Fortune Tellers

wb

What is the position of the (Catholic) Church on Tarot Readers/Fortune tellers and the like?

I was talking to a few people about this the other day, and no-one was clear what the official line is. I remember reading (in a very old publication) that Catholics should steer clear of all that stuff as it was seen as part of the occult.

Personally, I think tarot/fortune telling etc. is a load of tosh but I know a few people going and the general attitute is that "It's just a bit of fun". These people would also consider themselves Catholic.

What is the 'official' line on this type of thing? Have the Church eased in their attitude in recent times, as I have not heard much comment on it. Does the church still believe it is part of the occult, or like me, do they believe it is simply money-making rubbish, hence the lack of condemnation of it?

Thanks.

wb

Bump

No takers on this one then?

I thought it was bad as you weren't trusting in god to take care of the future for you etc etc but I don't know tbh. sorry

BrianCalgary

I don't know what the RC church's position on it is.

The Bible does warn against staying away from mediums and familiar spirits.

Stay focused on Christ. No one but God knows what our future holds.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

No one but God knows what our future holds.

Not according to the Bible. Ever heard of the Witch of Endor?

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

Not according to the Bible. Ever heard of the Witch of Endor?

From 1 Samuel 28

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=28&version=31

Saul asks a medium to conjure up a spirit. The spirit responds in agreement with the word of God. It is obviuos that God has allowed the spirit to speak.

It is incumbent upon us to test everythin we hear regardingt biblical matters against th eword of God. Testing this passage against God's word does it work? Yes.

Saul had been disobeying God, He does so again in going to the witch. God's response, allow Samuel to chew on Him for disobeying God.

panda100

I cant find it on the net but I do remember reading an article about two years ago written by Ratzinger I think. It condemmened fortune telling along with yoga and reiki. These are all things that call on other forces that are not natural and so are all deemed as 'Black magic'.

hairyheretic

Magic is neither black nor white. The use its put to defines that.

I find it amusing that he'd condemn reiki, whose sole purpose (to my knowledge) is healing, while at the same time you have tens of thousands every year traveling to religious shrines to try and get what is in effect a magical cure for whatever their problems are.

robindch

There's a certain irony too in the fact that he seems to condemn prophecy as heretical (is there a reference for this text?), but forgets that the last book of his own holytext is an extended prophecy. Not to mention that the entire system of christianity itself collapses on its own terms, if the prophecy that Christ will return hapens to fail...

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

There's a certain irony too in the fact that he seems to condemn prophecy as heretical (is there a reference for this text?), but forgets that the last book of his own holytext is an extended prophecy. Not to mention that the entire system of christianity itself collapses on its own terms, if the prophecy that Christ will return hapens to fail...

Hey Robin

I'm interested as to where Ratzinger condemns prophecy. Any enlightenment. Always curious as to where the Pope is coming from.

Thanks

robindch

> I'm interested as to where Ratzinger condemns prophecy. Any enlightenment.

I'm interested too -- that's why I asked for a reference to the text!

panda100?

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

> I'm interested as to where Ratzinger condemns prophecy. Any enlightenment.

I'm interested too -- that's why I asked for a reference to the text!

panda100?

It might be this one, or eevn one of the others. Threre is a lot here.
The site is http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/index.html (very interesting)
The piece in question may be http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/defpagan.htm

panda100

Found it!This is the piece I read.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

Actually this should answer the op's question too as it talks of astrology and the occult.
Dont be put off reading it by the word 'new age'.Its a bit of an old word that make you think of naked hippies dancing round a bonfire but It actually means herbal remedies, yoga ,reiki,massage all those 'natural' remedies in our society today.
I particularly thought this paragraph was quite intresting.

The widespread New Age conviction that one creates one's own reality is appealing, but illusory. It is crystallised in Jung's theory that the human being is a gateway from the outer world into an inner world of infinite dimensions, where each person is Abraxas, who gives birth to his own world or devours it. The star that shines in this infinite inner world is man's God and goal. The most poignant and problematic consequence of the acceptance of the idea that people create their own reality is the question of suffering and death: people with severe handicaps or incurable diseases feel cheated and demeaned when confronted by the suggestion that they have brought their misfortune upon themselves, or that their inability to change things points to a weakness in their approach to life. This is far from being a purely academic issue: it has profound implications in the Church's pastoral approach to the difficult existential questions everyone faces. Our limitations are a fact of life, and part of being a creature. Death and bereavement present a challenge and an opportunity, because the temptation to take refuge in a westernised reworking of the notion of reincarnation is clear proof of people's fear of death and their desire to live forever.

UU

panda100 wrote:

I cant find it on the net but I do remember reading an article about two years ago written by Ratzinger I think. It condemmened fortune telling along with yoga and reiki. These are all things that call on other forces that are not natural and so are all deemed as 'Black magic'.

Sure doesn't the pope condemn everything bar anything Catholic. IMO he really needs a bit of Eastern spirituality as it might introduce some of the spirituality he seems to need. I do not think he is a very enlightening person at all compared to the last pope. It's funny but why condemn yoga? I've been taking it for a while now and I think it works wonders for one's inner peace, health and exercise. surely he wouldn't want his catholic followers to be in ill-health now, would he? He needs a bit of research to do on Eastern spirituality if he blindly and compulsively labels it under "black magic". Geesh, is it me or is he trying to plunge the RC Church back to where it was during the Middle Ages?

panda100

UU wrote:

I do not think he is a very enlightening person at all compared to the last pope.

Couldnt agree more. The rc church particulalry in Ireland is starved of spirituality and only 'seems' to be a church of rules and regulations. This is not so If you give it a chance though and meet newly ordained preiest or young catholics.But I do think from reading the vatican article that they have a point about new age phenomenens such as yoga,reiki etc. You can be spiritual in a way that doesnt call on eastern methods which if you read deeply into them are more harmful then good.

6th

Not sure about the church stance on Fortune Tellers but from the other side of the coin any FTers I've met have been very VERY religious (Christians).

panda100

6th wrote:

Not sure about the church stance on Fortune Tellers but from the other side of the coin any FTers I've met have been very VERY religious (Christians).

Really?Thats suprising. It doesnt matter what the rc churchs stance on it as a christian I dont need to be told that fortune telling isnt healthy. They couldnt have been that religous if they were fortune tellers surely?

6th

panda100 wrote:

Really?Thats suprising. It doesnt matter what the rc churchs stance on it as a christian I dont need to be told that fortune telling isnt healthy. They couldnt have been that religous if they were fortune tellers surely?

You'd be very wrong, seriously people have a very poor understanding of "genuine" fortune tellers.

hairyheretic

panda100 wrote:

Really?Thats suprising. It doesnt matter what the rc churchs stance on it as a christian I dont need to be told that fortune telling isnt healthy.

Why do you believe that?

panda100

6th wrote:

You'd be very wrong, seriously people have a very poor understanding of "genuine" fortune tellers.

My probably crude understanding of fortune tellers is from the time I went to one off Henry street.I picked out a few cards and then she told me what was in the future for me. Whats the difference between this and 'genuine' fortune tellers?

archdukefranz

panda100 wrote:

My probably crude understanding of fortune tellers is from the time I went to one off Henry street.I picked out a few cards and then she told me what was in the future for me. Whats the difference between this and 'genuine' fortune tellers?

surely a fortune teller is someone who fortells the furture, nothing more.
The thing is, what they could tell you might be inspired but how do you know if it is truth unless its from G-d?

hairyheretic

archdukefranz wrote:

surely a fortune teller is someone who fortells the furture, nothing more.

They foretell a future. To paraphrase master yoda, always in motion, the future is.

What I believe anyone doing divination sees is the most likely future, given present circumstances. If what they see is positive, the person receiving the reading can work to reinforce the likelyhood of that happening. If it's something they don't want, they can try to alter the current circumstances to lessen the chances of that future occuring.

archdukefranz wrote:

The thing is, what they could tell you might be inspired but how do you know if it is truth unless its from G-d?

I suppose you would know it as truth if it happened.

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

They foretell a future. To paraphrase master yoda, always in motion, the future is.

What I believe anyone doing divination sees is the most likely [...]

That was very well explained HH. I wonder how the I Ching is viewed.

Medina

Here is what the Bible says in various places. A bit harsh in some areas maybe. There's lots more where these came from...

Leviticus 19:26-28
" 'Do not practice divination or sorcery.


Leviticus 19:31
31 " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6
6 " 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.

Deuteronomy 18:9-14
9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.
The Prophet
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.

Micah 3:7
7 The seers will be ashamed
and the diviners disgraced.
They will all cover their faces
because there is no answer from God."

Leviticus 20:27
27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "


Acts 19
13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

17When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. 19A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.[d] 20In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.