Water Treatment Systems - Hard Water

dixiefly

Have any of you instaleld a system to soften water? There are a lot of companies out there and I am not sure if any are better than the others.

Pocari Sweat

dixiefly wrote:

Have any of you instaleld a system to soften water? There are a lot of companies out there and I am not sure if any are better than the others.

There are a load of shyster companies with american style pressure sales techniques selling all sorts of plop.

The thing to watch out for is if they are a rip off, and selling any old system and not inclined to want to come back service the unit.

I find the simplest way to cut the verbal bullshít alot come out with is have everything important they say backed up in print.

Do they have a fully illustrated, fully priced brochure for a start, transparently listing all the prices of everything they do? Or are they a bit shoddy, suugesting a price verbally and offering a discount if you decide today etc.

Does the company come round and do a free no obligation survey, and actually bring around all the different types of equipment so you can see what they are selling, or is it a commission sales man just talking about what they can get hold of?

If you are sent a salesman, and not a qualified plumber or the owner of the firm, is the saleman trying to get you to agree to sign a contract or part with a big deposit so you are "handcuffed" on the spot and then unlikely to be able to look around at better deals and better companies selling better equipment.

Salesmen often waffle on for hours if you let them, they may use shock tactics and warn of serious ill health bullshít if you don't buy their equipment etc. If you get any crap from a salesman, (health scares, wanting deposits, etc,) then kick the fecker out.

The best information you need is this;

The most suitable location for a water softener is out in the corner of a garage or shed if the mains pipe passes via the garage/shed before the house. This way you can get the larger / higher capacity units with better salt bin capacity and lesser hassle filling the thing with salt and a longer life of the unit because it doesn't need to wash itself as often.

With less options on siting you work towards the house, with options like, boiler room, utility, again if the mains entry pipe comes in, or can be diverted there as point of entry. There are neat sealed cabinets, bolted below the kitchen window outside on the path, with the pipes linked through the wall to under the sink, these should be a bit dearer because of the extra work involved fitting them, but not much more.

Finally, if there are no other options you might be stuck with the worse choice of a hotpress unit, or worse still an under the sink unit, or the lousiest - in the attic.

Whatever they offer, you should be able to get hold of the very best equipment and pay around 1,000 fitted for the best of the smaller units or up to 1,300 for the top of the range taller system with all the trimmings.

When I say all the trimmings -

Number one valve manufacturer in the world Clack Corporation.
(Cheaper valves, Autotrol, Fleck, Eerie etc)

Best Clack Valve on the market - WS1 CI (or Clack CI) - Volumetric.

Get a volumetric or metered valve, that is reliable like the Clack, other cheaper, non-metered or timer valves are old hat, not as efficient on salt use and on their way out of manufacture, supply and use.

Get a softener with a bypass valve option, handy for maintenance, problems etc.

For around 1,000 to 1,300 ask for a big unit like a 10x44" cylinder and large 3 to 6 bag salt bin, even a 10 bag salt bin. Do the job right.

Ask BEFORE hand if you get offered all the above, a full printed statement of warranty terms.

The best warranty available is a company offering full parts and labour onsite for a minimum of a few years or for the lifetime of the unit if it is serviced every one or two years for an agreed low fee.

Even better, will they give a printed guarantee they will answer the phone 7 days a week for emergencies? Do they work early to late or are they just 9-5 and five days a week.

Whatever the company claims, get it in writing, shop around, don't listen to too much bullshít or re-assurances, just get enough quotes, to finally see who are the shoddy rip-offs, and those who are fair and know their stuff.

The cheaper ones can often be the best and most honest, don't think the dearest price will get yu the best equipment or service, not in water treatment it won't, there are too many sharks out there, using that excuse.

Hope thats enough for you, for the time being?

Happy_Harry

Pocari Sweat, you seem to know what you are talking about.
Bought the house last year had several problems with my water, more the pump than the treatment system but they are serviced by the same company. The fact that I still have problems really bugs me. First the pump started leaking- fixed by new pump, now something in the shed is causing my ELCB to switch off every day, hence I don't have any water at present.
The water pressure has always been very low , and this company has promised me twice to fix it, no action so far.
I will move the whole installation in the next few months to the garage, but I am just not sure if I want to continue with this company. I never had the luxury to be confident I have water in the mornings and that is something I do blame this company for ( for right or for wrong).

Who do I need most right now, just a normal electrician or plumber or do I need somebody that knows all about the complete installation, as it might be the water treatment system that is causing the electrical problems.
Secondly, can I ask another company to help me from now on with this system ( such as moving it ) or does only the company that installed the system have the required knowledge (and spares) to work on it- and can anyone recommend some body (Meath area) ?
Thirdly, why do I have an enormous tank in my shed to collect the gases from the ground and my neighbours don't ?

AlanD

I was just about to put up a post about this very topic but decided to search first, so I'm glad I found out.

We too are looking to install a water softener and reverse osmosis filter for drinking water (have young baby so can't use softened water for him).

I've got 3/4 companies all coming out to me to do their analysis and give me a firm quote for what we need. We don't have the hardest water in the world, but we go through kettles every 6 months and things like the electric shower are starting to act up and we spend a fortune on things like calgon. House is 3 years old now. So at this stage it's more preventative.

Are there any makes of softeners that are better than others? Just because one guy quotes me 900 for one and 700 for another, it doesn't mean the 700 euro machine is worse. And of course the company will insist theirs is the best on the market. Or, are they all good?

I believe the metered systems are the way to go which makes sense. So it cleans itself when needed.

So has anyone got any experience with specific softeners?

Pocari Sweat

Happy_Harry wrote:

Pocari Sweat, you seem to know what you are talking about.

Thanks.http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

Happy_Harry wrote:

Bought the house last year had several problems with my water, more the pump than the treatment system but they are serviced by the same company. The fact that I still have problems really bugs me. First the pump started leaking- fixed by new pump, now something in the shed is causing my ELCB to switch off every day, hence I don't have any water at present.
The water pressure has always been very low , and this company has promised me twice to fix it, no action so far.
I will move the whole installation in the next few months to the garage, but I am just not sure if I want to continue with this company. I never had the luxury to be confident I have water in the mornings and that is something I do blame this company for ( for right or for wrong).

The ELCB, is possibly an earth wiring fault or earth leakage problem. If the wiring to the pump's pressure switch (grey plastic box) is a bit messy and there are signs of corrosion or leakage, that could be a cause.

The pressure problem is simple, just turn the nut clockwise by a few turns on the end of the longer of the two springs inside the pressure switch until you get a higher pressure range up to say 40 to 60 psi.

Happy_Harry wrote:

Who do I need most right now, just a normal electrician or plumber or do I need somebody that knows all about the complete installation, as it might be the water treatment system that is causing the electrical problems.
Secondly, can I ask another company to help me from now on with this system ( such as moving it ) or does only the company that installed the system have the required knowledge (and spares) to work on it- and can anyone recommend some body (Meath area) ?
Thirdly, why do I have an enormous tank in my shed to collect the gases from the ground and my neighbours don't ?

Get a water treatment specialist with good electrical skills to sort out the wiring end.

Another company surley can do better, but there are not many truly dedicated to providing a good back up service. Most good companies will have access to all the spares that you need.

The tanks are not always the best choice to get rid of gases, they help a little, but are too smelly and take up too much room. They are mostly used to vent off hydrogen sulphide, but a more effective way and sometime cheaper method is using a backwashable media called KDF 85 that is added to the contents of the main vessel - usually the tall blue one.

If sulphide levels are very high then a separate vessel with more KDF 85 set to backwash every day is usually the trick. A bit more expensive than tanks but they actually work, don't take up any room, well just under half a square foot floor space and guarantee the job is done right.

Your neighbours may have a well that was drilled to a certain depth in the ground that did not terminate in a rock strata (layer) that gave off hydrogen sulphide gases.

Pocari Sweat

AlanD wrote:

I was just about to put up a post about this very topic but decided to search first, so I'm glad I found out.

We too are looking to install a water softener and reverse osmosis filter for drinking water (have young baby so can't use softened water for him).

I've got 3/4 companies all coming out to me to do their analysis and give me a firm quote for what we need. We don't have the hardest water in the world, but we go through kettles every 6 months and things like the electric shower are starting to act up and we spend a fortune on things like calgon. House is 3 years old now. So at this stage it's more preventative.

Are there any makes of softeners that are better than others? Just because one guy quotes me 900 for one and 700 for another, it doesn't mean the 700 euro machine is worse. And of course the company will insist theirs is the best on the market. Or, are they all good?

I believe the metered systems are the way to go which makes sense. So it cleans itself when needed.

So has anyone got any experience with specific softeners?

I have worked on most brands sold in Ireland including Autrol based systems, Clack, Fleck, Hague, Eerie, Ionics (Fleck based) and a few odd ones such as Culligan and Waterside.

The top of the crop by a long chalk are Clack based valveheads, and well specified vessel and media combinations.

Fleck and Autotrol were steady reliable sellers for decades and many installers swore by them, but Clack who have been established for 58 years in America/Canada, took the best designers from Fleck in the nineties when Fleck could not afford to keep the best designers on, and with consultation with a wide range of the top engineers and installers, spent some time and investment designing the ultimate valve control.

Clack released a few models of the WS valve series in 2001 and the top of the range was the WS1 or WS1(CI). Nothing comes close to the CI, and all the rest are pretenders and classed as budget valves.

The WS1(CI) is volumetric and has a reliable, accurate volumetric metering system, it works on clean water brining so the valve wont clog on wells, it has impedence sensor dc motors that will not overload if any obstruction enters the valve, and apart from absolute bullet proof design, it has the highest number of service features and controls built into the electronics to be able to fault find to get complete feed back to the service engineer to work out some of the trickier problems, you can't just sort out with bog standard valve controls.

The specification of the overall water softener is fairly important, I would suggest going for a slightly larger vessel and brine tank (salt bin) so that the capacity of the unit can be upgraded if circumstances change in the future and with a bigger salt bin you don't have to fill it as often.

So the ultimate softener for the average family with a budget of around 1,200 euros =

Clack Corporation WS1 (CI) volumetric valve with bypass mixer,
10" x 44" pressure vessel with minimum 5 year replacement warranty,
Rohm and Haas SR1L Na cation resin (media) 25 to 40 litres,
6 to 10 bag salt bin with water level float control.

This sort of system would previously have been quoted at 3,000 euros by some of the top end companies importing the best equipment in previous years but because of higher volumes of systems coming onto the market and better competition and professionalism, prices are more sensible now.

The above system quoted, will work quite comfortably for around 30 years with 10 yearly refills of the softener resin and occasional "health checks" to monitor progress, they do not require indepth servicing because of the higher reliability of the Clack valve.

dixiefly

PS, thanks for the information. How do I go about getting such a system? Are there particular providers that you would recommend?

Pocari Sweat

Where abouts are you based, (or PM me).

AlanD

Which type of softener is better, a metered one or a timer one?

I've one company telling me that the timed system would be much better because when the machine cleans itself, it's better to do it at night when noone is using water.

I've another company telling me that the volumetric method is not the way to do it any more and it can end up cleaning itself when there's no need.