Call every time?

gerry87

STT Heads up. I have about 3500, he has about 3200.

Blinds 100/200, im on the button with JhQh and raise to 600, he re-raises to 1000. I call.

Flop comes 7s4cTh. He checks, I check.
Turn Kh. He goes all in.

Me?

Cash game clear call, but I've played him before and he isn't the greatest HU player in the world, so if i fold i could still have a good chance of winning.

Goodluck2me

i certainyl wouldnt call everytime, i would figure him for a king or a stone call bluff. if he bluffs 20% of the time in this spot you will be ahead and lose about 20% of the time. if he has a king without a J/Q you will win 30% of the time. 4a+49+7 extra hearts x2. which means you will (80% of 20) + ( 30% of 80)= 16+24=40% so therefore if its headsup i doubt your getting correct odds to call here. i think this is correct, no doubt someone can correct it if i am wrong.

Rnger

your getting pot odds of 1.9-to-1 to call. You have 15 outs for straight-flush draw. 46-to-15 = roughly 2-to-1(edit), to hit your draw. So your not gettin the right odds to call for your draw.

Are you ahead at this point? I doubt it. His reraise pf indicates an Ax/KQ or a pp. All of which you are behind. The large-ish bet may appear to not want a caller, but any reasonable bet he makes will commit him anyway, so why not go all-in? I doubt this slight overbet is a bluff. Also you say your a superior HU player, another reason not to play. I fold here.

Why is this an easy call in a cash game?

ArmaniJeanss

Rnger wrote:

your getting pot odds of 1.9-to-1 to call. You have 15 outs for straight-flush draw. 46-to-15 = roughly 3-to-1, to hit your draw.

Isn't 15 from 46 actually roughly 2/1 to hit your draw, or have I been doing pot odds wrong all along ?

gerry87

Guess i was way off with the workings so, i dont know how i must have had it worked out.

He turned over QT so i had one live over card.

Just out of curiosity, if i had the same draw on the flop, should that be a call?

Rnger

Yes it is. Its 2-1 my mistake.

I actually call this now! With a live J your 40% to win the hand, against a lower pp your almost 50%, pretty much the same against Ax. Its marginal but your getting the right odds.

ArmaniJeanss

If you're up against Tx then you have an extra 6 outs, if you are up against Ax then you have an extra 5 outs. Its a reasonable call and also a reasonable fold, I think (fence sitter).

El Stuntman

clear fold

especially in a cash game!!

ianmc38

gerry87 wrote:

Cash game clear call

Why?

Also, if it's a clear call in a cash game, why would it not be a clear call in a tournament?

fuzzbox

This is close, so either option is fine.

If you feel like you have the better of him even with the blind-stack ratio so hi, then fold.
If you want to gamble, then call, you should normally be about 2:1 (maybe more) and you are getting approx 2:1 here.

If the flop was KhTh4d, then you have an easy call as you are even money to hit your draw (excluding the possibility that a Q or J (or either) will win it for you), and you are getting 2:1 on your money.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Why?

Also, if it's a clear call in a cash game, why would it not be a clear call in a tournament?

Because you are out if you lose, and you are 100% sure that he will see a showdown (and its a close call in any event)

If, however, *YOU* were first to act - then going all-in would be the superior play, as you win the pot uncontested sometimes, and if he does call you are getting the right odds.

gerry87

El Stuntman wrote:

clear fold

especially in a cash game!!

It was a STT, why is it a fold more so in a cash game than tournament?

For some reason i though i was only a slight underdog in this. But heads up in tournaments should you comit yourself to a strong draw when odds say you should or should you not be taking the risk of getting knocked out?

Rnger

I think this call is dependant on your opponent. If he was previously asking whether 3-of-a-kind beats 2-pair(If he's a donkey), I fold. If I'm looking across at Phil Ivey, I call!

El Stuntman

I'll give him some credit and assume he has AK

you therefore have 14 outs (9 hearts, 2 non-heart aces, 3 non-heart nines) with 44 cards remaining in the deck i.e. your odds to hit are just over 2/1

you need to call 2500 to win 3200 (1.28/1) so you’re not getting good pot odds to hit

a call is not justified, therefore fold especially as you know you are a better HU player than him and can play on with 2500 against 4200 (what kind of weird STT was it where the total chip count is 6700?! and why didn't you bet the flop?)

in a (deep-stacked) cash game, I always fold here with those odds. Ian's right though it makes no difference (just me being a 2/4 cash player who likes to play low buy-in STTs on the side!)

fuzzbox

El Stuntman wrote:

I'll give him some credit and assume he has AK

you therefore have 14 outs (9 hearts, 2 non-heart aces, 3 non-heart nines) with 44 cards remaining in the deck i.e. your odds to hit are just over 2/1

you need to call 2500 to win 3200 (1.28/1) so you’re not getting good pot odds to hit

a call is not justified, therefore fold especially as you know you are a better HU player than him and can play on with 2500 against 4200 (what kind of weird STT was it where the total chip count is 6700?! and why didn't you bet the flop?)

in a (deep-stacked) cash game, I always fold here with those odds. Ian's right though it makes no difference (just me being a 2/4 cash player who likes to play low buy-in STTs on the side!)

If there is money to bet on the river, then you should pretty much always at least call in a cash game.

Also - if he does not have AK, but rather 88, then you have 21 outs and are nearly even money to win the pot, and thus are making a mistake by folding.

Oh - and the pot preflop was 2k, and villain has shoved for 2.2k .You are getting 4.2:2.2 odds, or 1.9:1.

ArmaniJeanss

El Stuntman wrote:

you need to call 2500 to win 3200

Its 2200 to win 4200 isnt it?

El Stuntman

fuzzbox wrote:

If there is money to bet on the river, then you should pretty much always at least call in a cash game. .

there's nothing to bet on the river in this case

fuzzbox wrote:

Also - if he does not have AK, but rather 88, then you have 21 outs and are nearly even money to win the pot, and thus are making a mistake by folding.

88 would have bet the flop imho...his pre-flop action suggests big ace

El Stuntman

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

Its 2200 to win 4200 isnt it?

errrr....yes

damn Fridays!!

fuzzbox

El Stuntman wrote:

there's nothing to bet on the river in this case

Then why did you say - cash (deep-stacked) game?
It doesnt matter how deep the stack is.

88 would have bet the flop imho...his pre-flop action suggests big ace

It turned out that he had QT, and you would have had 18 outs. So putting him on such a narrow range is a mistake.

gerry87

El Stuntman wrote:

weird STT was it where the total chip count is 6700?!

heh, good point, it was a home game and theres like 800 unaccounted for, given it's so close they'd probably make the difference, but i can't remember where they were, if it was bigger raise pre-flop or the all in had more chips.

Rnger

El Stuntman, I think you may be giving the villian here a bit too much credit. A min-reraise pf with QT, commiting almost 1/3 of your chips?
Whoever your playing against gerry, dosent occur to me as the best player out there

El Stuntman

Rnger wrote:

El Stuntman, I think you may be giving the villian here a bit too much credit. A min-reraise pf with QT, commiting almost 1/3 of your chips?
Whoever your playing against gerry, dosent occur to me as the best player out there

yes far too much credit...he should have told us it was a home game in the OP

anyways I think both players played the hand badly!!

(he signed off in an attempt to shut this thread down having made 1 mathematical mistake and at least 1 other)

gerry87

Rnger wrote:

El Stuntman, I think you may be giving the villian here a bit too much credit. A min-reraise pf with QT, commiting almost 1/3 of your chips?
Whoever your playing against gerry, dosent occur to me as the best player out there

aye, it's often occured to me too. Soo many all ins called with 10 6 and worse, because "no one else was going to call" and "they were soooted". Trying to put them on a hand? no chance!

heh, dozens of mathmatical mistakes... and i was doing maths in college! (i dropped it now tho). Signed off for lunch!

gerry87

Oh, should i definately have bet the flop after he checked? After him re-raising on the flop, me not hitting it at all, and him checking to me i just assumed it was a trap, would a bet nor have got me in trouble when i could see the turn for free?