another hand from Macau 1k

TheRock

2nd level yesterday. Average stack about 30k
Blinds 400/800 with a 50 ante. (1650 in pot)
UTG+2(24k stack) raises to 4000. (5650 in pot)
Raiser solid, has been playing a few hands, but nothing crazy.
Has laid down to a couple of raises.
Folded to me (25k stack) me on button with AKsuited.
Whats your move?

shoutman

Well the raise looks strong to me, raising over x5 bb in early position,

It looks like he could have a decent hand but at the same time would like to take down the hand preflop.
Premium hand here on first glance maybe JJ?

Are you in the BB?

TheRock

shoutman wrote:

Are you in the BB?

No, I'm on the button.

shoutman

I'm probably flat calling this then reassess the situation post flop depending on raisers actions.

Hectorjelly

shoutman wrote:

I'm probably flat calling this then reassess the situation post flop depending on raisers actions.

I dont think putting 1/5 of your stack in with no plan for a flop is a good idea, 2/3 of the times you are going to flop nothing. I think folding or raising are fine here, calling is bad.

shoutman

Fair point HJ, do you think there is anything to read into with regards to the raisers x5 raise, would you consider this too strong if the guy is looking for some value from his AA/KK?

TheRock

You would actually consider folding this here?

I agree that I don't like calling. To me AKsuited is a hand to push with not to call with. If I am going to raise it's to at least 12k, however if do that its half my stack and I think I'm pot committed. If he calls, I miss the flop and it's checked to me (25k pot) my other 12k is going in.

Ollieboy

Need to know more about this guys hand range for raising with, but it sounds like he wants big action or he wants no action, I dont think he would like a flat call and if a poor flop hits, he might find it hard to bet, so in general, he could have 99 to QQ or AK/AQ here and just wants to take the hand down preflop.

You must remember, by flating calling you'll have position after the flop, I hate to flat call here, but I also hate to push without a made hand, if you were more shortstack it would be fine to push.

AK is a great hand to play preflop, but a horrible hand to play after the flop if you miss. If this player as 88 to 1010 and even jj he might have to lay it down to a reraise.

I would be flat calling here and using my position to take the pot down if the flop either hits me and he checks or if it misses me and he checks also, if its a low flop with no draws and he bets, you would have to give it up.

I'm guessing you push and got called by QQ which held up.

shoutman

It is a tricky one alright, my thought was that if you just call you still have enough chips to outplay your opponent post flop but if you raise and are called you are stuck.

The question with pushing is do you put him on aa/kk and if you dont do you wanna race for it?
I cant see anyone raising in this position with AQ...

Folding is an option as you gotta remember ak preflop is 50/50 against 22.
If you are going to push here i think it is a -ev play as I think at best you are gonna have him fold a semi bluff or at second best you are called b someone who you will be racing with.

Hectorjelly

shoutman wrote:

Folding is an option as you gotta remember ak preflop is 50/50 against 22.
If you are going to push here i think it is a -ev play as I think at best you are gonna have him fold a semi bluff or at second best you are called b someone who you will be racing with.

If this was true, and its not, then calling would be - EV too, unless you could magically see what scare cards to bluff at.

TheRock

Yes I decide to reraise allin, be aggressive, happy to take down 6k right there.

Oops:o , he turns over KK and I'm driving to Tramore races like a lunatic.:mad:

Cant get the hand out of my head. I think the only way I escape from this with chips is to flat call. But I just hate the call here, I think it weak/passive.
The flop was rags 8 high, he checks I bet, he leads out I probably lay it down.

Anyone think the push was OK and I just ran into one OR was the push just bad

(just hate AK at the moment played it twice in the event, ran into Aces first time, which knocked me down to 3k)

shoutman

Hectorjelly wrote:

If this was true, and its not, then calling would be - EV too, unless you could magically see what scare cards to bluff at.

What do you think isnt true?

You think pushing is a +ev move here?

Could you explain why please?

Sangre

I don't like the push as I think you're only going to be called when a severe underdog or a race at best.
Going by your read I'd have to put him on a strong, made hand. The 5bb raise means he wants people to pay for their position on them but he doesn't mind a call too much.
I'd call and see what the flop brings, hopefully taking it down because of some scare cards, as he'll put you on a wider range on the button.

RoundTower

I think this is a very clear push, most of the time you will pick up 5650 there and then and even if you get called you are in quite good shape.

Hitman Actual

shoutman wrote:

It is a tricky one alright, my thought was that if you just call you still have enough chips to outplay your opponent post flop but if you raise and are called you are stuck.

I dont think you can really outplay your opponent on the flop, tbh. There's not lot of hands he has that he makes a mistake with. Maybe he folds 88/99/TT if you push when checked to and the flop has a J or Q on it, but that's it, I think. Opponent will slow down to an A/K on the flop if he has an underpair, and probably push a flop he has an overpair to. But he can make a mistake now if you push. I like a push now, I think TheRock played it fine.

Hectorjelly

Id go so far as to say a call is atrocious. If there is an A or king on the board and you call or raise, utg will only continue with the hand if he has you beaten, its not like he wont be able to see the board as well. The only way you stack him is if he has AQ or KQ. Most of the times the board will give you no help, and if he bets the flop very little folding equity. Cold calling 1/5 of your stack preflop with a hand that needs help to continue is just bad full stop, over time its going to cost you money. You wont make enough the 1/3 of the time you do flop something, because the nature of AK is to give you a very visable pair. With QQ or JJ its much better because then you can commit on 2/3 of flops rather than 1/3, and your hand is disguised. If you both happen to have the same hand (AK) then the pfr is by far the fav to take the pot. Also if he has nothing, and no ace or king drops, he will most likely win the hand as well.

The thinking the players have is, I have AK, this is a good hand. Oh now utg has raised, well I dont want to reraise as my hand isnt that good. So whats the obv alternative, call. When in fact calling is worse than the other 2 options.

All of the people who have said call have both mentioned the fact that the original raiser might have AA KK, and that we can outplay them after the flop. These are mutually exclusive. With those stacks you will never get AA or KK to fold (KK might on a ace high board, but thats not outplaying thats outflopping).

So if utg is paticularly tight, and his range is something like AA KK QQ AK, then a fold is probably good. Otherwise with these stacks reraising is best.

Lastly not reraising with AK from time to time is hugely expoitable, if a reraise from you means AA or KK then you will be very easy to play against. Obv against morons this doesnt matter too much.

eggie

Hectorjelly wrote:

Id go so far as to say a call is atrocious. If there is an A or king on the board and you call or raise, utg will only continue with the hand if he has you beaten, its not like he wont be able to see the board as well. The only way you stack him is if he has AQ or KQ. Most of the times the board will give you no help, and if he bets the flop very little folding equity. Cold calling 1/5 of your stack preflop with a hand that needs help to continue is just bad full stop, over time its going to cost you money. You wont make enough the 1/3 of the time you do flop something, because the nature of AK is to give you a very visable pair. With QQ or JJ its much better because then you can commit on 2/3 of flops rather than 1/3, and your hand is disguised. If you both happen to have the same hand (AK) then the pfr is by far the fav to take the pot. Also if he has nothing, and no ace or king drops, he will most likely win the hand as well.

The thinking the players have is, I have AK, this is a good hand. Oh now utg has raised, well I dont want to reraise as my hand isnt that good. So whats the obv alternative, call. When in fact calling is worse than the other 2 options.

All of the people who have said call have both mentioned the fact that the original raiser might have AA KK, and that we can outplay them after the flop. These are mutually exclusive. With those stacks you will never get AA or KK to fold (KK might on a ace high board, but thats not outplaying thats outflopping).

So if utg is paticularly tight, and his range is something like AA KK QQ AK, then a fold is probably good. Otherwise with these stacks reraising is best.

Lastly not reraising with AK from time to time is hugely expoitable, if a reraise from you means AA or KK then you will be very easy to play against. Obv against morons this doesnt matter too much.

great post, cheers.

nicnicnic

I think the push is the play, the value AK is as a bullying hand and this is the exact situtation your looking for with it, your not walking into AA KK with a 5x raise very often. You played it right and were unlucky to walk into that hand imao dont beat yourself up over it.

NickyOD

straight fold preflop.

Either do that or stick in over half your stack now. Smooth calling is woeful. I don't think pushing is terrible but it might make your hand look too much like AK.

shoutman

Great explanation HJ, I agree now that a flat call is definately not the right option if this scenario was to come up again.

cheers
Luke

mdwexford

NickyOD wrote:

straight fold preflop.

Either do that or stick in over half your stack now. Smooth calling is woeful. I don't think pushing is terrible but it might make your hand look too much like AK.

so you muck ak suited to a single raise all the time???
especially to an opponent who you've seen get pushed off hands earlier

calling is not an option. you move in every single time here. the amount of times you're in terrible shape is not many. the odds of him having aces or kings here are big, anything else and its ok. i agree with nicnic, just got unlucky alan, nothing you could do imo

sligobhoy

PUSH PUSH PUSH. AA or KK just unfortunate. U need to get chips somehow. Obviously u could wait for a better spot but its all abt winning and u cant wait for AA KK all night or u ante ure self to death.

bops

if you fancy a race - push!

just be aware that he could be laughing with AA of KK
...gererally i'd fold - I would raise strong with AK but not call a large raise/ reraise with 'em (depending on stack size etc...)

BigDragon

mdwexford wrote:

so you muck ak suited to a single raise all the time???
especially to an opponent who you've seen get pushed off hands earlier

calling is not an option. you move in every single time here. the amount of times you're in terrible shape is not many. the odds of him having aces or kings here are big, anything else and its ok. i agree with nicnic, just got unlucky alan, nothing you could do imo

If you read the OP this is exactly the type of player you can drop AKs against. He has position and it says he has laid down to raises not re-raises before. Play the player 9/10 here not the cards.

Push or fold. Fold is a viable option here.