Old man river

fuzzbox

PP 3/6 6-max
Dont really know much about villain, but he has called a few of my raises and folded to a flop bet.
He is about 30/15 or something.

I have 600 on co
He has 1600 on button

Preflop
Folded to me, I open for 21 with Ac Jc, he calls. all others fold

Flop (49)
Qc 6c 4d

I bet 35, he calls

Turn (112)
As

I consider checking, but decide to bet instead. I bet 88, he calls

River (288)
Ts

I check ... he bets 200 ... yuck ... what do I do?

How is the line so far?

Gholimoli

Up until turn is fine.
I don’t like the turn bet simply because you have a good draw that he can push you off of if he wants to.
if you bet this turn your gonna have to release your hand to a push and if you get flat called then you shouldnt really put any more in that pot unless you improve.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

if you bet this turn your gonna have to release your hand to a push and if you get flat called then you shouldnt really put any more in that pot unless you improve.

Why not?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Why not?

What do you think you beat that he calls with, or if you check, what do you think he will bet for value that you beat?
You say he has called you raise pre flop but folded to a flop bet so he can fold hands.
Here he has called a pre flop raise, called a bet on the flop, a bet on the turn, do you think your AJ is good if he bets on that board?
slim chance he may have pop at it on the river with hand you beat but very very slim chance.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

What do you think you beat that he calls with, or if you check, what do you think he will bet for value that you beat?
You say he has called you raise pre flop but folded to a flop bet so he can fold hands.
Here he has called a pre flop raise, called a bet on the flop, a bet on the turn, do you think your AJ is good if he bets on that board?
slim chance he may have pop at it on the river with hand you beat but very very slim chance.

A missed flush draw?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

What do you think you beat that he calls with, or if you check, what do you think he will bet for value that you beat?
You say he has called you raise pre flop but folded to a flop bet so he can fold hands.
Here he has called a pre flop raise, called a bet on the flop, a bet on the turn, do you think your AJ is good if he bets on that board?
slim chance he may have pop at it on the river with hand you beat but very very slim chance.

And if I check/call turn, and check river ... is that different?

What do you think he has that calls the flop and calls the turn?

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

A missed flush draw?

very very slim chance considering we hold the nut draw.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

And if I check/call turn, and check river ... is that different?

What do you think he has that calls the flop and calls the turn?

check,call turn but i didnt say call river.
the river card is horrible for you.
AK,AQ,AT all beat you .you tie with AJ.there str there as well.
if check call the turn and fold to river bet unless his bet on the river is very small in relation to the pot.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

And if I check/call turn, and check river ... is that different?

What do you think he has that calls the flop and calls the turn?

AK,AT ,AQ look like his most liekly holdings here in my openion.
AT would fit more than any thing else with the way the hand was played.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

AK,AT ,AQ look like his most liekly holdings here in my openion.
AT would fit more than any thing else with the way the hand was played.

So you think he calls the flop with ace high?

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

So you think he calls the flop with ace high?

i say its possible he calls there with AK.
there are alot of things possible including the missed flush draw you were talking about but i think on avarage we are beat here huge majority of the time if we are facing a decent villain.
its possible he got sick of folding to out flop c/bet and called there with A high and its also possible he got sick of our c/bet and decided to trap with AA ,QQ or its possible he got sick of our c/bet and decided to continue with flush draw or 75s for OESD or something we beat .but its much more likely that we are beat here when he bets on the river.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

AK,AT ,AQ look like his most liekly holdings here in my openion.
AT would fit more than any thing else with the way the hand was played.

AT .... .AT .... how the fvck do you figure he has AT?

Flop Q64 with two clubs - I bet ... and he calls me with AT ?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

AT .... .AT .... how the fvck do you figure he has AT?

Flop Q64 with two clubs - I bet ... and he calls me with AT ?

chill dude,
read the post i replied to card shark about him being sick of your c/bet and decides to continue on with the hand.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

chill dude,
read the post i replied to card shark about him being sick of your c/bet and decides to continue on with the hand.

I saw that. I was more pointing out that he had folded mostly, so he probably has some form of hand this time, rather than nothing. It looks like he was folding his nothings, and not floating me.

A "few" does not mean that I was blamming away at every flop/turn/river.

I think AT is extremely unlikely.

Poker & Pints

IMO, the guy is on QQ. gholi makes a lot of sense in the point that the guy can fold hands...here he is in it all the way. I see quite a few plyrs ensure that the flush is NOT made and then push.

fuzzbox

Poker & Pints wrote:

I see quite a few plyrs ensure that the flush is NOT made and then push.

Where do you find these wonders of modern science?

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Where do you find these wonders of modern science?

I think he means they rig the software?

As regards to the hand, at first I was inclined to fold the river, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe I can find a call. I see no problem with the turn bet either.

ianmc38

I prefer checking the turn. On the river we beat a bluff.

ocallagh

horrible hand. 66 and AQ are both very possible, but he played both those hands strangely. i dont think he's on a draw.

an important thing to look at here is what he has you on. Have you been following up with many continuation bets? The board changes a lot on the turn, but your betting remains consistent. Your hand stinks of a series of stubborn continuation bets, and your check on the river confirms this. You look quite weak.

You concealed your ace and he could possibly be value betting KQ here. It's very close.. I may call because of your river check, but as i said earlier in the post, you may well be beaten by AQ or 66 here.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

I saw that. I was more pointing out that he had folded mostly, so he probably has some form of hand this time, rather than nothing. It looks like he was folding his nothings, and not floating me.

A "few" does not mean that I was blamming away at every flop/turn/river.

I think AT is extremely unlikely.

My point is ,your more than likely behind either way you look at it.
If he can fold hands that didn’t make it on the flop then the fact that he continues on with bets on every street and now he bets on the river means you beat.
If he had nothing on the flop and decided to continue on with KJ,AT you are now beat.
For curiosity reasons I hope you called the river bet so we can see what he had even though a call is horrible poker wise.

Gholimoli

ocallagh wrote:

horrible hand. 66 and AQ are both very possible, but he played both those hands strangely. i dont think he's on a draw.

an important thing to look at here is what he has you on. Have you been following up with many continuation bets? The board changes a lot on the turn, but your betting remains consistent. Your hand stinks of a series of stubborn continuation bets, and your check on the river confirms this. You look quite weak.

You concealed your ace and he could possibly be value betting KQ here. It's very close.. I may call because of your river check, but as i said earlier in the post, you may well be beaten by AQ or 66 here.

i don’t agree with 66 Nail.
Unless he is Muppet i don’t think he has 66 here. The combined flush and str possibilities on the turn makes this a very scary bored and makes him want to protect his hand with a raise on the turn.
KQ is possible but I don’t see it value betting on the river. The bet on the river is either a complete bluff IMO or at least two pair .it could some times be AK as well depending just how good/bad villain is.
As you said though the A on the turn changes things dramatically.

Poker & Pints

fuzzbox wrote:

Where do you find these wonders of modern science?

If you don't want comments, then don't ask!

I could have simply said FOLD! Is that better?

Hectorjelly

He can have any number of hands on the river, some you beat some you dont. The presence of both missed flush draw and a missed straight draw would push me towards a call.

delanec8

I dont think this would be a horrible call at all. Most of the time we would have been raised by a made hand that beats us earlier because of the presence of both flush and straight draws on the board.

I think you have set it up for him to bluff a missed draw and this is definitely a call.

Gholi you said you dont think he has 66 because he would have raised earlier because of the scary board. In that case the same could be said about AQ. I dont see him having AT at all here and he wont have AK here very often either imo.

fuzzbox

Poker & Pints wrote:

If you don't want comments, then don't ask!

I could have simply said FOLD! Is that better?

Sorry - I was only asking, where you find those guys. I would like to know, because I would like to play with them.

Your comments are fine, and thank you for your input.

fuzzbox

Results:
Well, lets end this glorious cliffhanger.

I looked at the board and figured that he would have raised the flop/turn with a set/twopair. He was unlikely to have KJ (cos I have Jc, so it wouldnt be KcJc), and unlikely to have AT (again cant be AcTc cos I have Ac).

He could have AQ, but I really thought he would raise somewhere.

So I gritted my teeth and called.

He showed me AA ... oh my.

Wheres the rivered club when you need it .

jimbling

fuzzbox wrote:

Results:
Well, lets end this glorious cliffhanger.

I looked at the board and figured that he would have raised the flop/turn with a set/twopair. He was unlikely to have KJ (cos I have Jc, so it wouldnt be KcJc), and unlikely to have AT (again cant be AcTc cos I have Ac).

He could have AQ, but I really thought he would raise somewhere.

So I gritted my teeth and called.

He showed me AA ... oh my.

Wheres the rivered club when you need it .

I would of had him on KQ and would have been happy to call. I am shocked and stunned.

ocallagh

fuzzbox wrote:

Results:
Well, lets end this glorious cliffhanger.

I looked at the board and figured that he would have raised the flop/turn with a set/twopair. He was unlikely to have KJ (cos I have Jc, so it wouldnt be KcJc), and unlikely to have AT (again cant be AcTc cos I have Ac).

He could have AQ, but I really thought he would raise somewhere.

So I gritted my teeth and called.

He showed me AA ... oh my.

Wheres the rivered club when you need it .

ouch - your ace was more concealed than u thought!!

Hectorjelly

jimbling wrote:

I would of had him on KQ and would have been happy to call. I am shocked and stunned.

No good player will ever have KQ there

Bandana boy

ocallagh wrote:

ouch - your ace was more concealed than u thought!!

you got that right :eek:

Kamaldihnio

Gholimoli wrote:

i say its possible he calls there with AK.
there are alot of things possible including the missed flush draw you were talking about but i think on avarage we are beat here huge majority of the time if we are facing a decent villain.
its possible he got sick of folding to out flop c/bet and called there with A high and its also possible he got sick of our c/bet and decided to trap with AA ,QQ or its possible he got sick of our c/bet and decided to continue with flush draw or 75s for OESD or something we beat .but its much more likely that we are beat here when he bets on the river.

Gholi was right.

Rnger

Kamaldihnio wrote:

Gholi was right.

Easy to be right when you cover EVERYTHING

Kamaldihnio

Rnger wrote:

Easy to be right when you cover EVERYTHING

The point is, he was losing, if the villain was half decent.

Lafortezza

Does Villain make more $$ out of you if he raises the turn?

jimbling

For a change HJ... could you explain your reasoning why he couldn't have KQ. I can see more reasons for him having KQ than having AA/QQ, and would like you to enlighten me as to what your thinking is.

In your first post you seem to think the villain has a missed flush / str draw and is chancing his arm on the river.

Hectorjelly wrote:

The presence of both missed flush draw and a missed straight draw would push me towards a call.

But then I mention I would have put him on KQ and you give one of your usual blunt comments

Hectorjelly wrote:

No good player will ever have KQ there

So in post1 you think the villain is a dumbass calling 3/4 pot bets on a draw...and when he misses he tries to steal the pot. But in Post2 you think he's too good to be calling a fuzz (who has been raising a lot, and making continuations) with Top Pair, second best kicker.


So my questions. Who said the player was good? Does a good player play AA like that?
And even if the player was relatively good, why could he never have KQ?

El Stuntman

jimbling wrote:

But then I mention I would have put him on KQ and you give one of your usual blunt comments

So my questions. Who said the player was good? Does a good player play AA like that?
And even if the player was relatively good, why could he never have KQ?

the answer is obvious Jim....because he is a genius and we are idiots who know nothing about poker....

fuzzbox

Jimbling : because he bet the river.

fuzzbox

lafortezza wrote:

Does Villain make more $$ out of you if he raises the turn?

Dont think so. About the same prolly, maybe I even fold.

Raising the flop, however ... could be a different story.

jimbling

fuzzbox wrote:

Jimbling : because he bet the river.

okay.. fair enough. Most people would not value bet the KQ here*. Majority of times you'll only get called by what beats you, and everything else folds. The reason for my decision of KQ was because It was difficult to put him on anything else. Not thinking straight of late.

Just got peeved by the manner of HJs response. Dont see why he can't give reasons with his curt replys.



*There is a pretty large number of players on the 3/6 level that would make the mistake of betting the KQ.