The nature of sin.

Rev Hellfire

I’d be curious to get peoples view on a matter a few of us had a discussion about, namely does a person sin by the nature of their actions or their intention.

For example to pick a nice historical example of a witch-finder, and for the purposes of this discussion we shall assume this is an individual who believes they are doing the lords work. Would they be damned for their deeds (which where barbaric in the extreme) in spite of not knowingly committing a sin?

I would argue that they are not, since they did so in the belief they where committing good although the result of their action was evil.

ie. you can never unknowingly sin.

Medina

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I’d be curious to get peoples view on a matter a few of us had a discussion about, namely does a person sin by the nature of their actions or their intention.

For example to pick a nice historical example of a witch-finder, and for the purposes of this discussion we shall assume this is an individual who believes they are doing the lords work. Would they be damned for their deeds (which where barbaric in the extreme) in spite of not knowingly committing a sin?

I would argue that they are not, since they did so in the belief they where committing good although the result of their action was evil.

ie. you can never unknowingly sin.

I would imagine that a lot of these 'witch-hunters' committed their deeds under the guise of 'doing the lord's work'. The Lord didn't burn any witches and He saved the adulteress' life saying (roughly) 'Let the man among you without any sin cast the first stone'.

God knows the intentions that were in their hearts, and I would say the evidence for tolerance and forgiveness is in the New Testament which they must have conveniently forgotten to read.

luckat

Did you take pleasure in the thought, my son?

hairyheretic

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I would argue that they are not, since they did so in the belief they where committing good although the result of their action was evil.

Isn't there a line about the road to hell being paved with good intentions?

I think both the act and the motivation for it need to be looked at when making a judgement.

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

Isn't there a line about the road to hell being paved with good intentions?

I think both the act and the motivation for it need to be looked at when making a judgement.

In the camp of the "Bellybutton Gazers." The intention defines the act, not the act itself. Or in our lingo, The cause was made the effect is just a matter of time.

For example. I pick up a stone with the intention of putting it through a window, I throw it, a bird flies in the path and deflects the stone and the window is save. Nothing changed other than good fortune smiled on the window. I still made a decision and acted on it. The cause (sin) was made, the effect is to follow.

mloc

In reality, a sin is a sin based solely on it's effect on others or their perception of your actions.

Essentially, it's only a sin if you get caught.

T-1111111111111

I dont know what deeds are evaluated in Christianity, but here's how they are evaluated in Islam, since there must be a similarity.

Deeds/works are evaluated by intention.

For example, if your intention was good, and you do good, then its all good. But more precisely, here are two examples of the Prophet's, pbuh, saying:


Vol 1, Book 1. Revelation.
Hadith 001. (Shahi Bukhari)

Narrated By 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for."


Vol 8, Book 76. To Make The Heart Tender (Ar-Riqaq....
Hadith 498. (Shahi Bukhari)

Narrated By Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet narrating about his Lord I'm and said, "Allah ordered (the appointed angels over you) that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed (the way) how (to write). If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (in his account with Him); and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him (in his account) with Him (its reward equal) from ten to seven hundred times to many more times: and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed (in his account) with Him, and if he intended to do it (a bad deed) and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed (in his account)."

A bad intention and actually doing bad will cause a bad deed to be written to one's book of deeds. All other combinations will result in good deeds being written into one's book of deeds.

Rev Hellfire

hairyheretic wrote:

Isn't there a line about the road to hell being paved with good intentions?

There may indeed be a road to hell paved with good intentions, my question is, is there anyone on it?

Does the fact that our witch-hunter believe they are doing good count in the face of the sin (murder) they have commited. Keeping in mind they do not believe commiting the sin.

Asiaprod

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Does the fact that our witch-hunter believe they are doing good count in the face of the sin (murder) they have commited. Keeping in mind they do not believe commiting the sin.

Unfortunately, yes. One could present a good case in court for them doing good and would probably win. According to their beliefs they did no wrong.

However that would be a religious argument. From a social perspective, yes they did wrong, probably Crimes Against Humanity, and are guilty.

Are they right or wrong in their actions....both.

I'm sure their being paid so well didn't hurt their frenzied quests, for one...

T-1111111111111

The problem is that a country law is not based on God's Law.
If - by God's Law - an adulterer should be killed or something, then they should be killed - and there is NO SIN in that whatsoever. Yet at the same time this cannot be done in a country that has a law which in not based on i.e. the Bible. So nobody would get killed for murdering someone or for committing adultery.

U asked what is a sin - well in this particular case a sin is to commit adultery (cos God fobade that) or a murdered, but to execute God's Law wud not be a sin but obeying God's Order. Simple as that.

"Crimes Against Humanity" are worth nothing on the Judgement Day if at the same time they are not sins by God's Law - however the majority of them wud be something that God forbade to do. Even the "smallest thing" (in our eyes) i.e. saying a lie about somebody, gossip, etc. is a "huge thing" by His Law, yet nobody will get punished for that, cos its not "a crime against humanity" by today's countries' laws.

hairyheretic

T-1111111111111 wrote:

"Crimes Against Humanity" are worth nothing on the Judgement Day if at the same time they are not sins by God's Law -

So if you take a passage about god being fine with slaughtering your enemies, burning down their lands and enslaving their survivors, or stoning to death someone who no longer chooses to worship them, then you're perfectly ok with that?

Asiaprod

T-1111111111111 wrote:

"Crimes Against Humanity" are worth nothing on the Judgement Day if at the same time they are not sins by God's Law - however the majority of them wud be something that God forbade to do.

So on judgement day how will your God treat people (his creations) who killed other people (who are also his creation)?

T-1111111111111

Hairy/Asia:

Its not about what I think, its not about what u think, its not about what some country law is about - in the end - all will be judged by Almighty Himself, the One True God Who has no Partners or a family, by His Law.

PS About killing one single person unjustly - it is said that its like killing the whole human race.

Now U judge it urselves how bad that is, and bad it is then to kill lots of people.

PS About me "being perfectly fine with...". Again, its not what I think or feel, its not my law, its God Law, He also is the ultimate Judge, so it is as He Wills, not as I will. I think that's pretty clear.

Here are some verses U might wana think about, at least read them.


Surah/Chapter 005 - Al-Mâ'idah. Verse 32.

English Translation (The Noble Qur'an)
For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) , but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

Surah/Chapter 004 - An-Nisâ. Verse 29.

English Translation (The Noble Qur'an)
O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you.

And yes, I am perfectly fine if it is by God's Law and Justice, even if I dont like it.

Asiaprod

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Hairy/Asia:

Its not about what I think, its not about what u think, its not about what some country law is about - in the end - all will be judged by Almighty Himself, the One True God Who has no Partners or a family, by His Law.

People like you frighten me.

T-1111111111111

Asiaprod wrote:

People like you frighten me.

Well, God has said that He would judge the people, not me, I'm just saying what He said. God is Loving and most Merciful, but He also is the Punisher.

Asiaprod

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Well, God has said that He would judge the people, not me, I'm just saying what He said.

Oh, no, no, you are not just saying what He said, you are threatening with what he said. There is a big difference.

T-1111111111111

Asiaprod wrote:

Oh, no, no, you are not just saying what He said, you are threatening with what he said. There is a big difference.

im not threatening, i u really think i am, quote my threat so i can see what is it that u consider a threat.

mloc

I believe the word you is spelled you, not u.

Dude, you're way too over indoctrined. Don't try and use the "God made me do it " excuse, to be fair, that sh*t just don't hold water since the middle ages.

hairyheretic

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Its not about what I think, its not about what u think, its not about what some country law is about

Actually, it is, since that law is what will affect our day to day lives. And what you, I, or anyone else thinks will influence our day to day actions. So, yes, thats what it is about.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

- in the end - all will be judged by Almighty Himself, the One True God Who has no Partners or a family, by His Law.

Thats your belief. Not everyone shares it. Why should someone who does not share your belief have to deal with your gods concepts of right and wrong.

Because we don't all share the same beliefs, we have the law of the land, as laws agreed that all respect equally, regardless of belief.

In theory at least

T-1111111111111 wrote:

PS About killing one single person unjustly - it is said that its like killing the whole human race.

And its the justly part that gives the wriggle room, isn't it? "Yes, we killed him, but according to this page in our holy book, god says its ok."

Sorry, that just doesn't wash with me.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Now U judge it urselves how bad that is, and bad it is then to kill lots of people.

I don't like killing, or indeed any kind of violence, but I acknowledge that sometimes it may be necessary. "Because god says so" does not, in my oppinion, constitute necessity.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

PS About me "being perfectly fine with...". Again, its not what I think or feel, its not my law, its God Law, He also is the ultimate Judge, so it is as He Wills, not as I will. I think that's pretty clear.

Its clear as your belief. Not all share that belief though.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Here are some verses U might wana think about, at least read them.


Surah/Chapter 005 - Al-Mâ'idah. Verse 32.

English Translation (The Noble Qur'an)
For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) , but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

Surah/Chapter 004 - An-Nisâ. Verse 29.

English Translation (The Noble Qur'an)
O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/26/afghan.convert/

So this man, who was under threat of death for converting from islam to christianity, what of him? What of those who want to kill him in the name of their religion?

People, of any belief, are quite capable of taking isolated passages from their holy books, and using that to justify their own intolerence and bigotry.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

And yes, I am perfectly fine if it is by God's Law and Justice, even if I dont like it.

If you don't like it, how can you be fine with it?

_patchouli

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I’d be curious to get peoples view on a matter a few of us had a discussion about, namely does a person sin by the nature of their actions or their intention.
..........................
I would argue that they are not, since they did so in the belief they where committing good although the result of their action was evil.

ie. you can never unknowingly sin.

I suppose if sin=conscience, if a person's conscience is clear, then they haven't sinned.
But then some people are more "conscientious", more introspective than others...

Personally I don't believe in "sin" anyway, but that aside,
I think that the word "sin" is actually devoid of any real meaning today.
In the past it's meaning was inextricably tied to doctrine. Like the "seven deadly sins", "mortal sin" etc.

Today, it is simply another word for "doing wrong".
And we could talk forever about what is considered right and wrong....

T-1111111111111

mloc wrote:

I believe the word you is spelled you, not u.

Dude, you're way too over indoctrined. Don't try and use the "God made me do it " excuse, to be fair, that sh*t just don't hold water since the middle ages.

We will see about that.
I, u and everybody else, none of us will life 4ever, rite?

T-1111111111111

hairyheretic wrote:

If you don't like it, how can you be fine with it?

Since I have work to do, for now Il answer only this question.
I have to be fine with it, otherwise I would be denying the Message.
And also, I would be making my own law. So if that's the case, then imagine everybody making their own law - in other words, they would be chaning God's Law, and that's exactly (by the Muslim) belief what happened to Judaism and Christianity - some Jews and Christians changed part of God's Message in the Torah and the Gospel, that's the main reason the Qur'an was sent down to humanity and the jinns as the final message and since then, none of the books in the whole world has the message like the Qur'an.

In the end, if I don't like it, or I don't understand it, but I'm convinced that is it from God, then I follow it. Take any field of science for example, eventhough there are many experts in their fields, they still can admit they there are many things their either don't understand or have no or very little knowledge about.

And yes, of course, I understand that we understand each other that that's by my belief.

BrianCalgary

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I’d be curious to get peoples view on a matter a few of us had a discussion about, namely does a person sin by the nature of their actions or their intention.

For example to pick a nice historical example of a witch-finder, and for the purposes of this discussion we shall assume this is an individual who believes they are doing the lords work. Would they be damned for their deeds (which where barbaric in the extreme) in spite of not knowingly committing a sin?

I would argue that they are not, since they did so in the belief they where committing good although the result of their action was evil.

ie. you can never unknowingly sin.

I think that they will be one of the surprised bunch. Even though they went about thinking that they were doing good by removing witches, they must have missed the part that says don't murder. For that they would have to be accountable.

Jesus didn't kill anyone for their beliefs or practices. He condemned those beliefs and practices, understanding that the day would come when people would be judged.

Wibbs

T-1111111111111 wrote:

PS About killing one single person unjustly - it is said that its like killing the whole human race.

A passage often trotted out. Fair enough. It doesn't stop there though.

English Translation (The Noble Qur'an)
For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) , but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

It's good the whole passage is quoted for clarity. You will notice that death is OK for "manslaughter". Fair enough, you'll get a few takers there. Now the bit about "corruption in the earth". It's also translated as "spreading mischief in the land". http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.032
What does that mean? That's a very grey and wide ranging area(also no mention of adultery). There's the worry right there(plus he seems to be addressing the Jews?).


AFAIR Both Christianity and Buddhism share the notion of the intent being as bad or nearly as bad as the act of the sin itself. Was there not a Jesus quote along the lines of "if you look at another man's wife you have already commited adultery in your heart"?

T-1111111111111

Wibbs wrote:

AFAIR Both Christianity and Buddhism share the notion of the intent being as bad or nearly as bad as the act of the sin itself. Was there not a Jesus quote along the lines of "if you look at another man's wife you have already commited adultery in your heart"?

I can't say what Jesus pbuh, said or didn't say, except from what's written in the Qur'an (that he said), but here's something that might be interesting to you. It's an authentic Hadith from the Prophet saws:


Vol 8, Book 74. Asking Permission.
Hadith 260. (Shahi Bukhari)

Narrated By Ibn 'Abbas: I have not seen a thing resembling 'lamam' (minor sins) than what Abu Huraira 'narrated from the Prophet who said "Allah has written for Adam's son his share of adultery which he commits inevitably. The adultery of the eyes is the sight (to gaze at a forbidden thing), the adultery of the tongue is the talk, and the inner self wishes and desires and the private parts testify all this or deny it."

Wibbs

Right so, that's three in agreement on sin and intent. Mohammed, Jesus, and Buddha. I would assume the Jewish notion would be along the same lines. The Hindu idea I can't quite remember, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it was similar. Wow now that makes a nice change. Consensus. There's hope yet

T-1111111111111

Wibbs wrote:

Right so, that's three in agreement on sin and intent. Mohammed, Jesus, and Buddha. I would assume the Jewish notion would be along the same lines. The Hindu idea I can't quite remember, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it was similar. Wow now that makes a nice change. Consensus. There's hope yet

There's hope yet, I agree with that.

BTW, Jesus and Muhammed, peace upon them both were pure Muslims (= sincerely submitting to One True God, Who has no partners or equal or family or a son or a daughter or a wife, etc.), but I wouldn't know about Buddha.

Asiaprod

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I wouldn't know about Buddha.

the Buddha taught that it is the intent. I believe that the Hindus believe likewise. Wow, we do have consensus.

UU

Actually regarding "sin", I recently read an extract about an alternative meaning of the word "sin" and how it is greatly misunderstood. I found it rather interesting as it gives one a different way of viewing sins.

According to Christian teachings, the normal collective state of humanity is one of "original sin". Sin is a word that has been greatly misunderstood and misinterpretated. Literally translated from the ancient Greek word hamartia (ἁμαρτία), the language in which the New Testament was written, 'to sin' means to 'miss the mark', as an archer who misses the target, so 'to sin' means to miss the point of human existence. It means to live unskillfully, blindly, and thus suffer and cause suffering. Again, the term, stripped of its cultural baggage and misinterpretations, points to the dsyfunction inherit in the human condition.

Actually, Wikipedia give a good page about sin and discuss it in each of the major world faiths: Link: Sin