cases where there is interaction with the accused personally. In the case of penalty points the letter may be the only interaction with the accused...


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    #6
    seatleon2000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭seatleon2000


    Are you saying that you would have to prove that you didn't recieve it.

    How on earth would you do that ? :confused:


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    #7
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    There is a district court judge that asks people if they have a "register of post". Most normal people wouldn't so that excuse won't fly with him.


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    #8
    seatleon2000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭seatleon2000


    Bond-007 wrote:
    There is a district court judge that asks people if they have a "register of post". Most normal people wouldn't so that excuse won't fly with him.

    Are you saying you would have to keep a log of all mail recieved .. and show the "absense" of a record of the letter regarding penalty points ?


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    #9
    YoYOPowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭YoYOPowder


    The system is massively flawed, but are you surprised at that?
    I sold a car about 8 months ago and recently received a fixed penalty notice for speeding. The usual 2 points yah de yah. Now I gave the change of ownership to the buyer (who was actually reselling it to a random punter), because I knew him, so I thought he never sent it in. So I rang Shannon to see if the car was in my name, and low and behold it was changed to the new buyer at the time of sale.
    Now on the fixed charge notice it gives you a phone number. So I rang it and got through to the Gardai. They explained in no uncertain terms that they use a different database and I must prove I wasn't driving the car. I said no, I wont do that, we'll go to court, waste the taxpayers money and I'll make a show of you and of course I'll win. Because according to the only database that counts, i.e. The car ownership DB in Shannon I didn't own the car. He said not to be smart.
    The nice lady in Shannon sent me a form to state that I did not own the car, I duly sent this on to the Gardai. I asked for confirmation of receipt and that I would not get the points, needless to say I never heard from the Gardai again. Shannon and the Gardai told me that there is up to a one year discrepancy between the two databases. Guilty until proven innocent.

    BTW, there is an option to fill in who was driving the car if it wasn't you. Needless to say I didn't know the owner, and whilst I did find it out, I couldn't just put his name down, I had no contact details for him.


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    #10
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    seatleon2000 wrote:
    Are you saying you would have to keep a log of all mail recieved .. and show the "absense" of a record of the letter regarding penalty points ?
    That would be correct.


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