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Lankavatara Sutra.
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20-08-2006 1:28pm#1
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bluewolf wrote:I discovered this sutra a few days ago, and only then did I learn how important it is in the mahayana tradition. Particularly Zen.
Would anyone like to discuss it here?
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/lankavatara_sutra.htm
It's awfully long, so perhaps we could take it chapter by chapter.
General reflections on what it says, what it means, its implications and how we put it into practice. That kind of thing.
Thanks for the interesting post, Bluewolf!
I've read the first two chapters but I don't think I understand this teachings well enough to discuss them without falling into the very traps the Lankavatara Sutra is warning about. It's interesting though. (Reminds me a bit of the philosophy of Berkeley, actually.)
But I have a question about some of the concepts/expressions:
The five Dharmas, is that the same as the five precepts (not killing, stealing etc...)? And is the three Svabhavas the same as the three jewels (Buddha, Sangha, Dharma)?, and the eight Vijnanas is the eightfold path (1.Right view 2. Right intention 3. Right speech 4. Right action, etc.)?
And what is the twofold Ego-less-ness?
Regards,
M.0 -
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Asiaprod -Ok, now you can tear me apart.
I am glad you said this so I can talk about something else first. It has nothing to do with you or your posts, but something general about Buddhism and final liberation.
Liberation, Enlighenment, Nirvana, Self-realization, is something that is so far beyond language that our trying to grasp it with our minds is like trying to hug the Buddha to get it with our bodies. It just won't work.
So, what to do? And how do these teachings and sutras help us?
In Buddhism there is a very high training of the mind in logic, clarity, expression, memory, etc. At the same time, the body is trained to relax physical impulses in order to keep it still, with food being kept simple in order not to interfere with the body or with mental clarity.
This clean and clear, body and mind, present to the moment, then engages in careful and deliberate conversation and communion with a teacher, master or Buddha. In that exchange the master and the deciple engage their minds in a, what I would call, sacred dance with very careful and deliberate steps, where the master can dance closer and closer to the cliff. When the student is ready the master can go beyond the cliff and the student, if his or her devotion, love and trust is absolute (beyond the fear of death), can jump. This sacred, mental dance between a devotee and his master is what we are reading in a sutra like this. Much is conveyed between the master and the student at the time. Beyond the words we get to read there are physical, emotional, and other levels on which communication happens at the time. Even if we were fortunate enough to be in the same room, we would miss most of it.
If the master is skillful he takes the student with the help of the mind (Logic) beyond the mind (Liberation). Spending many years with a master or studying sutras intensely, many such moments happen until the student realizes himself within the liberation itself.
Now to your statement, Asiaprod. This "taking apart" is what we enjoy, and dread. If I were to point out faulty logic on your part, I would be taking your statements and conclusions apart, I would not be taking "you" apart. Since we identify very deeply with our thinking - 'our" conclusions and insights - we tend to take such "taking apart" personally.
That is the first hurdle - in your case not a big problem since your sincere inquiry and your willingness to be "taken apart" already demonstrate your lack of stubborn attachment to your own thinking, as well as your enjoyment in clarification of thought.
The second hurdle is pure logic itself. Before we can go beyond the mind, with the help of this method of buddhist inquiry, we have to become extremely clear, logical and scientific in our thinking. When we come to the very edge of what is possible with thinking, Liberation becomes a possiblity, if through our training in selflessness and our vow, there is enough love and trust. Then it is up to Grace.
The third hurdle is to become free of Liberation itself
. This stage alone can take decades.
Let's now look at what you posted -Asiaprod-The important point here is number 4. It differs from the other 3 in that it is the only one that operates from a completely unselfish perspective, that of a Bodhisattvas, as shown in the explanation followingSutra- 4. Finally, there is the Nirvana of the Buddhas.
Then there are the true Bodhisattvas who, on account of their original vows made for the sake of all beings, saying, "So long as they do not attain Nirvana, I will not attain it for myself," voluntarily keep themselves out of Nirvana.
But, if they only realized it, they are already in the Tathágata’s Nirvana for, in Noble Wisdom, all things are in Nirvana from the beginning.
This "voluntarily keeping oneself out of Nirvana" is a very "scientific" and valuable vow, since it relaxes the Bodhisattva about attaining it, so he can focus his energies and concentration on aiding others, inadvertently aiding himself. The vow, if it is genuine, puts him into a relaxed, non-competitive, unselfish, receptive and compassionate mindframe -which is the very prerequisite for Enlightenment. Enlightenment then, if and when it happens, becomes a by-product rather than a goal.
Since Enlightenment itself, naturally benefits all others all on its own, there would be nothing hurtful or neglectful to others in desiring it for oneself. But the mindframe of desiring is counterproductive to Liberation. (-unless! - the desiring can reach an absolute level where fear of all consequences - in other words, death - disappears. Not the best method for everyone.)
In your post you reveal that you put a very high value on selfless-ness and service. This makes you a very kind, compassionate and helpful person to others. Also it makes you a happier, more content and fulfilled person than selfish people. So there is no problem with this value, but in order to "go beyond, or to transcend the mind" you need to integrate absolut selfishness also. In Nirvana they are the same, so it doesn't make you a bad person. In your case, it just means that the kind, compassionate Bodhisattva Asiaprod also is a fierce, brutal, selfish, dangerous, fearless snowcat.
How to integrate our negated side? Once again, since you have been so truthful and forthcoming with your innermost experience of the snowcat, I can suggest a meditation to you.
First turn the image around. Instead of the image coming towards you, you are behind the mountain lion. As she! starts moving, you move with her until you become her. Really feel this, in your body! Your power, your joy, your freedom, the air, the space, the beauty, your ability to kill with ease and precision for your own purpose, etc.
Keep moving at a steady pace, until you, the snowcat disappear and you simply become the running. Keep going until even the running disappears and you become the wide open, clear space that you are running in. Keep up being this space until - a jump into the unknown - you become that in which the space exsists, where space, time, and all of exsistence dissolves and there is Ultimate Truth.
(from the beginning, and especially at these later stages in the meditation keep as much love and trust in your heart as you have in you. At some point you will need the courage to jump into non-existence which is only possible with total surrender (selfless-ness), an empty, present, clear and fearless mind without confusion, like the snowcat's, and the loving, trusting heart of the Bodhisatttva. (Grace protects you from this jump if it is not yet time and Grace takes you beyond, if the time is ripe).
(At this point I am always worried that some people who may read this and do not know about meditation and internal experiences could misinterpret this as some sort of message about jumping out of a window. IT IS NOT!!! It is all about the "death" of the Ego that keeps us from God, if you will. This separation from Truth, Nirvana, God, our true selves is the cause of all of our suffering. Suicide as a solution occurs to people in deepest suffering and is the right idea, but to kill the body is the wrong approach, it is a mistake the mind makes to solve the problem.)
Back to the SutraAsiaprod-This can only mean that in reality, it is foolish to perceive or seek for Nirvana as if it were some place or state that is external to where we are. Nirvana is here and now, it has always been and will always be, here and now. It is a life condition we seek to attain, once we attain it, all will be made clear. Not by any deity, guide or person with a special license, but by ourselves. We already have the understanding, our problem is in recalling it.
First, yes, "perceiving or seeking Nirvana" it is foolish, but so is love! This foolishness is better directed in serving others, that is why Buddhism and other religions that teach service are helpful. Suffering is relieved for both the helper and the one being helped.
If Nirvana is here and now, where exactly is here and now? The mind feeling very cleaver to have nailed Nirvana to "here and now". O.K., done, no more worries about Nirvana. Here and now also disappears if we look at it closely.
Yes, all will be made clear, but is Nirvana a life condition? Or even a condition? It is the truth we cannot grasp with our minds -so there is no way of "understanding" or "remembering". Yet it is an understanding and remembering of something that already is, always has been and always will be (just like you said)- there are no better words. Maybe it helps to keep in mind, at the same time that we make the above statement, that usually we understand and remember "something", where in the case of Nirvana we understand and rememeber "nothing", with this "nothing" being a pesence rather than an absense. This is not "understood" or "rememebred" with the mind, but with Nirvana itself. Nirvana realizing itself.In this perfect self-realization of Noble Wisdom the Bodhisattva realizes that for the Buddhas there is no Nirvana.
How perfect to have taken a vow to forgo Nirvana for the benefit of others, only to realize upon reaching Nirvana, that there is no Nirvana. This devine paradox is the greatest joy and the greatest fullfilment.0 -
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How perfect to have taken a vow to forgo Nirvana for the benefit of others, only to realize upon reaching Nirvana, that there is no Nirvana. This devine paradox is the greatest joy and the greatest fullfilment.
by Asiaprod-Where did this quote come from, I would like to read it.
Yours truely. You're inspiring me to tell it as it is. Thank You for that, by the way.This is not "understood" or "rememebred" with the mind, but with Nirvana itself. Nirvana realizing itself.
by Asiaprod-I feel there is too much here that you wanted to say but for some reason were hesitant to do so. Without the rest of the puzzle, I do not understand this statement.
It just means that Nirvana cannot be reached with the mind, but, as in Buddhism, by taking the mind to its very limit and then transcending it. Nirvana means no more YOU. You disappear to yourself. Then what is left? Only Nirvana. Nirvana becoming aware of itself is the mystery of Enlightenment. You could also say God becoming aware of himself, or Love becoming aware of itself, by YOU getting out of your own way. Remember, this is not supposed to make sence - it's supposed to blow your mind so you can take it to heart. I am sorry if I cannot say it better to be helpful.by Asiaprod-Then I have a question, if enlightenment is only a by product, what should be the goal?
Selflessness, Love, Kindness and Compassion for their own sake, without the ulterior motive, or goal, of enlightenment. Then again, Love and Compassion are the by product of Enlightenment. So maybe it doesn't matter which one we make our goal. In any case, to reach either "goal" (only the mind can set a goal), the goal needs to be dropped. I think it is what you mean by saying you are putting it on the back burner.by Asiaprod-This is why I think it is not just a question of being so far beyond language, rather it is a question that we lack the understanding to properly recognize it when we achieve or experience it, and the ability to properly describe it to others as it is a personal thing.
Yes, we "do lack the understanding to properly recognize it when we achieve or experience it, and the ability to properly describe it to others", but that is because we try to understand and recognise it with the mind rather than the proper organ - the heart. I have not used this term - the heart - so far because to most it means emotions and human love - but we can use it here carefully. The heart trusts beyond reason, loves beyond reason, has courage beyond reason - all this is required for Enlightenment, even during mental inquiry, but especially in the end.
I think I know what you mean, and you are right, but allow me to turn it around anyway - If anything, it is 100% - finally- a non-personal thing. The minute you are enlightened, everyone is enlightened. Nothing remains personal. It is not that you cannot describe it - any other enlightened one will laugh with you and understand everything you say about enlightenment, and of course think you are a fool to open your mouth, but people who "do not yet recognize" their own enlightenment will not understand you unless they listen with their hearts and get a glimps of that which cannot be grasped with the mind. So, yes, all we can do is talk and help each other, before and after Enlightenment. Nobody can give it to anybody, since it has already been given.-it is a personal thingby Asiaprod-I do not understand the reference to Grace here. In my current state, I understand Grace to be a Christian construct that implies a gift of salvation from a God that I do not believe in.
Bad choice of words then. I don't know what Christians mean by Grace, but I don't know a better word, maybe you can offer one from Buddhism, that would describe that last little piece that is independent of us and our efforts, so that Enlightenment, Nirvana can reach us, as a gift" out of nowhere and for no reason, rather than us reaching it, like a goal, by our own efforts. I tell people to hold Enlightenment and Nirvana as a wish, their dearest wish, their only wish, rather than a goal. Once again, you seem to already be doing this by just "waiting for things to be revealed."
About your teacher-
You are so very fortunate to have a teacher- fellow traveler- like that, and whenever you write about it, it warms my heart. Two friends walking hand in hand towards the light. Give him my love, also your long-suffering wife, while we're at itby Asiaprod - In Japanese we call this Kenzoku I always found it easier to love and feel kinship with my teachers and my master, than my husband. Now my husband.
As long as you do not eat more than you need to, I don't think you are. Buddhist concept of non-violence, you'd have to integrate that somehow with eating animals, but in general, eating too much is the problem, not what you eat. In my own experience, the more I eat, and the denser the food, the more attachment and emotions - those damn emotions;) - have strength. Therefore most religions have some sort of restrictions or recommendations regarding food as part of their practices. It seems to help.by Asiaprod -I do not see why if I eat fish or meat I am causing some restriction to myself.
Ahh, Beloved Asiaprod, my heart goes out to you. This is the fear of the loving husband, friend and father. This very fear IS your fear of death! Be very aware of that and understand it deeply.by Asiaprod- I have no fear of death,... My fear is leaving behind those I love and care for.
Luckily, with this particular fear you get a lot of help.0 -
by Asiaprod-
a. The minute you are enlightened, everyone is enlightened.
b. Nobody can give it to anybody, since it has already been given.
re: a) To the enlightened one everyone is enlightened. To the unenlightened one everyone is unenlightend. The enlightened one no more distinguishes between enlightenment and unenlightenment. This is transcending the mind.
b) Enlightenment is also sometimes described as self-realization, or realizing our true nature, or original face. How could anyone give you your true nature - you already have it.
I enjoyed your other responses to my post, Thank You. Somehow my post got repeated so many times -
Oh, well - 0 -
Hum, that certainly is an enlightened way to look at it. I must think on this more. I can grasp the "To the unenlightened one everyone is unenlightened" but I cannot yet fully grasp the latter part " To the enlightened one everyone is enlightened." Does this mean that every one is already enlightened, but have not yet come to awareness that they are indeed enlightened, and by understanding this the enlightened one can perceive that in fact all are enlightened and therefore no longer needs to make any distinction between individual. Wow, either that is very deep or I am just babbling incoherently.MeditationMom wrote:re: a) To the enlightened one everyone is enlightened. To the unenlightened one everyone is unenlightend. The enlightened one no more distinguishes between enlightenment and unenlightenment. This is transcending the mind.
Ah, now we are both on the same page. I understand enlightenment more from the perspective of realizing our true nature. This is the purpose behind which we meditate (in our case Chant), to perceive our true nature. I think I have experienced this fleetingly twice in my life, and the funny thing is I could not describe it if you put a gun to my head. Many of my Buddhist friends noticed an immediate change in me. Lasted for about 2 days of bliss, walking around with a stupid grin on my face. Then alas I became human again. Fleeting as a shadow, but I was told that it was indeed a moment of realization. We all get them, I guess with practice these moments become more regular till eventually one remains in this state.b) Enlightenment is also sometimes described as self-realization, or realizing our true nature, or original face. How could anyone give you your true nature - you already have it.
We all do this, don't worry, I have PMed the Mod to delete the extra 2 posts. Got to make space for all the enquiring minds out there to have their say. I do appriciate this dialogue, it is fascinating. Learned a whole lot already. Thanks.I enjoyed your other responses to my post, Thank You. Somehow my post got repeated so many times - Oh, well -0 -
Hi everybody!Asiaprod wrote:Hum, that certainly is an enlightened way to look at it. I must think on this more. I can grasp the "To the unenlightened one everyone is unenlightened" but I cannot yet fully grasp the latter part " To the enlightened one everyone is enlightened." Does this mean that every one is already enlightened, but have not yet come to awareness that they are indeed enlightened, and by understanding this the enlightened one can perceive that in fact all are enlightened and therefore no longer needs to make any distinction between individual. Wow, either that is very deep or I am just babbling incoherently.
It seems to me to be "the basic thought", yes. (Though I'm no expert on this). So I go for the "very deep" alternative...Asiaprod wrote:I guess with practice these moments become more regular till eventually one remains in this state.
Or understand that this state is trancending everything, always?Asiaprod wrote:I have no fear of death,... My fear is leaving behind those I love and care for.
I have been wondering:
Do you think that if we could remember all our, perhaps uncountable, past lives* that we– on remembering all those hundreds of thousands of loved ones (whom we maybe never thought we could manage to live without) that we have lost in lives after lives – would maybe just give up the idea, once and for all, that we really have people to lose, because to remember incalculable lives and losses would (I suspect) take away the idea that we can really "have anyone" at all (because how can we say that we really have anyone when they suddenly disappear or change, or our relationship changes – and this happens all the time, with everybody we are close to, in life after life). And if we lose the idea that we can really have someone that would also free us from the idea that there is somebody to lose. By which I don't mean that we wouldn't be sad when people die, of course - It's natural and human to grieve when people die - only, perhaps, that we would see that we never really "had them" and therefore could not really lose them, either? I don't know. Just a thought.
*(If the Buddhist theory of reincarnation is "correct", that is.)0 -
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Hi Asiaprod/Peter!Asiaprod wrote:It appears that on the one hand we need to exhibit the emotions of compassion and love, while on the other hand we are striving to erase these emotions which are seen are a handicap to attaining a true understanding.
I don't think erasing emotions is the way to go at all. Emotions seems to me only to be a problem when we fight them (or when we start to believe in the destructive thoughts that they often generate). Grief hurts - yes it does - but it's only grief plus the trying to fight the grief that is really so unendurable. And anger - in it's pure form its a powerfull energy (all feelings are energy) - but according to my experience it's only when I either try to fight it because that I will not accept that I can feel angry (or sad or jealous or envious, grudging or petty) or when I start to believe the thoughts that the anger (or jealousy, envy, grudge...) generates in me, that the anger (or other emotions) might become destructive. And so it is, I believe, with all "negative" feelings. If we are to accept the here and now - be aware of the here and now and live in the now - I think we have to accept all emotions, because they are part of the human condition, and the now.
Of course sometimes the right thing to do might be to deviate from a "negative" emotion when we really are not capable of handelling it or when we are not able to stop believing in the thoughts it is generating (like when you have a severe depression) - but only after having recognized it for what it is. Holding on to negative emotions - or clinging to them is of course not better than fighting them, I've tried that as well... I now try to be aware, recognize, accept - and let go. But not fight, not erase. We'll see where that leads me.Asiaprod wrote:all that you have said is very sensible and sounds very valid. Yes this would indeed appear to be the way to approach it. There is only one problem.............try it. It is not going to be easy. Look at your Mom and Pop and sisters brothers and boyfriend/girlfriend, now tell yourself that you don't really have someone to loose. Its not a very comforting thought is it? Oh, I am sure we could convince ourselves that this is not so, but I doubt we would be being true to ourselves.
That's what I do all the time - I look at the people in my life and I experience again and again that I don't really "have" them ... not a single one of them. And I am in the process of grieving that fact. And sometimes I see that it means that there are nobody to loose either, and that it can give me the opportunity to love freely and more, without grasping. But normally I am not there - I still try to "hold on to" people - and I guess what I will have to do is to dare feel my grief without holding back. Then I might feel more compassion for my fellow human beings as well, who are fighting the same kind of grief. I also think that not fighting my "negative" feelings - but instead treating them, and myself when I experience them, friendly and with compassion - might ,and will, also release more positive feelings, like happiness. Like love.
Another thing I have been wondering about (and which in a way I have maybe experienced a glimpse of), is that if we remembered more of our past lives (or some of them), that we would see that we don't even "have ourselves" - not in the way we normally think, at least. Because we have been so many different people. We are changing all the time, even inside one life we are.
These are just my thoughts, I don't know if I am right or if they are valid to any other person than myself. I am basically just writing what falls into my head, and I am sorry if I am now very off topic.0 -
by Asiaprod-- but I cannot yet fully grasp the latter part " To the enlightened one everyone is enlightened." Does this mean that every one is already enlightened, but have not yet come to awareness that they are indeed enlightened, and by understanding this the enlightened one can perceive that in fact all are enlightened and therefore no longer needs to make any distinction between individual.
Yes, no more individuals with all their unique differences in body, mind and spirit. Yet each one is treasured as the only one.
Here is one way I sometimes explain this -
We are all running around in our clothing (Unenlightenment). Underneath we are all naked(Enlightened). We fuss about our clothes endlessly. All this "suffering" regarding our clothes - money, shopping, fashion, seasons, storage, laundry and so on - finally here comes the Buddha and tells us we need to disgard our clothes to end this suffering. He teaches us about all our layers; sequences of how to take them off; how we put them on in the first place and why; that we need to not be afraid to lose them and with it our warmth, protection, status, culture etc, etc. He talks about the bliss of nakedness, and the methods to uncover. People learn his teachings, some understand better than others and become great teachers of disrobing. More and more clothes are put on by some even, so everyone can practice more undressing. But people see the Buddha sitting there in clothes.
Compassion, he says, forgetting about clothes all together. Because we are serving others, we at least don't put any more clothing on additionally, and may even give a few coats away to the needy, therefore lightening our load. Our clothes get shabby until they fall off on their own accord (the idea of karma and merit).
Once in a while, we take a swim with the Buddha (Discourse, Satsang, Sutras, Chanting and Praying, Meditation) we experience our nakedness, but the minute the swim is over, before long we put our clothes back on and forget about our nakedness, because we still care what we wear and are identified with it.
The Buddha stays naked even though he puts on some clothes, because he doesn't identify with them. He puts them on not to cover his nakedness, but so he can keep taking them on and off to demonstrate the process of losing clothes, and to be able to point to what is nakedness and what is not nakedness.
He sees all as naked and his compassion is to just guide us - "no, pull that shirt up now, over your head, it is ok if you cannot see for a moment", "you cannot get out of your pants both legs at the same time, one leg first, then the other", "why are you going shopping? thinking of putting on more clothes? better clothes? it won't help; even the most beautiful clothes will keep you from nakedness", "why are you envious of her clothes, they are just clothes, you don't need them" and so on.
Then of course the inevitable happens. Somebody gets naked and manages from putting clothing back on. Now naked is better than not-naked. He/she has won the competition. Wants to teach like the great Buddha. Now Nakedness, Buddhahood and Teaching has become the new beautiful clothing! All the Buddha can do is put on a lot of clothing to help this one, which will confuse all the others. All along though, throughout this confusing, paradox dance of buddhas, teachers and students, many glimpses of nakedness, and situations of dressing and undressing, to show us the way and to pull us home. The only wrong conclusion would be that the effort is invain, because being dressed and being naked is the same, and everyone is already naked underneath anyway. It is only the same for the Buddha.by Asiaprod- Ah, now we are both on the same page. I understand enlightenment more from the perspective of realizing our true nature. This is the purpose behind which we meditate (in our case Chant), to perceive our true nature. I think I have experienced this fleetingly twice in my life, and the funny thing is I could not describe it if you put a gun to my head. Many of my Buddhist friends noticed an immediate change in me. Lasted for about 2 days of bliss, walking around with a stupid grin on my face. Then alas I became human again. Fleeting as a shadow, but I was told that it was indeed a moment of realization. We all get them, I guess with practice these moments become more regular till eventually one remains in this state.
This is both beautiful and a problem. Yes, it was a moment of realization with the resulting bliss - nice long time, too - two days! You both earned it, in other words did the work by meditation, chanting etc, and were blessed to have this experience (Grace?;) -just trying to seduce you into a positive reaction regarding Grace).
What happened then? Can you say how this then got "lost"? If you had watched very carefully inside at the time, you would have noticed how the mind then "grabbed it" for itself. The body reporting this wonderful blissful joy and lightheartedness, floating through the world, smiling, then suddenly the mind saying "I" am experiencing this, then trying to figure out how this happened, how it can be maintained, repeated, prolonged, made permanent. These would not have to have been actual conscious thoughts on your part, but a certain suble tension arising in mind and body you could have perceived. As tension rises it becomes thoughts, more intense they become words, then actions. And you are back functioning in your regular life mode.
And here is the problem part, Asiaprod, I am noticing that you are making an assumption that Enlightenment results in this bliss being permanent. There is no mental or physical state in Enlightenment that is permanent. Only Enlightenment is permanent. Kind of like your body keeps changing throughout your life, but your name is actually the same before birth and after death. There is an independent co-existence of the two, the same with your body/mind and Enlightenment.by Maitri-...is that if we remembered more of our past lives (or some of them), that we would see that we don't even "have ourselves" Very good!!!
This is very, very good! This could take you all the way home!by Asiaprod- Look at your Mom and Pop and sisters brothers and boyfriend/girlfriend, now tell yourself that you don't really have someone to loose. Its not a very comforting thought is it? Oh, I am sure we could convince ourselves that this is not so, but I doubt we would be being true to ourselves.
This "loosing" and "having" our loved ones can only be solved with simultaneous understanding of interrelatedness, impermanence and emptyness. Nothing is ever lost. The whole remains whole. Forms change and are interdependend because of cause and effect. But understanding, or even knowing truth, is still far from living it when a child or loved one dies.
Why? - because we do have bodies and minds and emotions, and the identification mechanism of the mind needs to be recognised and mastered in order not to suffer from it. This is not so easy - at first
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The body lives here now in this physical moment. Let's say someone comes over and chops off your arm. It hurts. You scream in pain. Finished.
Dogs at this point just keep on keeping on and run around on three legs like nothing happened.
But not so for us. Here comes the mind: "What just happened? Big change. What does that mean? No more hugging. This should NOT have happened. Why did this happen? How do I protect the other arm? If he did that to me should I hand him the other arm or chop off his arm too? What if...."(Make this paragraph as gigantic as you wish.) If we could keep the mind in agreement with the body and the present, in the present, all would be well. Pain yes, suffereing no.
This discrepancy between the busy mind, and the body in the physical present, builds up tension, which can be released in the form of emotions, sex, exercise, breathing/chanting, etc. The suffering before release is proportionate to this discrepancy and so is the intensity of the release. Everytime a natural release is allowed according to one's preferences a moment of bliss, peace, eternity is there. As we notice this we want more and more of this peace but go about it the wrong way. More sex, more emotional release seminars, more religious rituals etc all just create tension first and then give momentary release. The secret is in discovering how the mind undoes our peace in the first place.
The image I use is of the Body standing outside with the Sun(your brilliantly bright mind, your light) right above your head as it would be at 12 noon. As long as you keep it above you, there is just the body and the light. The minute you let it wander you have a shadow (your identifications and suffering).
The brilliance of your mind is the intelligence with which it thinks. I don't mean IQ here. For lack of a better word I call it devine intelligence that is always with you.
One more thought on Karma -
I have a mathematician friend who once proved to me that the way we think of karma in terms of past lives is impossible by just checking population numbers. As we discussed the issue of time and space in physics and religious teachings we came to the conclusion they do not exist. This long discussion which also had the speed of light, motion, distance and therefore the reappearance ot time and space, in there somewhere, left me with the notion that everyone I encounter may just be me having made different choices over thousands of lifetimes. Also whatever I solve in this lifetime gets solved in all "my" previous lifetimes. My karma is your karma and your karma is my karma. The separation between "I" and "You" disappeared. It makes it all three dimensional instead of linear and my mathematician friend couldn't disprove that one. It also somehow took the suffering out of relationships - when I remembered it.
Now we just need to find our way home to the L. Sutra. Anyone find anything about the two-fold egolessness?0 -
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Thanks for beautiful posts, Asia and MeditationMom!Asiaprod wrote:I agree that we must accept them, but I think the point I am seeking clarity here is how not to be effected or influenced by them other than by erasing them. This is a point I feel that is often misrepresented or not debated enough in lectures. How do I go about ignoring or negating their influence.
Do I (a) just pay them fleeting recognition as in "Oh yes that was Anger" and then move on,
Do I (b) work through them trying to understand what caused the emotion to pop up and how to prevent it happening again,
Or do I (c) get consumed by them.
in the case of (a) I would imagine a person who just ignored emotions could turn into a very cold and self-centered individual and this is what I do not want to become.
In the case of (b) this is probably where I currently fit in.
Case (c) is of course the one place I do not want to be.
I have read so many answers to this question. I wonder what is the general consensus.
I would change the c) alternative to "feel the emotions" - without thoughts and judgements, if possible, feel them as the pure energies that they are, but certainly not to be consumed of them. (Though maybe that is sometimes needed to learn some lesson, as well. I know that's what happens to me sometimes.)
Then I would go for all the alternatives.Asiaprod wrote:I have a little difficulty understanding this one. It sounds very good maitri, but does it work when you put a wife and a child into the equation, the 3 individual in question very much "have" each other. The husband and wife made a commitment to "have" each other and together they made a third person who also will "have" its parents. Maybe Meditation Mom, as a Mom herself, can help to clarify this one for us.
What shall I say, Asia: I've never been in such relations (at least not in this life – my life is actually in many ways almost irritatingly much like the life of a nun), so I wouldn't know. But I would say that the very fear of losing somebody is in itself proof that we don't really "have" him or her. "Only" in the way MeditationMom beautifully points out:
"This "loosing" and "having" our loved ones can only be solved with simultaneous understanding of interrelatedness, impermanence and emptiness. Nothing is ever lost. The whole remains whole. Forms change and are interdependent because of cause and effect. But understanding, or even knowing truth, is still far from living it when a child or loved one dies."
You know, the closest I can get to understand the married situation that you are talking about, is to see what I "remember" (if that really is what I do - I'm a sceptic and don't necessarily trust that all memories are literally "true") from past lives. And you know, I could even meet persons that I "remember" having once been that close to, but now things have moved on. And when I meet them, it becomes clear: "I" never "had" them. They've past on. And so have I. I might miss what once "was" and even grieve that I can’t get it back, but as meditationMom says: "form changes". Trying to hold on to it will certainly only produce pain. And even I am not the same anymore.
But this is probably not of any help for you, since you are in a very different situation. I guess you'll just have to accept both your love for your loved ones and your fear of losing them as part of your life. And try to find happiness even when you're scared. You know, like my favourite Jesuit Priest Anthony de Mello wisely says: We must not set conditions for being happy, and say: "I refuse to be happy until I'm not scared or in pain". Or: "I refuse to be happy if I don't get the man or women that I want and the right job and a lot of money." I guess the "trick" is to be unconditionally happy. Om only just in the beginning of learning that now, so I'm no expert.
Maybe you'll just have to accept the "scary quality" of life? I don't know, you know best for yourself. Trust your instincts. (I guess you already do ).
Hugs to you all!
Maitri0 -
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by Asiaprod- Also strange for me was my Teacher remarked on it before I even had a chance to tell him that I thought it had happened.
Not so strange. YOU, weren't there, to report on anything.
I am really enjoying your posts, everyone. I wish there were time to respond to every single thing you say or report about. If we were in one room we could see each other's shining eyes and keep nodding our heads, but here we just have to trust all that is happening.by Asiaprod- ... but I am sure its got to be more than walking around with a stupid grin on my face
Are you sure?Quote:
Originally Posted by MediationMom
The secret is in discovering how the mind undoes our peace in the first place.
by Asiaprod- Oh yes, tell me about this one. This has got to lie at the core of this issue. Do you know how, I don't.
You have to watch it happening. It would be like watching how you fall asleep at night. It is hard to catch, but it is possible. By the time you notice any of the emotions it is way too late. What you do with the emotions is just have them and move on, try to have your compassion motivate you not to hurt people with them, go to your room with the ugliest ones.
Every emotion is preceeded by an idea or thought, so even by the time you have a thought it is "too late". It has already happened.
The root of every thought is "I". Even if you are just watching a beautiful sunset, all of a sudden the mind grabs it and says "Such a beautiful sunset". Even at the root of this thought is "I". The simple fact that you have the thought means you just separated yourself from the sunset into "I" and "the sunset". No thought possible in union.
Ramana Maharshi's method to be vigilant about this is first an intense inquiry in the form of "Who am I"? If I have a car accident and loose both legs, is something gone from this "I". If i put on 50 pounds? Etc. Intense inquiry leads to the discovery that "I" does not exist at all!
But, then you are back in your life. Vigilantly you keep asking yourself, with every thought you are having , "Who is upset?, Who dislikes...? Who's opinion is this? and so on, always returning to the original realization that "I" is an illusion. 0 -
We're all buddhas deep down somewhere, we just have to dig it out ourselves - can't be given it!Asiaprod wrote:b. Nobody can give it to anybody, since it has already been given.
Like the last line of the Sutra says:
"But, if they only realized it, they are already in the Tathágata’s Nirvana for, in Noble Wisdom, all things are in Nirvana from the beginning."
You know, I tried thinking about something like that in relation to having an argument with someone. I'm sorry, I don't know how to explain this... how much self and ego contributes to ongoing hostility. Sorry, I know this might seem a bit offtopic, but that's what came straight to mind.MM wrote:Ramana Maharshi's method to be vigilant about this is first an intense inquiry in the form of "Who am I"? If I have a car accident and loose both legs, is something gone from this "I". If i put on 50 pounds? Etc. Intense inquiry leads to the discovery that "I" does not exist at all!
But, then you are back in your life. Vigilantly you keep asking yourself, with every thought you are having , "Who is upset?, Who dislikes...? Who's opinion is this? and so on, always returning to the original realization that "I" is an illusion.
How should we deal with anger - "I am angry" or "this is anger"?
Hiya maitrimaitri wrote:The five Dharmas, is that the same as the five precepts (not killing, stealing etc...)? And is the three Svabhavas the same as the three jewels (Buddha, Sangha, Dharma)?, and the eight Vijnanas is the eightfold path (1.Right view 2. Right intention 3. Right speech 4. Right action, etc.)? sorry it took me so long...
let's see, the five dharmas are stated in the sutra as:
"The Blessed One replied: The five Dharmas are: appearance, name, discrimination, right-knowledge, and Reality."
As for the rest...
oh!
I have found this site, while trying to look for your answers:
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dream_world_ch_1.htm
This looks to be a good commentary on it, I will read it more thoroughly myself now.
To quote from it in specific answers to you:
+ some paragraphs on the specifics of the svabhavas;In Sanskrit the word "Svabhavas" means "being, or the substance that gives substance to it self." The meaning of this somewhat esoteric sounding statement will become clearer as we examine just what it was that these students had realized.
+ more paragraphs on this.The final point for us to examine in this opening paragraph is the statement, ("they were thoroughly versed in the…") eight Vijnanas. According to one source, "Vijnana" is a Sanskrit word that means, "Higher mind." However, when we take the word apart, "Vi" is found to mean "to split or divide," while the rest of the word would best be translated as "to know or to realize."
Vijnana is the ability to differentiate or distinguish between objects.
I hope this helps! I've certainly learned, anyway!0 -
Hi bluewolf- long time no see-by Bluewolf- How should we deal with anger - "I am angry" or "this is anger"?
First, realize that there is nothing "wrong" with anger, and you are not trying to get rid of it, but to master it. You need to control the anger instead of it controling you.
Secondly, understand that there are many situations in which anger is an appropriate response. I am sure you have heard of zen stories in which the master, with compassion, uses anger to rattle the desciple out of his sleep and ignorance.
What you are asking, really, is, " How do I become a master of my emotions. How do I go from automatic reacting to calm and intelligent responding, which can include anger?"
Practice, practice, practice
What you are suggesting in your post above is called witnessing and will over time help you to achieve this mastery. But keep it even shorter. Just: "Anger".
Also anger is one of the most deep-seated emotions, one of the most ancient, one of the most simple. So start with easier ones, and positive ones, like excitement, anticipation, wanting, etc. This mechanism of identification, tension, non-mastery, reaction versus responce, applies just the same to the positive emotions. Try not laughing when something is really funny, for example - it is hard, but it is good training in this area. All emotions are already a higher state of tension, so relaxing and breathing through them also helps a lot in the beginning.
One more general thing about emotions - a lot of them are simply discharge of too much food. Anger comes from an overtaxed liver - too much fat, sugar alkohol - or, don't laugh - too little food. It makes us want to go out and kill something - to eat. Sadness comes from too much liquid, juice, alkohol, unbalanced by too little (meat or) salt in the diet. And so on and so on. If you want to study that further study Macrobiotics and Chinese Medicine. The more work your body has with digesting food, or with managing too little food intake, the more tension will be in it and until you can separate body and mind at will, your mind will tense with it. So keep your food simple, sufficent and fresh and you don't have to study anything. Chew well!0 -
Hiya MM,
that was mostly intended as a rhetorical question as dealing with anger isn't something I tend to have a problem with,
but nice post anyway! thank you
indeed I think anger can be a useful tool if used properly, but letting any such emotion run away with you can be a bad idea0 -
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Inquiry and Reflection need to be orderly and precise in order to lead anywhere - or nowhere, if we are truely lucky I think of it the way you would sweep a room. Unless you work from one corner to the opposing one in an orderly fashion it will not end up clean and satisfying. You could sweep all day long, a little here, a little there, and never end up with a clean room.
So we should go back to our Sutra, and now that we have all agreed that we are all already enlightended deep down , lets see whether we can understand these teachings with our minds, the very minds that we are hoping to transcend. Pure logic always leads, at the very end, to the only next logical step, which is the jump beyond.
The Lankavatara Sutra's Chapters:
Discrimination
False Imaginations and Knowledge of Appearances
Right Knowlege and Knowledge of Relations
Perfect Knowledge and Knowledge of Reality
The Mind System
Transcendental Intelligence
Self Realization
The Attainment of Self Realization
The Fruit of Self Realization
Descipleship: The Lineage of the Arhats
Boddisatvahood- and its stages
Tathagata-hood, Which is Noble Wisdom
Nirvana
Maybe we can summarize each chapter, then elaborate on its meaning and then maybe come to a conclusion about it before we move on to the next. See you all soon...0 -
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Humbly and boldly posting my comments on the Lankavatara Sutra, Chapter I, Discrimination - Service with a smile
BIONA Version
The Lankavatara Sutra
Dream World {A Commentary}
Chapter I
Discrimination
Thus have I heard:
...this phrase is supposed to be used, always, by the not yet enlightened ones when they report about what the master or Buddha has said, or as in this case, a mystical story not to be taken literally. Since they are repeating teachings, and not expressing (their own) enlightenment, a word or two might not be 100% exact in their descriptions of things...
The Blessed One once appeared in the Castle of Lanka, which is on the summit of Mt. Malaya in the midst of the great Ocean. A great many Bodhisattvas-Mahasattvas had miraculously assembled from all the Buddha-lands, and a large number of Bhikshus were gathered there. The Bodhisattvas-Mahasattvas with Mahamati at their head were all perfect masters of the various Samádhis, the tenfold Self-mastery, the ten Powers, and the six Psychic Faculties. Having been anointed by the Buddha’s own hands, they all well understood the significance of the objective world; they all knew how to apply the various means, teachings and disciplinary measures according to the various mentalities and behaviors of beings; they were all thoroughly versed in the five Dharmas, the three Svabhavas, the eight Vijnanas, and the twofold Ego-less-ness.
…no matter their high levels of skills and knowledge, as we see in the following paragragh, their minds are still agitated, requiring the Buddha’s compassion, attention and teachings…
The Blessed One, knowing the mental agitations going on in the minds of those assembled (like the surface of the ocean stirred into waves by the passing winds), and his great heart moved by compassion, smiled and said, "In the days of old the Tathágatas of the past who were Arhats and fully-enlightened Ones came to the Castle of Lanka on Mount Malaya and discoursed on the Truth of Noble Wisdom that is beyond the reasoning knowledge of the philosophers as well as being beyond the understanding of ordinary disciples and masters; and which is realizable only within the inmost consciousness; for your sakes, I too, would discourse on the same Truth. All that is seen in the world is devoid of effort and action because all things in the world are like a dream, or like an image miraculously projected. This is not comprehended by the philosophers and the ignorant, but those who thus see things see them truthfully. Those who see things otherwise walk in discrimination and, as they depend upon discrimination, they cling to dualism. The world as seen by discrimination is like seeing one’s own image reflected in a mirror, or one’s shadow, or the moon reflected in water, or an echo heard in a valley. People grasping their own shadows of discrimination become attached to this thing and that thing and failing to abandon dualism they go on forever discriminating and thus never attain tranquility. By tranquility is meant Oneness, and Oneness gives birth to the highest Samádhi, which is gained by entering into the realm of Noble Wisdom that is realizable only within one’s inmost consciousness.
…Hmm….this is where I always tread in “dangerous” waters – “I, too, would discourse on the same truth” -maybe I can count on the kinship of my snow-cat friend. It is what I was trying to say with the movie analogy in the atheist Dawson thread. For me this is not just an intellectual understanding anymore, but an actual reality, and I can indeed comment on it – and thanks to you all I am finding the encouragement to do so.
The next six paragraphs are a successful attempt of Mahamati to demonstrate to the Blessed One that so far, intellectually, he has fully absorbed the teachings. They remind me of the Buddhist light bulb joke. (How many Buddhists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Three, one to screw it in, one not to screw it in, and one to screw it in and not to screw it in.) This is as much as is possible with the mind. It makes us laugh because the mind that we take so seriously and with which we identify ourselves so much, as useful as it is – is indeed useless, when it comes to realizing ultimate truth and reality. In other words, one does not need a Buddhist mind to screw in a light bulb, but what is less understood is that one also does not need a Buddhist mind to realize enlightenment. The mind itself is what is in the way – even though there is wisdom in training it in awareness and understanding as far as it can go.
Then all Bodhisattvas-Mahasattvas rose from their seats and respectfully paid him homage and Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva sustained by the power of the Buddhas drew his upper garment over one shoulder, knelt and pressing his hands together, praised him in the following verses:
As you review the world with your perfect intelligence and compassion, it must seem to you like an ethereal flower of which one cannot say: it is born, it is destroyed, for the terms beings and non-being do not apply to it.
As you review the world with your perfect intelligence and compassion, it
must seem to you like a dream of which it cannot be said: it is permanent or it is destructible, for the being and non-being do not apply to it.
As you review all things by your perfect intelligence and compassion, they must seem to you like visions beyond the reach of the human mind, as being and non-being do not apply to them.
With your perfect intelligence and compassion, which are beyond all limit, you comprehend the ego-less-ness of things and persons, and are free and clear from the hindrances of passion and learning and egoism.
(…here “learning” would have been better translated as “knowledge”. Learning never stops, even after enlightenment. But there is no more accumulation of, greed for, or holding onto any new understanding or knowledge)
You do not vanish into Nirvana, nor does Nirvana abide in you, for Nirvana transcends all duality of knowing and known, of being and non-being. (…here, even though Mahamati has not yet “reached” Nirvana, he describes it beautifully…)
Those who see thee thus, serene and beyond conception, will be emancipated from attachment, will be cleansed of all defilements, both in this world and in the spiritual world beyond.
…this is a great statement. If the student can see the Buddha “thus”, beyond conception, in other words in today’s language, tune into him, commune with him, be present with him, without holding any ideas or labels for him in his mind, in that moment the student momentarily joins the Buddha in the serenity that results from Enlightenment. In other words the student gets a taste in the presence of the master. This repeated experience with a master in combination with the love and trust in his master, eventually lets the student face annhiliation ( the breaking-of-the-projector-moment and subsequent self-realization) without fear, with the required serenity, and “attain” or “receive” the same Noble Wisdom, Enlightenment.
In this world whose nature is like a dream, there is place for praise and blame, but in the ultimate Reality of Dharmakaya, which is far beyond the senses and the discriminating mind, what is there to praise? O you who are most Wise!
…here he tries to convey that even though he is praising his teacher, he does understand that in ultimate reality, that is somewhat silly and dualistic of him…
Then said Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva: O blessed One, Sugata, Arhat and Fully-Enlightened One, pray tell us about the realization of Noble Wisdom which is beyond the path and usage of philosophers; which is devoid of all predicates such as being and non-being, oneness and otherness, both-ness and non-both-ness, existence and non-existence, eternity and non-eternity; which has nothing to do with individuality and generality, nor false-imagination, nor any illusions arising from the mind itself; but which manifests itself as the Truth of Highest Reality. By which, going up continuously by the stages of purification, one enters at last upon the stage of Tathágata-hood, whereby, by the power of his original vows unattended by any striving, one will radiate its influence to infinite worlds, like a gem reflecting its variegated colors, whereby I and other Bodhisattvas-Mahasattvas will be enabled to bring all beings to the same perfection of virtue.
…here Mahamati is confirming his altruistic Bodhisattva commitment and motivation…
Said the Blessed One: Well done, well done, Mahamati! And again, well done, indeed! It is because of your compassion for the world; because of the benefit it will bring upon many people both human kind and celestial, that you have presented yourself before us to make this request. Therefore, Mahamati, listen well and truly reflect upon what I shall say, for I will instruct you.
…Mahamati’s mind is so receptive and so open that even without Enlightenment he understands the explanations of the Buddha so well, that he can repeat the ideas back to him with demonstrable understanding and precision. Already there is no arguing, doubting, or wanting to separate himself from his teacher. It is so close to the Oneness of Enlightenment it is a joy for the Buddha to have such a worthy, sincere and “ready to receive” student, as ultimately, Enlightenment is a gift that is received, independent of all the efforts made for its attainment.
Then Mahamati and the other Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas gave devout attention to the teaching of the Blessed One.
…this is the magic – this deep love and total trust in the Buddha, this devout attention – this is also the purpose of the teachings - time thus spent. Ultimately, maybe more important than the teachings themselves…
…from here on, until the end of this chapter, this idea of maya, the illusionary world we find ourselves in, as a result of dualistic thinking, is expanded upon with many examples…
Mahamati, since the ignorant and simple-minded, not knowing that the world is only something seen of the mind itself, cling to the multitudinous-ness of external objects, cling to the notions of beings and non-being, oneness and otherness, both-ness and non-both-ness, existence and non-existence eternity and non-eternity, and think that they have a self-nature of their own, and all of which rises from the discriminations of the mind and is perpetuated by habit-energy, and from which they are given over to false imagination. It is all like a mirage in which springs of water are seen as if they were real. They are imagined by animals who, made thirsty by the heat of the season, run after them. Animals not knowing that the springs are merely hallucinations of their own minds, do not realize that there are no such springs. In the same way, Mahamati, the ignorant and simple-minded, their minds burning with the fires of greed, anger and folly, finding delight in a world of multitudinous forms, their thoughts obsessed with ideas of birth, growth and destruction, not well understanding what is meant by existence and non-existence, and being impressed by erroneous discriminations and speculations since beginning-less time, fall into the habit of grasping this and that and thereby becoming attached to them.
It is like the city of the Gandharvas which the unwitting take to be a real city when in fact it is not so. The city appears as in a vision owing to their attachment to the memory of a city preserved in the mind as a seed; the city can thus be said to be both existent and non-existent. In the same way, clinging to the memory of erroneous speculations and doctrines accumulated since beginning-less time, they hold fast to such ideas as oneness and otherness, being and non-being, and their thoughts are not at all clear as to what after all is only seen of the mind. It is like a man dreaming in his sleep of a country that seems to be filled with various men, women, elephants, horses, cars, pedestrians, villages, towns, hamlets, cows, buffalos, mansions, woods, mountains, rivers and lakes, and who moves about in that city until he is awakened. As he lies half awake, he recalls the city of his dreams and reviews his experiences there; what do you think, Mahamati, is this dreamer who is letting his mind dwell upon the various unrealities he has seen in his dream, is he to be considered wise or foolish? In the same way, the ignorant and simple-minded who are favorably influenced by the erroneous views of the philosophers do not recognize that the views that are influencing them are only dream-like ideas originating in the mind itself, and consequently they are held fast by their notions of oneness and otherness, of being and non-being. It is like a painter’s canvas on which the ignorant imagine they see the elevations and depressions of mountains and valleys.
…the mind thinks in words. It names everything, therefore is always split. Always! No Oneness, no truth, possible! Every word’s meaning excludes the opposite of it. Even though the Buddha is talking in words, in dualistic ways, about the wise and the ignorant, for example, he is trying to point out that this dualistic thinking is the very problem by which our world appears to us, and by which all our attachments to everything in it, happens. It takes very astute students to absorb such a teaching where with logical explanations and metaphores one tries to go beyond logic…
In the same way there are people today being brought up under the influence of similar erroneous views of oneness and otherness, of both-ness and not-both-ness, whose mentality is being conditioned by the habit-energy of these false-imaginings and who later on will declare those who hold the true doctrine of no-birth which is free from the alternatives of being and non-being, to be nihilists and by so doing will bring themselves and others to ruin. By the natural law of cause and effect these followers of pernicious views uproot meritorious causes that otherwise would lead to unstained purity. They are to be shunned by those whose desires are for more excellent things.
It is like the dim-eyed ones who seeing a hairnet exclaim to one another: "It is wonderful! Look, Honorable sirs, it is wonderful!" But the hairnet has never existed; in fact; it is neither an entity, nor a non-entity, for it has both been seen and has not been seen. In the same manner those whose minds have been addicted to the discriminations of the erroneous views cherished by the philosophers which are given over to the unrealistic views of being and non-being, will contradict the good Dharma and will end in the destruction of themselves and others.
It is like a wheel of fire made by a revolving firebrand which is no wheel but which is imagined to be one by the ignorant. Nor is it a not a wheel because it has not been seen by some. By the same reasoning, those who are in the habit of listening to the discriminations and views of the philosophers will regard things born as non-existent and those destroyed by causation as existent. It is like a mirror reflecting colors and images as determined by conditions but without any partiality. It is like the echo of the wind that gives the sound of a human voice. It is like a mirage of moving water seen in a desert. In the same way the discriminating mind of the ignorant, which has been heated by false-imaginations and speculations, is stirred into mirage-like waves by the winds of birth, growth, and destruction. It is like the magician Pisaca, who by means of his spells makes a wooden image or a dead body to throb with life, though it has no power of its own. In the same way the ignorant and the simple-minded, committing themselves to erroneous philosophical views become thoroughly devoted to the ideas of oneness and otherness, but their confidence is not well grounded. For this reason, Mahamati, you and other Bodhisattvas-Mahasattvas should cast off all discriminations leading to the notions of birth, abiding, and destructions, of oneness and otherness, of both-ness and not-both-ness, of being and non-being and thus getting free of the bondage of habit-energy become able to attain reality realizable within yourselves of Noble Wisdom.
(…”Noble Wisdom” as another word for “Enlightenment”)…
these last two paragraphs are important, and tricky to understand. As we intuitively approach the ultimate truth of reality, we start talking about emptiness, one-ness and otherness, being and non-being, illusion and ultimate reality. The teacher has given descriptions, in words, about this true reality, and we have grasped his teachings with our minds.
Getting closer and closer to the ultimate realization of true reality, deep within, is like being pregnant. Until the event of birth, the mother only has an idea of the baby, even though a pretty good and very real one by the time she is nine months pregnant. The baby also knows the outside world to a good degree - sounds, light, rhythms of the day. There is not much difference between the baby the day before it is born and the day of birth, there is not much difference in the world the day before the baby is born and the day the baby is born. Yet everything changes forever on the day of birth. The baby is born into a different reality and the world also has a new reality from then on, with one more person in it. What I mean to say is that intellectual understanding of ultimate reality can be very, very close. So close, that, before and after “Enlightenment” or Self-Realization, one would use almost the same words and descriptions of it.
We could go back to the idea of birth. A woman could have been at so many births, and could have heard so many women describing it, that she could explain it extremely well to anyone. Yet, it does not compare to having gone through it. This does not automatically mean that the woman who has actually given birth, would be better at describing it. So it is not always easy to know who is Home and who isn't yet, but knows a lot about it.
He says here, that even with the highest forms of learning and understanding, as is the case with philosophers and even these devotees, still the mechanism of the mind, of discriminating between things and ideas, needs to be “cast off”. In other words, whether holding dumb ideas or exhaulted ideas, the mechanism of the mind is the same. I have seen highly trained Buddhist friends of mine, getting so attached to “their Buddhist thinking” that Enlightenment seems far off for them. And I have exchanged glances, with an old black man in the San Francisco Airport, who sweeps the floors there, who is all the way Home…
Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Why is it that the ignorant are given up to discrimination and the wise are not?
The Blessed One replied: it is because the ignorant cling to names, signs and ideas; as their minds move along these channels they feed on multiplicities of objects and fall into the notion of an ego-soul and what belongs to it; they make discriminations of good and bad among appearances and cling to the agreeable. As they thus cling there is a reversion to ignorance, and karma born of greed, anger and folly, is accumulated. As the accumulation of karma goes on they become imprisoned in a cocoon of discrimination and are thenceforth unable to free themselves from the round of birth and death.
Because of folly they do not understand that all things are like Maya, like the reflection of the moon in water, that there is no self-substance to be imagined as an ego-soul and its belongings, and that all their definite ideas rise from their false discriminations of what exists only as it is seen of the mind itself. They do not realize that things have nothing to do with qualify and qualifying, nor with the course of birth, abiding and destruction, and instead they assert that they are born of a creator, of time, of atoms, of some celestial spirit. It is because the “ignorant” are given up to discrimination that they move along with the stream of appearances, but it is not so with the wise.
My point exactly! – without calling anyone “ignorant”, or myself “wise”.
It is because the “ignorant" (people in the movie theater) are given up to discrimination [ (calling this a good guy and this one a bad guy, this a tragedy and this good fortune, this a woman, this a man, this a child, this Catholicism, this Atheism, this Buddhism, this good karma and this bad karma, this enlightened, this un-enlightened)that they move along with the stream (the moving pictures) of appearances (of the movie), but it is not so with the wise (the one for whom the projector broke).
…Body, mind, thinking, language, enjoying and full involvement in the movie…are all present again after “the projector broke”, even pain in life, but no more suffering…0 -
Hi!:)
Thanks for your thoughts, MeditationMom.:) (And also thanks for the answers to my questions in the Dawkins-thread – the discussion seemed to have moved on before I got the chance to answer – it is always interesting to read about your experiences and thoughts.)
I also have some reflections on this Sutra and wonder if I get it right or if I misunderstand. And I would love to hear (well...read, probably) about it if you guys here have opinions on these topics.
There are some sentences in the Lankavatara Sutra that by first sight might look like a kind of philosophical Idealism - that is the claim that material objects don’t exist, only ideas (Like the old Irish philosopher Berkeley claimed) - or even nihilism, if they are read out of context:
“Objects are discriminated by the ignorant who are addicted to assertion and negation, because their intelligence has not been acute enough to penetrate into the truth that there is nothing but what is seen of the mind itself.” (p. 6)
“Mahamati, the error in these erroneous teachings that are generally held by the philosophers lies in this: they do not recognize that the objective world rises from the mind itself; they do not understand that the whole mind-system also arises from the mind itself” (p. 5)
“Mahamati, since the ignorant and simple-minded, not knowing that the world is only something seen of the mind itself(…)” (p. 5)
However, as I understand it (and I also think MeditationMom said something a bit similar in the Dawkins-thread, if I didn’t misunderstand), the meaning of these teachings actually is not a claim that material objects don’t exist, what they stress is the non-duality of all phenomena, and what they claim is that the material world is not to be seen as independent of the mind, because everything in this “fleeting world” is conditioned, changing and interdependent - and aspects of the same “Essence”:
“Mahamati, the error in these erroneous teachings that are generally held by the philosophers lies in this: they do not recognize that the objective world rises from the mind itself; they do not understand that the whole mind-system also arises from the mind itself; but depending upon these manifestations of the mind as being real they go on discriminating them, like the simple-minded ones that they are, cherishing the dualism of this and that, of being and non-being, ignorant to the fact that there is but one common Essence. (p. 5)
And:
“My teaching of no-birth and no-annihilation is not like that of the philosophers, nor is it like their doctrine of birth and impermanency. That to which the philosophers ascribe the characteristic of no-birth and no-annihilation is the self-nature of all things, which causes them to fall into the dualism of being and non-being. My teaching transcends the whole conception of being and non-being; it has nothing to do with birth, abiding and destruction; nor with existence and non-existence. I teach that the multitudinous-ness of objects have no reality in themselves but are only seen of the mind and, therefore, are of the nature of Maya and a dream. I teach the non-existence of things because they carry no signs of any inherent self-nature. It is true that in one sense they are seen and discriminated by the senses as individualized objects; but in another sense, because of the absence of any characteristic marks of self-nature, they are not seen but are only imagined. In one sense they are graspable, but in another sense, they are not graspable.”(s. 14.)
And:
“The assertion about objects that are non-existent is an assertion that rises from attachment to these associated marks of individuality and generality. Objects in themselves are neither in existence nor in non-existence and are quite devoid of the alternative of being and non-being;
This is, perhaps, stated in a clearer way in another Sutra, The Vajracchedika Prajna paramita Sutra (The Diamond Sutra):
“Subhuti (…) do not think that one gives rise to the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind one needs to see all objects of mind as nonexistent, cut off from life. Please do not think in that way. One who gives rise to the awakened mind does not deny objects (of the mind) or say that they are nonexistent.”
“For if you are caught up in ideas, then you would be caught up in the self. And even if you are caught up in ideas about nothingness, you will still be caught up in the self. That’s why we should not get attached to the belief that things either exist or do not exist. This is the hidden meaning when I say that my teachings are a raft to be abandoned when you see true being.” (Diamond Sutra, translated by Anne Bancroft)
“This is how you should contemplate . The world is an idea in the mind to which the word world has been attached. Beyond this idea is the mystery of beingness. But it’s not possible to free people from the attachment to the idea – to that which blinds them to the reality – without appropriate methods.” (Prajnaparamita sutra)
There is also a very beautiful explication of the meaning of non-duality in the Lankavatara Sutra:
“False-imagination teaches that such things as light and shade, long and short, black and white are different and are to be discriminated; but they are not independent of each other; they are only different aspects of the same thing, they are terms of relation and not of reality. Conditions of existence are not of a mutually exclusive character; in essence things are not two but one. Even Nirvana and Samsára’s world of life and death are aspects of the same thing, for there is no Nirvana except where is Samsára, and no Samsára except where is Nirvana. All duality is falsely imagined.” (p. 11)
I wonder if Buddhist philosophy could be seen as being somewhere between Idealism and Materialism – and between Nihilism and Eternalism? A middle path, so to say. (Or can it not be "placed" like this?) What do you think?
I also wonder if you perhaps have thoughts about what is meant by “Essence” and the “Beingness” or the “mystrery of beingness”?
But perhaps it is not really possible to say much about this, as it seems to be statements about something that is somewhat beyond words an concepts?
Love,
M.0 -
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Hi Maitri
What a conscientious and well ordered post. This Sutra will be a joy to explore together -
Remember the statement- "Before Enlightenment mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers." This is the normal experience of human beings. A mountain is a mountain, and in our minds is named a mountain. We see it , we feel it when we climb it, it blocks the sun etc. Suddenly we suffer. Maybe our child fell off a cliff and died. Also notice the separation between "me" and "mountain" and "child". On recommendation to do so, we start meditating and following instructions to end our "suffering". (This is the materialistic reality)
If this leads to enlightenment we learn first hand that nothing exists at all. That the whole world is a projection by the mechanism of our minds. Not just our projections of ideas onto reality by naming and thinking, but reality itself in its total physicality is actually a projection of the mechanism of the mind. As unreal and quick to evaporate upon "waking up" as a dream. No mountain, no child, no death, no self, no body, no mind, no suffering. (This is nihilistic if this is arrived at by thinking and philosophy alone. If it is enlightenment, though, the "Nothing" is very, very pregnant with Being, Consciousness and contains the opposite of "Nothing" which is infinite and eternal variety of form, life, dance, joy of being)
Enlightenment can only happen in a moment when the mind has been completely transcended, when all thinking of any kind has been suspended - when the projector has stopped long enough and we can see behind "the veil" of the illusion for a moment. Enlightenment will not remain permanent if the mind grabs this as "my experience", instantly making it an event in time and space with a before or after. But of course we have no choice in talking about it this way. In writing it is particularly difficult. When an enlightened person speaks, their "enlightenment" is picked up by the way the words and statements are spoken, containing within them the opposite of what is being said. This constant enlighened awareness of the inability of the mind/words to describe things properly comes across in the speaking and is the most important part of the conversation in a sutra. In a way nothing gets said. And yet, silence and truth get expressed in the process.
When the mind, and with it the whole world returns, we think: "Nothing exists, really, it is all an illusion." But because it has returned, we are also looking at the mountain and say to ourselves "This mountain is no longer what I thought it was. It is not a mountain but an illusion, seeming very real". This is closer to the truth for us now. But this causes a new kind ( well, actually the same-old-but-now-enlightened-mind-kind) of suffering, a "not being here now". A certain resistance or denial to what is before us, even if we know it is more true than what we knew before. Our mind feels that it wants to decide one way or the other how to think about reality. Which one is it? One or the other? Both simunltaneously? Or neither?by Maitri- I wonder if Buddhist philosophy could be seen as being somewhere between Idealism and Materialism – and between Nihilism and Eternalism? A middle path, so to say. (Or can it not be "placed" like this?) What do you think?
It is the mind that wants to "place" it, name it something. A clever alternative to dualism. "If it isn't this and it isn't that, I'll think of it as something in the middle." Both ideas, and all ideas in the middle between the two poles, need to be dropped. What if we held no ideas about "reality", or buddhism, or anything else, in our minds at all? Would "we" and "reality" not become one and the same, at once? Not understanding Buddhism as this or that, Buddha would appear. The Middle Way is an idea about how to live in a peaceful, non-extreme way, not how to think, as all thinking is to be transcended to simply end up with mental clarity.
Both the ideas we had before Enlightenment and after Enlightenment, are not supposed to be held onto. "No ideas" is how Enlightenment happened and it is not what we learned from the "event" that is important but "how it happened", the state of mind we were in, which was "no-mind". It is what we practice after Enlightenment, just as we did before Enlighenment. Even though Enlightenment is a goal we hope for by practicing, once it is reached it is just the beginning of life-long practice. The difference is that before Enlightenment there is still a choice to abandon the effort, not so afterwards.by Maitri- I also wonder if you perhaps have thoughts about what is meant by “Essence” and the “Beingness” or the “mystrery of beingness”?
But perhaps it is not really possible to say much about this, as it seems to be statements about something that is somewhat beyond words an concepts?
"Essence" and "Beingness", are the same. It means the Consciousness that pervades the whole Universe. This Consciousness is indeed conscious of everything at once, is eternal and infinite in its awareness of all things and itself, as One. Everything arises out of it and returns to it. A very pregnant Nothing that becomes everything and is independent of space and time. It is both infinitely powerful, and powerless. Its absolute powerlessness is its infinite power. This power, in other words is not limited by anything, because it is absolute powerlessness. Everything flows to it and from it. It is who we are, as is realized upon waking up from the false/dream self.
It is indeed beyond words and our normal human experience. These words will not make anyone "understand" this, maybe even annoy the logical mind, but the innermost being by way of the heart can "understand" something of this, from its deepest inner core.
And the second question "the mystery of beingness". Enlightenment, this "knowing" is "knowing nothing", absolutely. This knowing nothing is the very depth of knowledge and is the ultimate truth, total freedom, noble wisdom regarding the nature of existence, beingness. This all-pervading universal consciousness, this beingness, remains a mystery, yet there is nothing more to find out or realize. It is Self-Realization without "I", or as absolute and only "I", or beyond "I" - once again, all ideas in need of dropping.
The very moment we say anything about any of this, we also need to drop the ideas instantaneously. Enjoying them as a butterfly flying by, but not making a new teaching, philosophy or religion out of it. And most of these statements/sutras are usually made to dislodge either a wrong idea, or a right idea that is being held onto, or to confirm an idea that is right and expressed in the right mind state of non-attachment. As I am sure you have noticed in this sutra he talks about dualistic thinking as ignorant. This is what has to be said, but it cannot be held onto as a truthful idea or eternal statement, as it is in itelf a dualistic statement. The joy of buddhist or mystical conversation - it usually ends in a good belly laugh -
Of course after enlightenment, a mountain is a mountain is a mountain and therefore dualistic thinking is ignorant.
I just got a mental image of you and me holding hands spining in a circle, round and round like little girls, laughing, with our hair and skirts fluttering in the wind.
Thank you, Maitri0 -
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We know you are with us, Asiaprod. Like a smiling Buddha with his eyes closed while we are playing with words, trying to wrap them like pretty paper around the beautiful ideas in this sutra
I also will be gone from my computer for five days and will see you all next week. Much Love to everyone -0 -
...And I think I'll need some time to "digest" MeditationMom's answer. (Thank you MeditationMom!! )
Just one small comment:MeditationMom wrote:The difference is that before Enlightenment there is still a choice to abandon the effort, not so afterwards.
Do we really have a choice at any time of existence, I wonder? To me it seems like “life” has its own way (some times a hard way… when we resist...) of always forcing us “back in the saddle”, so to speak.
Best wishes to all of you!
(PS:I hope the work you are snowed under with is enjoyable, Asia, and not only ”toil and trouble”,ds.)
M.0 -
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