SCW vs Rob Andrew

Trojan

If I were England I'd be going with SCW. Your thoughts?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4781793.stm

toomevara

Disagree on that one Trojan. Woody is far too devisive a figure in respect of the clubs in England at the moment. Given the unprecedented marathon season ahead of us, and the inevitable rates of player attrition that will ensue, player release is going to become a huge issue. Andrew could be an excellent means of bridging the rapidly growing gulf between the RFU and the clubs in England and facilitating some sort of modus vivendum between the two.

...and on a purely personal and utterly biased, partisan and wholly illogical level, Woodward is an absolute cock who should be flogged through the street for his shameful mismanagement of the England team in the aftermath of the '03 WC and the near destruction of the proud Lions tradition....rugby is well shot of him...

Sangre

I thought SCW turned his nose up at rugby?

toomevara

Andrew got it. Good news for England I think.

Crash

Best news possible for em - woodward would've continued to further snub clubs methinks.

Amz

Sir Clive was never going to get the job anyway, as far as I know he only had one supporter amongst the crowd who decided on it.

He's leaving Southampton regardless. Don't think he'll be missed there either.

Maybe he'll give Steve Staunton a hand?

MarVeL

Now now Amz! Does that not count as defamation of the FAI?

Goodluck2me

how can you say rugby is best without the only coach to bring a northern hemisphere side to a world cup and win it? i dont care if he thought 4-4-2 was the best formation for rugby and played tony blair at out-half afterthat achievement he has shwon his class. he wasnt bothered after it. lions was plan gone awry.

Amz

Any coach could have won a world cup with the squad of players he had available to him. He's an arrogant little man, who has delusions of his own ability. He was shown up to be incapable during the Lions tour last year and I think that that correct decision was made.

Amazotheamazing

Amz wrote:

Any coach could have won a world cup with the squad of players he had available to him. He's an arrogant little man, who has delusions of his own ability. He was shown up to be incapable during the Lions tour last year and I think that that correct decision was made.

Can't agree, NZ have had equally great squads going to successive world cups and have singularly failed to win since 1987, and the subsequent fall of English rugby has indicated just how shallow the very top level of talent in England is. Woodward's England (Grand Slam misses aside) dominated Northern Hemishpere rugby for at least 3 years prior to the World Cup, the grand slam game where they whipped us (2003) was one of the best performances I've ever seen from an NH side.

Woodward's England didn't just beat teams, often they humilated them. Remember a 13 man England holding NZ out in NZ, unthinkable really, considering NZ have lost only a handful of games at home since the game went pro.

There's a lot of revisionist history going on about Woodward, but for a time he coached the best team in the world.

The Lions fiasco was a disaster, but it was (imo) a case of too many cooks. If Woodward had stayed in charge of England during the previous 6n's, he would have seen just how passed it some of his WC team had become, he lacked the experience of seeing them in training and probably thought he could get one last hurrah from his golden team. Also, in bringing too many players, the selection process was dominated by off field politics.

toomevara

Amazotheamazing wrote:

the subsequent fall of English rugby has indicated just how shallow the very top level of talent in England is.

Wouldn't entirely agree on that point. I think there's a huge depth of talent in England, it is, however, routinely mis-mananged at international level. A recent survey of England's elite players found that the vast majority believed they were being coached far more effectively and efficiently at club level. There's something radically wrong there.

I'd say, post '03, that Woodward's, and subsequently Robinson's, selection policies have verged on the suicidal and done England no favours in building a squad to realistically mount a defence of their WC. I'd also say that the packed playing calendar, the attritional, grinding nature of rugby played in the premiership, combined with the ever present threat of relegation leads to exhaustion and burnout among elite English players of a kind not seen in any other league.

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Woodward's England didn't just beat teams, often they humilated them. Remember a 13 man England holding NZ out in NZ, unthinkable really, considering NZ have lost only a handful of games at home since the game went pro.

An amazing achievement, and that particular display was absolutely awesome, but I dont credit woodward for that victory, I credit Dallaglio/Johnson/Hill/Back...four absolutely awesome players who for me were the spine of the woodward era and the key to its success. Frankly those guys could have been coached by Julian Clary and they would have won that world cup.

Amazotheamazing wrote:

The Lions fiasco was a disaster, but it was (imo) a case of too many cooks. If Woodward had stayed in charge of England during the previous 6n's, he would have seen just how passed it some of his WC team had become, he lacked the experience of seeing them in training and probably thought he could get one last hurrah from his golden team. Also, in bringing too many players, the selection process was dominated by off field politics.

The problem with the Lions for me was that it quickly ceased to be about the rugby, rather it was all about Woodward. He was the story...The spinning, the obfuscation, the lies, the player and media manipulation, Alastair bleedin' Campbell ferchrissake!!! Incidentally nothing new in any of that, all Hallmarks of his England tenure. He was a smoke and mirrors man, a snake oil salesman, and I'd agree that there are those who, after the fact, are now revising their opinions down, but I'm not one of 'em, I never rated the guy and I'm glad, as a rugby fan, that we wont be seing him anywhere near the game in the forseeable future.

Amazotheamazing

If there's so much depth in English rugby, why are so many other nationalities playing in the GP? look at Reddan, couldn't buy a game for Munster, moves to Wasps and gets plaudits left, right and centre, Staunton has shown up England's second choice outhalf (Goode) twice last season when Wasps played Leicester, O'Connor 3rd choice 7 for Ireland, is rated one of the best 7's in the GP, Casey, nowhere near the Irish squad and yet he's rated as one of the best locks in the GP, Bracken, dropped by Connacht, becomes a first choice starter for Wasps by the end of last season. Chabal, considered one of the best 8's in the GP, nowhere near the french squad (and badly shown up in Thomond Park. Hodgeson, considered currently the best outhalf, regularly falls apart for the English team. Also, English clubs have never dominated the HEC as much as a country with their player numbers should, considering the numbers actually playing in England.

I agree England had a great squad for the WC, but so did France, Aus and NZ, great squads don't win World Cups, great squads properly managed win World Cups. Even SA had some great players but an absolute nutter as a coach.

Goodluck2me

i agree, althought the point has to be made that they have a larger number of games and teams in the GP and they therefore need more players. France have a huge league and fill it mainly with French players so they have a huge depth of players yet fail to hit on the international level too. they need a top class manager, although laporte has been pretty good for them over the years he has never instilled the confidence in them that woodward did when they beat NZ and Aus in their own back yard. Good teams need confidence, NEw Zealand were on fire with confidence when the lions played them and to be honest you couldnt have picked a non-NZ all-world team that would have beaten them at the time imo. Woodward was a great coach.

toomevara

Amazotheamazing wrote:

If there's so much depth in English rugby, why are so many other nationalities playing in the GP? look at Reddan, couldn't buy a game for Munster, moves to Wasps and gets plaudits left, right and centre, Staunton has shown up England's second choice outhalf (Goode) twice last season when Wasps played Leicester, O'Connor 3rd choice 7 for Ireland, is rated one of the best 7's in the GP, Casey, nowhere near the Irish squad and yet he's rated as one of the best locks in the GP, Bracken, dropped by Connacht, becomes a first choice starter for Wasps by the end of last season. Chabal, considered one of the best 8's in the GP, nowhere near the french squad (and badly shown up in Thomond Park. Hodgeson, considered currently the best outhalf, regularly falls apart for the English team. Also, English clubs have never dominated the HEC as much as a country with their player numbers should, considering the numbers actually playing in England.

I agree England had a great squad for the WC, but so did France, Aus and NZ, great squads don't win World Cups, great squads properly managed win World Cups. Even SA had some great players but an absolute nutter as a coach.

Hmmm, some excellent points there Amazo. Would say though that the reason theres a real foreign legion thing going on in England is that the top clubs are so pissed off by the fact that their elite players spend so much time on England duty that they bring in foreign cover or actively eschew the english option when they can get a bok or a puma for a knockdown price. Look at leicester and Bath, there's actually a disincentive to bringing good players through the academies or ranks if they're not going to get the fruits of it. Interestingly the only team who fielded a fully english qualified first XV last year, at any point, were Newcastle. think that tells you a little about where Andrew's priorities lie.

Would have to agree with your excellent points re: staunton/Reddan. Re: casey I'm hopelessly biased, think he's a wonderful player who for a whole host of reasons, many not genuine rugby ones, isnt in the squad, but should be! Chabal is a fantastic player by any yardstick, was exposed badly in thomond because frankly the rest of his pack bottled it and left him to try and take on the munster 8 on his own. Funnily enough I would love to see chabal in a red jersey as I think he's got that intangible Munster 'thing' going on.

Also excellent point re: calibre of managerial material at last WC, may have to have a slight rethink (though it could stick in my throat and kill me in which case I'm holding you responsible for my untimely demise!)...I mean straueli, bloody hell...a mentalist of the first water even dallaglio, johnson et al would have struggled.....

Amazotheamazing

toomevara wrote:

Hmmm, some excellent points there Amazo. Would say though that the reason theres a real foreign legion thing going on in England is that the top clubs are so pissed off by the fact that their elite players spend so much time on England duty that they bring in foreign cover or actively eschew the english option when they can get a bok or a puma for a knockdown price. Look at leicester and Bath, there's actually a disincentive to bringing good players through the academies or ranks if they're not going to get the fruits of it. Interestingly the only team who fielded a fully english qualified first XV last year, at any point, were Newcastle. think that tells you a little about where Andrew's priorities lie.

Would have to agree with your excellent points re: staunton/Reddan. Re: casey I'm hopelessly biased, think he's a wonderful player who for a whole host of reasons, many not genuine rugby ones, isnt in the squad, but should be! Chabal is a fantastic player by any yardstick, was exposed badly in thomond because frankly the rest of his pack bottled it and left him to try and take on the munster 8 on his own. Funnily enough I would love to see chabal in a red jersey as I think he's got that intangible Munster 'thing' going on.

Also excellent point re: calibre of managerial material at last WC, may have to have a slight rethink (though it could stick in my throat and kill me in which case I'm holding you responsible for my untimely demise!)...I mean straueli, bloody hell...a mentalist of the first water even dallaglio, johnson et al would have struggled.....

The GP is a pretty attrional league, but all that means is you need bigger squads, not bigger, foreign squads. After all, very few of the Irish playing in the GP are Irish frontliners (is Murphy the only really regular Irish player playing there?) The fact is that second tier Irish players are getting ahead of second tier English players becuase they are better players, for whatever reason. Eitherway it supports my theory that the depth of talent in England is actually pretty shallow, unlike NZ or SA who can change their entire squad in a 5 or 6 year cycle.

Chabal had it tough in TP alright, but isn't the mark of a great 8 to keep on going, not to start hiding on the wing (which he hilariously started doing)?

Casey is another example of an overhyped player (imo), huge natural ability but to my mind, he's never really delievered on his underage promise. He is an old style lock, whereas now locks really have to act as secondary flankers and ball carriers (as I suppose every player does now).

It's so easy to dismiss coaches as secondary figures to the players they coach, but it doesn't all come down to the players. It's curious that when Woodward succeeded, you credited his players, but when he failed, you blame him?

To my mind, for example, on the last Lions tour, players like Hodgeson, Back, Byrne, D'Arcy and even Hickie shouldn't have travelled, and players like Jones and Patterson shouldn't have been left at home, the politics of the players being brought was all wrong.

toomevara

Stop! Stop! You're bringing me round, damn you!

Trojan

I still think SCW was the man for the job. He's a Roy Keane type, won't put up with rubbish. I think Andrew is not strong enough for it, I thought he would do more with Newcastle.