arguements for evolution etc

condra

Hey guys.

I often find myself stuck for words when trying to portray my views to religious people and would like some help please if possible.

I would like to be able to put forward some strong arguements in favour of the theory of evolution, but also be able to pick holes in The Bible, religion, creationism etc.

I know some basic principles of religion, christianity, politics, science, etc but have not any expertise in any specific area of same.

I know its quite general but any short sentences which you find help your arguements would be fantastic.

Here are some of the key points I try to make:
Evolution can be observed [melanism]
Religion is a major part of the earths history of war and has a strong part to play in human rights violations.
The Bible has many contradictions, the Bible has been edited etc... [I really must actually read The Bible some time!]

Anyways, thanks for any tips ..

Asiaprod

womoma wrote:

I would like to be able to put forward some strong arguements in favour of the theory of evolution, but also be able to pick holes in The Bible, religion, creationism etc.

Hi womoma, thats a tall order. Well for a start, here is 145 pages of arguments, rebuttals, insanity and suffering.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=316566

The rest you can learn right here by asking more specific questions.

Zillah

You would like an argument for evolution?

1 - Genes exist.
2 - Genes dictate traits.
3 - Traits determine survival of the creature and therefore survival of the genes through reproduction.
4 - Genes, and therefore the traits they rule, can change between generations.
5 - Those that change for the better survive and pass on their genes, those that change for the worse die and don't reproduce.

=> Evolution is an inescapable conclusion given some basic scientific facts.

If the fool you are speaking with refutes this, shake your head and go laugh at him with your atheist friends. Should you really wish for a beating, engage in a long futile debate. If your opponent is anyway sane the argument will eventually come down to him saying something akin to "Its magic!".

Variations include "Its a mystery!", "I just have faith!" and the endlessly fallacious "You can't prove I'm wrong!"

talkorigins.org is usually useful in that kind of thing

Dades

Zillah wrote:

If the fool you are speaking with refutes this, shake your head and go laugh at him with your atheist friends.

To be fair, I don't think your friends need be atheist to have a chuckle. It's not a god/ no-god debate. Creationists really stand alone here. Hence I prefer to avoid the evolution thing - most religious folk don't dispute this anyway.

womoma, why people don't believe in gods is down to them. I suggest you ask yourself why you don't believe, and try and break it down from there. There are no "trump cards" to make someone heed you. People believe in religion for reasons other than it's a logical conclusion.

I trust you'll keep you arguments to yourself unless relevant to the conversation. A proselytizing atheist is as bad as a proselytizing theist!

Zombrex

womoma wrote:

Hey guys.

I often find myself stuck for words when trying to portray my views to religious people and would like some help please if possible.

I would like to be able to put forward some strong arguements in favour of the theory of evolution, but also be able to pick holes in The Bible, religion, creationism etc.

I know some basic principles of religion, christianity, politics, science, etc but have not any expertise in any specific area of same.

I know its quite general but any short sentences which you find help your arguements would be fantastic.

Here are some of the key points I try to make:
Evolution can be observed [melanism]
Religion is a major part of the earths history of war and has a strong part to play in human rights violations.
The Bible has many contradictions, the Bible has been edited etc... [I really must actually read The Bible some time!]

Anyways, thanks for any tips ..

Arguing with Creationists is a bit like arguing with a child, it is rather pointless and you cannot "win" the argument because they are not thinking rationially in the first place.

For example if you say to a young earth creationist that the Earth is well over 10,000 years old because we can use radiometeric dating to show it is the YEC will simply list off the known times that radiometeric dating has failed and then say that such dates cannot be trusted. If you then say that radiometeric dating only failes >5% of the time, and the other 95% of the time it is correct the YEC will simply say that is what the anti-Bible atheist scientific community want you to think, and in reality all radiometeric dating is potenetially just as flawed as the 5% that do actually fail.

The thing is these people are not interested in actually discovering the truth about the universe, they are only interested in muddying the waters enough that they can feel confortable in still clinging onto a literal belief in their accient religous texts. Trying to show that they are wrong will never be accepted because to them they can't be wrong.

Probably the smartest thing to do is not get involved. Unfortunately I don't take my own advice, as the 144 pages of posts on the Christianity forum shows

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

Arguing with Creationists is a bit like arguing with a child, it is rather pointless and you cannot "win" the argument because they are not thinking rationially in the first place.

Probably the smartest thing to do is not get involved. Unfortunately I don't take my own advice, as the 144 pages of posts on the Christianity forum shows

It has that whole "picking a scab" appeal, though. And just as mother said, it hasn't got any better.

Something that's worth noting, if you did want to argue with Creationists, is that you may be arguing with someone who can't fit what you're saying into their frame of reference at all (for example, they may be mentally incapable of imagining a cause without an active agent). If that is the case, you will not ever "win" your argument with them, because they have no way of processing what you're saying.

cordially,
Scofflaw

condra

Thanks everyone for the replies. Lots of food for thought there.

Asiaprod- thanks for the link- Ill have a gander.

Zillah thanks for the reply. Im still astonished at how few people can actually grasp the concept of natural selection. Its frustrating!
Sometimes I wonder wether or not people are capable of grasping the concept, or if it is simply that they are unwilling, or scared, to challenge their own beliefs.

The big changing point for me was when I said to myself:
"OK Im gonna start with a Blank sheet, and if there is a God, he wont be SO cruel that he will punish me for questioning his existance in the first place" ... I think this is a big early hurdle for religious people, and unfortunatly one that most are unable to jump.
Perhaps arguing is pointless with any religious person who is unable to at least start with a blank sheet, or a reasonable and rational mentality.

bluewolf thanks for the link. nice site.

The Atheist - believe me, Im not a proselytizing atheist, well not usually. I often find myself defending my beliefs and to do this successfully Im trying to arm myself with knowledge.
Regarding converting other people, or changing their point of view, Im not sure if I would agree that

A proselytizing atheist is as bad as a proselytizing theist!

Im of the opinion that religion is harmfull to humanity.
Not only that but I think its no coincidence that there is a link between religion and the right wing politics, racism, bigotry, sensorship, propaganda, human rights violations, unethical foreign policy etc etc we see in the world.
Religion fits in as a piece of a large puzzle which is dividing mankind and preventing us from moving forward together, peacefully towards a better world.

wicknight -

Arguing with Creationists is a bit like arguing with a child, it is rather pointless and you cannot "win" the argument because they are not thinking rationially in the first place.

Youre probably right.

Scofflaw I think youre right. Religious people are stupid Just kidding.
Some people are able to grasp different concepts better than others, and unfortunatly a lot of scientific theories and concepts go over the heads of some people, both atheist and religious people included.

Anyways, thanks again guys for the input. This whole subject is something which is causing me a lot of angst at the moment.