1/2 Top and Bootom Pair

ianmc38

Played this hand last night

UTG is just at the table. Has raised a few pots preflop to 9xBB. once was aces, once was 6d8d. Seems pretty stupid. SB is a complete fish. He checked a set to me on the flop, turn and river and I checked behind on every street. He has also called me to the felt with medium pocket pairs.

I have 230. SB has 170 and UTG has 140 or so.

I'm on the BB and get dealt T4o

5 players see the flop

Flop (10)

Td 9d 4c

(I have no diamonds)

I check, UTG bets 6. Called around to me and I raise to 30.

2 callers

Turn (100)

Qs

SB checks.

What's the best line for the turn?

cardshark202

I prefer leading the flop, but as things stand now I would bet the fúck out of it still.

NickyOD

I'd just push all in now. I might check raise with 2 pair on the flop there also. If you walk into QT J8 so be it. It's highly unlikely a set or 9T missed the oportunity to 3 bet the flop.

Gholimoli

push

Killme00

I dont think i would push...i thnk 75 to 100 should be enough.

How would you play this is you had 9 10

Hectorjelly

Your in a weird spot now because of the flop line. I think check folding here might be good, I definitely dont want to just push it in readless and with no more information.

ianmc38

I would often lead here. I'd been leading alot of flops with a mixture of hands and was simply mixing up my play a little. The draw heavy board also contributed to this.

On the flop I'm only behind 44 here and 9T. TT and 99 would have been raised preflop especially by UTG. SB is a donk but he'd still raise those 2 hands.

As a general question, why do people prefer to lead here rather than check-raise?

Hectorjelly

ianmc38 wrote:

I would often lead here. I'd been leading alot of flops with a mixture of hands and was simply mixing up my play a little. The draw heavy board also contributed to this.

On the flop I'm only behind 44 here and 9T. TT and 99 would have been raised preflop especially by UTG. SB is a donk but he'd still raise those 2 hands.

As a general question, why do people prefer to lead here rather than check-raise?

Leading is nearly always better than checkraising. It lets you control the size of the pot better, makes opponents play defensively and leak more information to you, makes yours hand less readable, doesnt tend to end pots prematurely, doesnt rely on someone else betting and doesnt create totally horrible situations like the one you find yourself in now.

edit to note, chk raising is good only when the stacks are shallow

ianmc38

I might make the same play with JQd, A4d or some other similar hands.

What information do I get by leading here if:

1. Everyone calls
2. Someone raises
3. Someone raises and one or more people call

Is taking this pot down now bad? There aren't many turn cards that I will like.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I might make the same play with JQd, A4d or some other similar hands.

What information do I get by leading here if:

1. Everyone calls
2. Someone raises
3. Someone raises and one or more people call

Is taking this pot down now bad? There aren't many turn cards that I will like.

Yeah, and thats why you prefer to keep the pot small until after it falls

ianmc38

I genuinely dont understand the logic behind that. Why would I want to give drawing hands a cheap turn card? Are you advocating waiting for safe cards to hit all the time before betting?

Anyways, a diamond came on the river and I check folded when UTG bet 25. SB called with QT and UTG had AT.

Hectorjelly

ianmc38 wrote:

I genuinely dont understand the logic behind that. Why would I want to give drawing hands a cheap turn card? Are you advocating waiting for safe cards to hit all the time before betting?

Anyways, a diamond came on the river and I check folded when UTG bet 25. SB called with QT and UTG had AT.

No thats not what he is advocating. A disadvantage of chk raising is that the pot becomes unmanagebly big if you get called. You now have only 1 option on the turn. If you lead the flop the pot will only be 30 euros big or so. If you feel you still have the best hand on the turn you can fire again without being committed. Getting them to pay just a normal almost pot amount on the flop is fine.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I genuinely dont understand the logic behind that. Why would I want to give drawing hands a cheap turn card? Are you advocating waiting for safe cards to hit all the time before betting?

Anyways, a diamond came on the river and I check folded when UTG bet 25. SB called with QT and UTG had AT.

as HJ said, thats not what I'm saying.

Im saying that the equity of your hand is hard to define, but on a 9Tx twotone board, there are a gazillion draws. you are oop Vs a field, and this flop almost certainly hits some players. You dont know in what way, and you are oop. However, you prolly have the best hand.

If you c/r, and they call, then you really hate every turn card that is not an "x", but now you are leaking implied odds, because you dont really know if the card helped them, but you have to bet hard on any non-diamond.

Or, you are gonna check a LOT of turn cards, and thus actually end up giving ppl good "total" odds to draw for fear of leaking implied odds. (So the Q comes .... did you check? ... why did you check?).

If you lead, get 3 callers, then you can still bet the Qo on the turn, and can then give up later if you figure you are beat.

So, the equity of your hand, coupled with the fact that about half the deck makes you want to throw up, means - lead > check/raise.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

as HJ said, thats not what I'm saying.

Im saying that the equity of your hand is hard to define, but on a 9Tx twotone board, there are a gazillion draws. you are oop Vs a field, and this flop almost certainly hits some players. You dont know in what way, and you are oop. However, you prolly have the best hand.

If you c/r, and they call, then you really hate every turn card that is not an "x", but now you are leaking implied odds, because you dont really know if the card helped them, but you have to bet hard on any non-diamond.

Or, you are gonna check a LOT of turn cards, and thus actually end up giving ppl good "total" odds to draw for fear of leaking implied odds. (So the Q comes .... did you check? ... why did you check?).

If you lead, get 3 callers, then you can still bet the Qo on the turn, and can then give up later if you figure you are beat.

So, the equity of your hand, coupled with the fact that about half the deck makes you want to throw up, means - lead > check/raise.

excellent stuff this.

pok3rplaya

ianmc38 wrote:

I check, UTG bets 6. Called around to me and I raise to 30.

2 callers

You are beat.

ianmc38

pok3rplaya wrote:

You are beat.

No, i was ahead.

pok3rplaya

ianmc38 wrote:

No, i was ahead.

I think most of the time when this happens you will be behind here. I'm looking towards pot control more then value from this point on.

igoe

your in the SE you can't loose
pot it and hope for a call