hand from the Macau 1k

ZZR1100

blinds 100/200 .every1 involved has been playing tight and no1 has made any moves yet..mid pos limps / button limps / sb limps / bb raises to 600.
all call .. flop T43 two diamonds.. sb cks/ BB bets 600 / MP folds ? button calls. SB raises allin for around 9K.. BB has 33 in the hole giving him a set > Action ???

NickyOD

ZZR1100 wrote:

blinds 100/200 .every1 involved has been playing tight and no1 has made any moves yet..mid pos limps / button limps / sb limps / bb raises to 600.
all call .. flop T43 two diamonds.. sb cks/ BB bets 600 / MP folds ? button calls. SB raises allin for around 9K.. BB has 33 in the hole giving him a set > Action ???

Call in a heartbeat, but the raise out the BB is horrible and the bet on the flop is too small.

Hectorjelly

I agree with Nicky, the raise preflop is bad. The lead out small is kind of cool though, you induced a raise now call, allthough I suspect this wouldnt be posted if the SB didnt have 44/TT.

mdwexford

the bet on the flop is definitely too small with 3 other people in the hand, your giving 5/1 to anyone with a flush draw, if there is no re-raise and a diamond hits the turn you could be in trouble. but the way its being described i agree someone must have a bigger set, but i NEVER agree with dropping a set on the flop. if someone has a higher set tough luck, you were fated not to win the tournament. you have to call with the 3's

Goodluck2me

lose to a flsuh draw? call and ask gus hanson for help...

NickyOD

mdwexford wrote:

i agree someone must have a bigger set, but i NEVER agree with dropping a set on the flop

huzzuh?

mdwexford

but the way its being described i agree someone must have a bigger set, but i NEVER agree with dropping a set on the flop

???????????

Hectorjelly

mdwexford wrote:

but the way its being described i agree someone must have a bigger set, but i NEVER agree with dropping a set on the flop

???????????

this makes no sense

Hectorjelly

mdwexford wrote:

the bet on the flop is definitely too small with 3 other people in the hand, your giving 5/1 to anyone with a flush draw, if there is no re-raise and a diamond hits the turn you could be in trouble.

We dont have to go broke to a flush if that happens, and a small bet like that will often induce a raise from a flush draw.

Lplate

Horrible raise from the BB, SB range for this bet is more likely flush draw/open ender/2 pair, with 44 possible, TT unlikely IMO. Easy call against that range. I like the flop bet, a lot of people will read that as a blocker and put you on a draw. Dosen't look like your style of play Dave. Were you SB here?

mdwexford

Hectorjelly wrote:

this makes no sense

what i mean is it probably wouldnt have been posted if someone hadnt got a higher set.

on a separate matter im just saying i dont agree with dropping sets, ive seen ppl who argue you can get away from bottom set but i dont buy it

mdwexford

Hectorjelly wrote:

We dont have to go broke to a flush if that happens, and a small bet like that will often induce a raise from a flush draw.

so just because you can get away from the hand means you should price in the flush and straight draws??? unless you're fairly certain of a re-raise i dont like the bet. i prefer a 1/2 to 3/4 of the pot size bet

ZZR1100

Lplate wrote:

Horrible raise from the BB, SB range for this bet is more likely flush draw/open ender/2 pair, with 44 possible, TT unlikely IMO. Easy call against that range. I like the flop bet, a lot of people will read that as a blocker and put you on a draw. Dosen't look like your style of play Dave. Were you SB here?

actually i was the button in this hand with 99 .dave masters was the SB.he had TT in the hole and put 1 of us on a flush draw and decided to end it there and then. the BB folded his 33.his reasoning was that dave was playing tight.i had to act after him.dave was either gone mad with a flush draw or had a set as 2P was unlikly with that flop.
btw dave didnt show TT but his arguements afterwards and the way he was playing suggest he was telling the truth.personaly i think it was a great fold.

Sangre

I don't how anyone could fold a set on that board.

Also limped around to you on the button and you didn't raise with 99? Could have picked up some dead money there and then.

Lplate

99 good player button after 1 mp limper smooth calls. TT SB good player after 2 smooth calls smooth calls . That's one tight mf of a table.

Lplate

ZZR1100 wrote:

btw dave didnt show TT but his arguements afterwards and the way he was playing suggest he was telling the truth.personaly i think it was a great fold.

Sorry Dave but I disagree. Allowing for the fact that "you had to be there" it's extremely hard to put villain on overset there. Bad fold in most spots IMO.

mdwexford

dreadful fold 99% of the time, you cannot drop a set on that board imo

dont understand with limping with 9s and 10s in those spots either, surely you have to raise. more than likely gonna be over cards on the flop and with 3 other ppl in the hand you wont have a clue where you stand.

NickyOD

knowing that its Dave I don't think its a dreadful fold. A player like Dave would usually (but not always) only push in this spot wanting a call, I doubt he would play a pair and a flush draw or a straight flush draw the same way, but I still couldn't fold bottom set against him. and in the unlikely event that I did I'd keep it to myself.

ZZR1100

Sangre wrote:

I don't how anyone could fold a set on that board.

Also limped around to you on the button and you didn't raise with 99? Could have picked up some dead money there and then.

i knew this would be picked up and you are right but i had just lost 1/4 of my stack the previous hand and need time to gather myself so i figured i would play the 99 passivly here..

but the way its being described i agree someone must have a bigger set, but i NEVER agree with dropping a set on the flop.

If he MUST have a set why must you call??.i have never dropped a set myself but this set of cirumstanses got me thinking.
i aggree that droping a set on the flop 99% of the time is not correct but on this table and the way every1 was playing at the time (rocks) including dave masters it seemed to be the correct play.333 had to put in 9+k into the pot to call for his tournament life with a starting stack of 10k with a very strong chance that masters had an overset.BBs 600 bet on the flop is weak cont bet or a trap.my call could also mean a set.now what is dave going to come over the top with here for 9+k.


"but I still couldn't fold bottom set against him. and in the unlikely event that I did I'd keep it to myself."
yeah i aggree . i think every1 at the table sat up on their chair thinking - if this guy willl fold a set he will fold a lot-

valor

but the way its being described i agree someone must have a bigger set, but i NEVER agree with dropping a set on the flop.


His meaning is not that someone MUST have a bigger set given the action, but that someone MUST have a bigger set because the hand was posted

ZZR1100

valor wrote:

but the way its being described i agree someone must have a bigger set, but i NEVER agree with dropping a set on the flop.


His meaning is not that someone MUST have a bigger set given the action, but that someone MUST have a bigger set because the hand was posted

i think he would have said that someone must have a bigger set because the hand was posted instead of the way its (action) being described if he thought that...

mdwexford

mdwexford wrote:

what i mean is it probably wouldnt have been posted if someone hadnt got a higher set.

on a separate matter im just saying i dont agree with dropping sets, ive seen ppl who argue you can get away from bottom set but i dont buy it

i did say it already. i posted that last night
valor is right, thats what i meant, sorry for not being clear

MrPillowTalk

lol Dave had Q2diamonds that hand.

Iceman78

Q2 diamonds sounds much more like what Dave would push with in this situation. not a chance he had trip 10s.

Hectorjelly

Theres two lessons to be learnt from this hand. 1 dont fold sets, and 2 dont believe what a poker player says he has after the hand unless he shows you

Ste05

MrPillowTalk wrote:

lol Dave had Q2diamonds that hand.

LOL POTY!!!

ZZR1100

Hectorjelly wrote:

Theres two lessons to be learnt from this hand. 1 dont fold sets, and 2 dont believe what a poker player says he has after the hand unless he shows you

and 3 dont belive when a poker player tells you he had Q2d when he "knows i am on a flush draw" and puts 9k into a 2k pot on semi bluff with 7 outs

MrPillowTalk

ZZR1100 wrote:

and 3 dont belive when a poker player tells you he had Q2d when he "knows i am on a flush draw" and puts 9k into a 2k pot on semi bluff with 7 outs

Honestly, he told me about the hand in the pub, and I think he showed Dave Callaghan.

Where is ppp to confirm or deny.

Norwich Fan Rob

knowing dave i would suggest Q2d is far more likely than TT

Hectorjelly

If he had Q2d he played it very well, if he had TT he played it awfully. I think its far more likey he had a flush draw.

pppspecial

queen 2 diamonds. ive got a very tight image on the table and have realised early on that raiser will lay down a hand to keep himself alive in the tournament. he has told a few on the table this is his first big 1. didnt realise he was so strong but knew he was never calling.when he showed me i nearly shat myself but told him for his sake it was a good fold. i liked the guy and didnt want to send him on tilt. yes never believe what a poker player tells you unless u see it for urself.
just to note i had my earphones on and after i had check raised him ive taken my phones off and said i didnt like the flush draw. i wasnt telling a lie.im going broke here 9 times out off ten. i was extremley lucky but again i wouldnt off moved against a more experienced player.

Ste05

pppspecial wrote:

i liked the guy and didnt want to send him on tilt.

Weak...

MrPillowTalk

pppspecial wrote:

i liked the guy and didnt want to send him on tilt.

lol yeah thats why you didnt show, or maybe it was because the table was folding everything and somehow people were thinking a set is no good against you.

ZZR1100

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Honestly, he told me about the hand in the pub, and I think he showed Dave Callaghan.

Where is ppp to confirm or deny.

he showed nobody and had his hand is mucked before the set was shown, but its irrelevant what Dave had in this any case .the point is if you have a set of 3s in this set of circumstances what do u put your opponent on. If you say I have a set and I should never fold a set on the flop then I think you are wrong.
its not a cash game and if you think its even a 50/50 in a big tournament folding is the better option imho.Maybe im wrong but i havn't yet heard any arguemment to convince me otherwise.
btw it wasn't me who folded the set but the fold got me thinking about the possibilty of folding a set on the flop..

and dave is fosimho

mdwexford

i cant see how you can fold a set on the flop, how do you put a player on a higher set rather than an over pair to the board for instance.

i heard about george geary folding a set of 3's in the irish open to a single raise
on a board like 3-6-10 or something similar. he mucked 3-3 face up and the guy showed him 10-10, unreal

ZZR1100

mdwexford wrote:

i cant see how you can fold a set on the flop, how do you put a player on a higher set rather than an over pair to the board for instance.

i heard about george geary folding a set of 3's in the irish open to a single raise
on a board like 3-6-10 or something similar. he mucked 3-3 face up and the guy showed him 10-10, unreal

an overpair here was very unlikly as SB had 2 chances to raise preflop with 3 other players in the pot.

good fold george

bops

if you flop a set and your gut tells you to fold...
...you should fold!!

there's more that simple math at work here as you all know...

the bottom line is at best (for u) they were on a flush draw and 1 in 3 times your great call sends you packin anyway...

Wombatman

pppspecial wrote:

queen 2 diamonds. ive got a very tight image on the table and have realised early on that raiser will lay down a hand to keep himself alive in the tournament. he has told a few on the table this is his first big 1. didnt realise he was so strong but knew he was never calling.when he showed me i nearly shat myself but told him for his sake it was a good fold. i liked the guy and didnt want to send him on tilt. yes never believe what a poker player tells you unless u see it for urself.
just to note i had my earphones on and after i had check raised him ive taken my phones off and said i didnt like the flush draw. i wasnt telling a lie.im going broke here 9 times out off ten. i was extremley lucky but again i wouldnt off moved against a more experienced player.

Were there not two players still in the hand when you pushed?

Waylander

bops wrote:

if you flop a set and your gut tells you to fold...
...you should fold!!

there's more that simple math at work here as you all know...

the bottom line is at best (for u) they were on a flush draw and 1 in 3 times your great call sends you packin anyway...

So you should fold because you only win 2 out 3 hands? There is no way there was a 10 10 out there in that hand, 4 4 is a possibility, but 10 10 would have raised preflop.

MrPillowTalk

If Dave had TT there he goes down considerably in my estimation of his playing ability.

Seeing as hes a good mate of mine and he off hand in the pub tells me of a guy who folded and showed the set and pissed himself laughing about it I can safely say he had Q2

Hectorjelly

bops wrote:

if you flop a set and your gut tells you to fold...
...you should fold!!

there's more that simple math at work here as you all know...

the bottom line is at best (for u) they were on a flush draw and 1 in 3 times your great call sends you packin anyway...

This is bad advice, and incorrect. Since you have a set the flush draw will only win 1 in 4 times.

connie147

pppspecial wrote:

queen 2 diamonds. ive got a very tight image on the table and have realised early on that raiser will lay down a hand to keep himself alive in the tournament. he has told a few on the table this is his first big 1. didnt realise he was so strong but knew he was never calling.when he showed me i nearly shat myself but told him for his sake it was a good fold. i liked the guy and didnt want to send him on tilt. yes never believe what a poker player tells you unless u see it for urself.
just to note i had my earphones on and after i had check raised him ive taken my phones off and said i didnt like the flush draw. i wasnt telling a lie.im going broke here 9 times out off ten. i was extremley lucky but again i wouldnt off moved against a more experienced player.

You say you wouldnt make that move against an experienced player which the BB wasnt, but wasnt there an experieced player after calling the pre-flop raise on the button,then he called the post flop raise before you went all-in.What did you put him on? Flop 10d-4d-3s.Was it not very possible he had hit a small set?

Gholimoli

connie147 wrote:

You say you wouldnt make that move against an experienced player which the BB wasnt, but wasnt there an experieced player after calling the pre-flop raise on the button,then he called the post flop raise before you went all-in.What did you put him on? Flop 10d-4d-3s.Was it not very possible he had hit a small set?

possible but not very possible .if he was exprianced then he would know to raise here with a set with both a str and flush draws there.

pppspecial

no he would have raised. i put him on a middle pair or tp not an overpair. he was short stacked and the 2 off us could send him packing. even if he had the flush draw he wouldnt put his tourny on the line for it. he is to much off a rock. great player.
also the previous round utg qq i call raised by utg+1 around 2 sb who calls also.flop comes k high it goes check check bet reraise i fold call. king comes on turn it goes bet call river put out a flush check check.showdown sb has kq raiser has ak and wins 3600. that hand gave me all the info i needed.

connie147

Gholimoli wrote:

possible but not very possible .if he was exprianced then he would know to raise here with a set with both a str and flush draws there.

Gholi, for once,I dont agree with you.This has been a rock table so after the raise PF,there is no straight draw to worry about, the flush draw is of course a worry,but not every experienced good player will reraise here to end the pot everytime.(ie on the button with a set)