Rate the Jocks

masterK

I've just had a bash at giving every flat jockey I could think of a rating of between 0 and 3 for ability and would like to get some feedback, also let me know of anybody I've missed.

Here's the list:

Name Rating
K Fallon 3
Robert Winston 3
L Dettori 3
Jamie Spencer 3
Ryan Moore 3
D P McDonogh 2.5
Michael Hills 2.5
Kerrin McEvoy 2.5
M J Kinane 2.5
John Egan 2.5
Philip Robinson 2.5
Seb Sanders 2.5
Richard Hughes 2.5
Alan Munro 2.5
R Hills 2
Paul Hanagan 2
K Darley 2
Jimmy Fortune 2
J Murtagh 2
Eddie Ahern 2
Darryll Holland 2
Jimmy Quinn 1.5
Martin Dwyer 1.5
N Callan 1.5
Graham Gibbons 1.5
Francis Norton 1.5
George Baker 1.5
Chris Catlin 1.5
Joe Fanning 1.5
Saleem Golam 1.5
Ted Durcan 1.5
K Manning 1.5
F M Berry 1.5
Tony Culhane 1.5
P J Smullen 1.5
Steve Drowne 1.5
Gary Carter 1
Micky Fenton 1
T P Queally 1
L Fletcher 1
T Quinn 1
Tom Doyle 1
S W Kelly 1
W Supple 1
J-P Guillambert 1
R P Cleary 1
Adam Kirby 1
J A Heffernan 1
Francis Ferris 1
Fergal Lynch 1
David Allan 1
Darren Williams 1
Dane O'Neill 1
Daniel Tudhope 1
Amir Quinn 1
Alan Kirby 1
Adrian Nicholls 1
C D Hayes 1
Nicky Mackay 1
Royston Ffrench 1
L P Keniry 1
Shane Kelly 1
Nelson De Souza 1
Richard Mullen 1
D J Condon 0.5
R Kingscote 0.5
Dean McKeown 0.5
Derek McGaffin 0.5
Sam Hitchcott 0.5
R Thomas 0.5
D Sweeney 0.5
Fergus Sweeney 0.5
Scott Carson 0.5
Phillip Makin 0.5
F McDonald 0.5
E Creighton 0.5
Tony Hamilton 0.5
Dale Gibson 0.5
D Kinsella 0.5
N G McCullagh 0.5
Brian Reilly 0.5
Ben Swarbrick 0.5
Ben Hitchcott 0.5
Andrew Mullen 0.5
Robert Havlin 0.5
Alex Greaves 0.5
D M Grant 0.5
Robert Miles 0.5
R Fitzpatrick 0.5
Michael Tebbutt 0.5
D J Moran 0.5
Steve Withworth 0.5
Lisa Jones 0.5
Lee Enstone 0.5
L Treadwell 0.5
Oscar Urbina 0.5
P Doe 0.5
Tom Eaves 0.5
Pat Cosgrave 0.5
Paul Mulrennan 0.5
Patrick Mathers 0.5
Stanley Chin 0.5
Jim Crowley 0.5
Paul Eddery 0.5
C O'Donoghue 0.5
James Doyle 0.5
W J Lee 0.5
Paul Fessey 0.5
J McCarthy 0.5
J Mackay 0.5
N Carberry 0.5
Ian Mongan 0.5
Hayley Turner 0.5
Greg Fairley 0.5
N Chalmers 0.5
Pat Dobbs 0.5
E Butterly 0.5
Others 0

fade2black

This should prove interesting. Well on a quick look here are my initial comments...

I think you've been a little unfair to some of the jockeys that you've given 0.5 too, some of them are young and as yet haven't really been given the opportunitites that others are getting at the moment. Danny Tudhope, Adam Kirby and a couple of others I would think are extremely proficient and are improving each day.

I personally don't think Spencer deserves a 3 as he's too flashy and needs to start thinking more about riding winners instead of riding winners spectaculalry. Detorri definitely has not been a 3 this season, and that has nothing to do with the godolphin army not firing on all cylinders. He's good but slightly over rated in my opinion. I'd have winston as a 2.5 and move Declan Macdonagh into his position. If a jockey is caught dropping his hands more than once that's definitely enough cause to not be a 3pt jock.

Hard to really argue with some more of it...I mean people like Danny Grant have done little wrong but just haven't had the breaks that some of the others have had. In saying that though, it is just a personally list and credit to you for doing it.

masterK

One of the main reasons I've only given a lot of the younger jocks .5 is that I don't get to see them too often as I don't get to see a huge amount of meetings mid week then at weekends with bigger meetings on these jocks have to step aside for the older brigade. This is precisely the reason I was hoping to get feedback from you guys.

Agreed on Adam Kirby though, I actually had Alan Kirby in as a 1 and got the 2 mixed up. I remember well the ride he gave Fairmile a month or so ago.

Redlancer

I think Fran Berry is harshly treated as he was heading for the irish jockeys championship until his injury last year. Also Neill Callan does well when given the ammo as he proves on the all weather. A few other who I think are harshly treated are

R Hills
Paul Hanagan
K Darley
Eddie Ahern
Darryll Holland
Royston Ffrench
L P Keniry

Also for me John Egan is a 3 with richard hughes going back one.

Crumbs

Maybe my old eyes are deceiving me but if not, Kevin Manning is worth sticking in on at least 1.5 and I'd bump up Jimmy Fortune to a 2.5.

masterK

Forgot all about Kevin Manning. Jimmy fortune a 2.5? Never, he is often caught napping when the moves are developing in races.

I'm happy enough leaving Callan as 1.5, he does well on the all weather all right but quite often I find he manages to find himself boxed in when about to make a move.

I'll update the list a bit later to reflect things I've missed/overlooked. It's interesting to see the differing opinions already.

fade2black

Ah...discussions...how I missed thee...

Bluetonic

Ah come on, Haley turner - she worthy of 1

Edited to add I wouldn't be too well up on many of these jockeys, did you pull this list from somewhere Master K or were they all in your head? If in your head, fair play.

scojones

Paul Carberry 0.1
Barry Geraghty 0.1

I agree with fade wrt MacDonagh, he's in flying form for the last three weeks or so and deserves more.

samo

RL Moore was also in flying form but seems to be going through a bit of a dip at the moment and horses he would normally at least place in have been unplaced - other than that unless my eyes deceive me surprised I didnt see Nina Carberry figuring on the list.

Nea

I would rate Johnny Murtagh 3, I know Johnny is not terribly liked on most racing forums but he has been riding out of skin this year and unlike the rest of the jocks marked 3 he is not connected to a big stable.

I would also rate Neil Callan and Fran Berry higher than you have.

I think Nelson de Souza could be a great jock but has had some dodge rides this season.

I think Emmet Butterly has great potential too( dunno if he is injured at the mo, tho)
I would bring down Richard Hughes mark and I think Spencer is overrated.

I gather this thread was only for flat jocks?

Morgans

The most underrated jockey riding today is George Baker. I think he is top class but too tall to get a top job. I'd drop hughes a half point as well. Money ofr a horse that Culhane is one is worth an extra point.

wb

sjones wrote:

Paul Carberry 0.1

I know she rides hunt, but I think Nina should be up there.

Purely cos I fancy her. tee hee

I'm sure jones will back me up

fr wishy washy

I agree that JP Murtagh deserves more than 2 maybe a 2.5 and MJ Kinane is a defo 3 in the Good Fathers humble opinion.

Tush

W Lordan in my eye is a very good up n coming Jock

aidan24326

masterK wrote:

I've just had a bash at giving every flat jockey I could think of a rating of between 0 and 3 for ability and would like to get some feedback, also let me know of anybody I've missed.

Bump Fallon up to 3.5. Different class. Murtagh should be a 3. Spencer deserves 3 he's riding alot of winners and has cut out alot of the flashy crap.
Agree with you only giving Richard Hills a 2. He gets good horses riding for Maktoum and I don't think he would ride very many winners if he didn't have such a steady stream of ammunition. Neil Callan is underrated imo.

scojones

wbailey wrote:

I know she rides hunt, but I think Nina should be up there.

Purely cos I fancy her. tee hee

I'm sure jones will back me up

Haha, she's mine wbailey! Some day... some day...

masterK

Nea wrote:

I think Emmet Butterly has great potential too( dunno if he is injured at the mo, tho)

I would bring down Richard Hughes mark and I think Spencer is overrated.

Totally forgot about Butterly, was hugely impressed with him last year and had him down as one for the future. I think I must be the only person on the planet that actually likes Richard Hughes, he's a cool customer who's timing of delivery of a horse is usually spot on.

Morgans wrote:

The most underrated jockey riding today is George Baker. I think he is top class but too tall to get a top job. I'd drop hughes a half point as well. Money ofr a horse that Culhane is one is worth an extra point.

I have grown to like Baker, doesn't do anything spectacular but rarely have a complaint against any of his rides.

I've totally gone off Culhane this season, used to really like him but he doesn't seem to have been at his best at all this season, he has been looking very weak in the finish, maybe age is catching up with him.

Bluetonic wrote:

Ah come on, Haley turner - she worthy of 1

Edited to add I wouldn't be too well up on many of these jockeys, did you pull this list from somewhere Master K or were they all in your head? If in your head, fair play.

Not a Hayley Turner fan at all, especially since she's lost her claim.

I've build the list just by looking at the racecards and adding each jock. You don't realise just how many jockeys there actually are, there's a load not on the list who I'd rate at 0.

fade2black

One criticism I have about Baker is that he likes to be known as a jock who's great from the back, hold up horses. This is probably one of those "You know what grinds my gears"....when it goes well it looks well but more often than not it doesn't work and looks terrible.

Morgans

One criticism I have about Baker is that he likes to be known as a jock who's great from the back, hold up horses. This is probably one of those "You know what grinds my gears"....when it goes well it looks well but more often than not it doesn't work and looks terrible.

I think commentators only notice him when he rides from the back. He is equally adept from the front. He's good. I'd have him ahead of most.

Morgans

MasterK. Did Niall McCullagh and Shane Kelly do something to your family to get the rating they did?

Redlancer

I think Neill Callan does not get the credit he deserves. I think he has played a big part in the emergence of kevin ryans stable in the last few years. Darryll Holland is also very under-rated and I think he has been doing well this year given that he doesnt get the horses others do.

Eddie Ahern is other that just doesnt get the horses but one I greatly admire although he does seem tempermental and this trait has probably held him back. Guys met Nina Carberry out one night and she is not very friendly so ye can have her. Cathy Gannon much more friendly

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

alibabba

Here is a good question ......... Whats the point in rating jockeys, who cares ?

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

fade2black

alibabba wrote:

Here is a good question ......... Whats the point in rating jockeys, who cares ?

Someone like you will probably say something to make me ban you after I say this....so fire away.

alibabba

ziggy67 wrote:

Here's a better question: whats the point of posting in a thread you've no interest in?

The same point in answering a question with a question !

Why would someone want to rate a whole list of jockeys from 3 to 1

Example, here is a list of premiership players, lets rate them 1 to 3 ( WHY ? )

1 thierry henry
2 frank lampard
3 ruud van nistelrooy
4 steven gerrard
5 rio ferdinand
6 robbie keane
7 william gallas
8 john terry
9 darren bent
10 edwin van der sar
11 wayne rooney
12 steve finnan
13 jimmy bullard
14 jamie carragher
15 sami hyypia
16 john o'shea
17 petr cech
18 michael carrick
19 pascal chimbonda
20 gary o'neil
21 marlon harewood
22 joe cole
23 jens lehmann
24 didier drogba
25 morten gamst pedersen
26 cesc fabregas
27 claude makelele
28 jose reina
29 kevin davies
30 brad friedel
31 lucas neill
32 craig bellamy
33 paul robinson
34 paul stalteri
35 mikael silvestre
36 matthew taylor
37 kevin nolan
38 steed malbranque
39 paul konchesky
40 gilberto
41 jermain defoe
42 matthew etherington
43 luis boa morte
44 shay given
45 danny gabbidon
46 cristiano ronaldo
47 jermaine jenas
48 robert pires
49 leighton baines
50 gary neville
51 lee young-pyo
52 aiyegbeni yakubu
53 xabi alonso
54 darius vassell
55 jussi jaaskelainen
56 stelios giannakopoulos
57 ledley king
58 jason roberts
59 phil neville
60 hernan crespo
61 gareth barry
62 brian mcbride
63 nolberto solano
64 tim cahill
65 kolo toure
66 fernando morientes
67 thomas sorensen
68 peter crouch
69 nigel reo-coker
70 ryan giggs
71 joey barton
72 michael dawson
73 arjen robben
74 aaron hughes
75 michael gray
76 anton ferdinand
77 michael essien
78 asier del horno
79 david james
80 charles n'zogbia
81 tony hibbert
82 liam ridgewell
83 yossi benayoun
84 shola ameobi
85 luke young
86 david weir
87 jermaine pennant
88 djibril cisse
89 jonathan greening
90 hermann hreidarsson
91 robbie savage
92 henri camara
93 radostin kishishev
94 mikel arteta
95 damien duff
96 zurab khizanishvili
97 steven davis
98 ryan nelsen
99 steven reid
100 trevor sinclair

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

fr wishy washy

alibabba wrote:

Here is a good question ......... Whats the point in rating jockeys, who cares ?

Its called creating a thread- so we can debate whether we agree or not i.e.- The reason why Boards.ie or indeed any forum exists.


Or to answer your question directly-most of us here do.

scojones

alibabba wrote:

The same point in answering a question with a question !

Why would someone want to rate a whole list of jockeys from 3 to 1

Example, here is a list of premiership players, lets rate them 1 to 3 ( WHY ? )

1 thierry henry
2 frank lampard
3 ruud van nistelrooy
4 steven gerrard
5 rio ferdinand
6 robbie keane
7 william gallas
8 john terry
9 darren bent
10 edwin van der sar
11 wayne rooney
12 steve finnan
13 jimmy bullard
14 jamie carragher
15 sami hyypia
16 john o'shea
17 petr cech
18 michael carrick
19 pascal chimbonda
20 gary o'neil
21 marlon harewood
22 joe cole
23 jens lehmann
24 didier drogba
25 morten gamst pedersen
26 cesc fabregas
27 claude makelele
28 jose reina
29 kevin davies
30 brad friedel
31 lucas neill
32 craig bellamy
33 paul robinson
34 paul stalteri
35 mikael silvestre
36 matthew taylor
37 kevin nolan
38 steed malbranque
39 paul konchesky
40 gilberto
41 jermain defoe
42 matthew etherington
43 luis boa morte
44 shay given
45 danny gabbidon
46 cristiano ronaldo
47 jermaine jenas
48 robert pires
49 leighton baines
50 gary neville
51 lee young-pyo
52 aiyegbeni yakubu
53 xabi alonso
54 darius vassell
55 jussi jaaskelainen
56 stelios giannakopoulos
57 ledley king
58 jason roberts
59 phil neville
60 hernan crespo
61 gareth barry
62 brian mcbride
63 nolberto solano
64 tim cahill
65 kolo toure
66 fernando morientes
67 thomas sorensen
68 peter crouch
69 nigel reo-coker
70 ryan giggs
71 joey barton
72 michael dawson
73 arjen robben
74 aaron hughes
75 michael gray
76 anton ferdinand
77 michael essien
78 asier del horno
79 david james
80 charles n'zogbia
81 tony hibbert
82 liam ridgewell
83 yossi benayoun
84 shola ameobi
85 luke young
86 david weir
87 jermaine pennant
88 djibril cisse
89 jonathan greening
90 hermann hreidarsson
91 robbie savage
92 henri camara
93 radostin kishishev
94 mikel arteta
95 damien duff
96 zurab khizanishvili
97 steven davis
98 ryan nelsen
99 steven reid
100 trevor sinclair

Go away.

wb

alibabba wrote:

Here is a good question ......... Whats the point in rating jockeys, who cares ?

Can I suggest that this poster be banned from the HR forum for that. Posts like that really serve no purpose and clog up the HR forum.

scojones

Considering their input to date, along with that comment I've decided it best to agree with you Wayne. 1 month ban for alibabba.

masterK

You should of let him stay, I'm sure he'd of entertained us with some of his insights into horse racing.

His next question would have been "What's the point of worrying about the going, they wouldn't study the state of the ground at a football match".

I think the phrase Mug Punter springs to mind.

Corben Dallas

Kieran Fallon 3*
Frankie Dettori3
Ruby Walsh3 (not sure if this is flats only?)
AP McCoy 3

Seb Saunders 2.75

Eddie Ahern 2.5
N Callan 2.5
Timmy Murphy 2.5
Mick Kinnane 2.5
G Lee 2.5
Nelson De Souza 2.5
Oscar Ubrina2.5

Nina Carbery 2
Jamie Spencer 2
Pj Smullen 2

R Hills 1.5

P Carbery 0.5
Rose Davidson -1
W J Lee -1

---

K Fallon >what a brilliant jock, natural ablity to ride winners, shame that controvesy seems to surround him.
Tadgh 'Tiger' :rolleyes: O'sulivan < how do u guys rate this jock? has he got talent to get up with frankie etc?
Seb Saunders < keeps getting bigger and bigger, often the 'difference' in close races consistantly at sharp end getting to 3's shortly
Jamie Spencer.>like him but boy does he cost, his hold up style and win only by less than a length often loses u the race, gets a lot of quality rides, seems to have a v high 'race wins wasted' ratio.
bit of a Robbie Keane complex?
R Hills 2.5 (<this is prob generous) good but maybe flattered because of the quality hes always on , benefits of being Al Maktoums No1 jock, (<lot of ppl think he will lose this role soon) lot of wins but also lot of 2nds when hes turned over/touched off on the line, an indiaction of a average reader of the pace of the race/ mistiming his finishing runs?
Carbery harsh (prob should be 1.5/2)
last two misfits are just v bad jocks IMO

Redlancer

Folks I think everybody is been harsh on R Hills. I was looking at the racing post yesterday and I saw most of his wins have come for B Hills this year. Then I thought of Al Maktoums good horses

1. Mubataker (no longer)
2. Maraheel he has won on him this year
3. Eswarrah (cant remember seen her)
4 Rhondani (cant get head in front)

The other problem for R Hills is Al Maktoums horses are all over the shop so its very hard decide whats best.

alibabba

masterK wrote:

You should of let him stay, I'm sure he'd of entertained us with some of his insights into horse racing.

His next question would have been "What's the point of worrying about the going, they wouldn't study the state of the ground at a football match".

I think the phrase Mug Punter springs to mind.

No, my next question is " Have you read Lord of the Flies " ?

fade2black

Alibabba, it was decided that we give you chance to prove that you can actually be a worthwhile addition to this forum. Do you want that chance or will we just go ahead and ban you?

Hawk Wing

I'd have Fallon head and shoulders above every other flat jockey out there

Fallon 3