Life costs forcing smaller cars???

ninty9er

a reply in Revelation Joe's search for a "luxury small car" has prompted this post

Are "big" (i.e D Segment +) cars just too expensice to buy and run in Ireland these days.

My dad and grandads always had big cars, between the three of them, 4 Carinas, 2 Records, a Vectra, a Subaru Leone, a Renault 21, 2 Hilman Hunters.....

Only 1 now drives a Carina estate, my mam & dad have a Xsara he's changing for a Yaris and my grandad is in 2 minds as to whether he should get a 2nd Focus or get a Fiesta instead. People can no longer afford to tax and insure anything 1.8 + without a substantial income.

If you consider the avg. industrial wage is 32k the average mortgage now €400k and your basic D segment popular car is €26k. Childcare is approx €6k a child per annum and the average shop is €250 a week. Electricity costs are rising and phone charges are among the highest in Europe.

30 yrs €360k loan is 20.5k a year just over 1/3 of a double income avg. industrial wage
2 kids cost 12k to mind
one wage gone

utility services cost approx 3/4k a year
weekly shop 14k a year
clothes/shoes 3k a year


That leaves 12k a year for a social life, 2 cars (realistically) and their running costs, plus kids birthdays, doctors, Christmas

Realistically leaving 8k to fund and run 2 cars,

Is the 1.4 C segment the only affordable car for industrial Ireland?????

mike65

Thats tosh! 12k for a life on the razz? Are you in Lillies Bordello often?

One can always buy used - If I can get an all singing/dancing executive car for 2000 euro (1996 Audi A6) and run it for about the same as a Ford Focus then so can anyone.

Mike.

mikedragon32

mike65 wrote:

Thats tosh! 12k for a life on the razz? Are you in Lillies Bordello often?

One can always buy used - If I can get an all singing/dancing executive car for 2000 euro (1996 Audi A6) and run it for about the same as a Ford Focus then so can anyone.

Mike.

Agreed!

Perhaps, op, the reason your family are buying smaller cars is because now that they don't have kids etc. to haul around, they really don't need the bigger cars?

ninty9er

Mike. Point missed.... 12k includes taxing insuring fuelling paying for...cars.

I'd give it 4k for Christmas birthdays social life etc.....

leaves 8k for 2 cars...and everybody likes a change.... so every 3 yrs spending 16k combined on 2 cars leaving 8k for 3 yrs running and service of said cars.

10k and 6k for 2 cars isn't really a lot when they have to be economical, and safe for carrying kids....

In fairness. I know accountants who've complained about the cost of fuelling an A6 once it gets to a certain age

peasant

If you factor in ALL costs, including the hidden ones like depreciation, finance costs etc, having a car is an expensive business even if you don't drive it

Add tax, insurance, maintenance and fuel costs to it and it starts to get frightening.

The most cost effective way to run a car is buy second hand, midway through its life cycle (at about 5-6 years old) when depreciation starts to slow and maintenance is still affordable and keep changing every year or two.

After that it's up to the individual how much tax, insurance and fuel cost one can afford and which car is going cheap at the moment.

The older the car the more expensive smaller cars get in comparison to bigger ones and it might actually make more sense to buy a bit of a barge ...especially so if you're getting cheap insurance and don't do massive miles.

cantdecide

life doesn't work like that. i love cars, especially lux cars and if i had €50 or €50k to buy a car with, i'd get a car worth having. who earns avg. industrial wage when their middle aged anyway...

ninty9er

cantdecide wrote:

life doesn't work like that. i love cars, especially lux cars and if i had €50 or €50k to buy a car with, i'd get a car worth having. who earns avg. industrial wage when their middle aged anyway...

My dad!!

mike65

peasant wrote:

The older the car the more expensive smaller cars get in comparison to bigger ones and it might actually make more sense to buy a bit of a barge ...especially so if you're getting cheap insurance and don't do massive miles.

Quite so, thats the logic I'm working with. Me and the boss were talking about this last week, via-a-vis an A6 verses an A4 of same age and engine or BMW 320 v 520, the bigger car makes more sense everytime. More toys as standard esp on 10 years old cars, same mechancials for the most part, no more to tax, virtualy the same insurance but 30% cheaper to buy.

Mike.

spuddy

another point nobody's raised is the standard of small cars nowadays. 10/15 years ago, small cars were not places you'd want to spend a lot of time in. cramped, noisy, no toys ...even airbags were optional extras!

compare that with todays cars of the same class, bigger, safer, more refined, better equipped. it's no wonder more people are choosing them.

just my 2c

unkel

ninty9er wrote:

My dad and grandads always had big cars, between the three of them, 4 Carinas, 2 Records, a Vectra, a Subaru Leone, a Renault 21, 2 Hilman Hunters.....

Big? Those cars are tiny

It costs me about the same buying and running uber-spec 7 year old BMW V8 petrol saloons for 3 years compared to buying a 2 year old Toyota Corolla 1.4 and running it for 3 years

prospect

There is an article in the June/July edition of Irish Car magazine about the Increase in the sales of large cars in Ireland.
Its on page 6 and is titled "Irish go for more large cars"

peasant

It also very much depends what you need your car for.

I for example drive ten kilometers into work and back every day, shopping once a week and the odd trip with the dogs for walkies.

I simply couldn't justify to myself to drive either
a) a new car of any description that is going to lose min. 10+k over 3 years in value
b) an old barge that costs a fortune in tax and insurance, never mind fuel.

So I drive a 99 1.3 (and I made it a 4x4 Jimny to get at least some fun out of car ownership)

My curent cost per week (after 3 years of driving) is about:

15 Euro in fuel (at current prices)
11 Euro insurance
5.2 Euro tax
19 Euro depreciation
4 Euro maintenance

So roughly 55 euro per week ...dear enough when you think of it, although it will be hard to find anything cheaper.


Now do the maths for a new X5

ambro25

Put more simply, Ninty9er your OP appears to be based on buying new (your €26k example) and taking the brunt of the depreciation hit. €26k for a D segment :eek:

Granted, life is dear enough, and getting dearer faster: you forgot rising interest rates on mortgages and car finance (if applicable), and currently wildly-fluctuating petrol prices (which getting nearly as expensive as northern mainland UK in some Dublin places).

But I'm constantly amazed at how many 05/06 cars (all sizes) are on the road, which makes me think that it's a lifestyle choice (a new car vs a second-hand car) and therefore people facing the predicament you raise have only themselves to blame for their narrowing choices, which are self-imposed.

I've never bought new, and never will either. And that's not down to wealth, simply down to base maths (which you seem to enjoy - good for you!).

Mailman

I'm viewing a 1.6 litre car stuffed to the gills with extras today. I currently drive a 2 litre but resent being screwed for tax, insurance and petrol.
I can think of plenty of ways to spend the money that I'll save on down-sizing my car.

junii

ninty9er wrote:

In fairness. I know accountants who've complained about the cost of fuelling an A6 once it gets to a certain age

Do cars start using more petrol/diesel when they get older?

prospect

junii wrote:

Do cars start using more petrol/diesel when they get older?

Not really, infact the opposite is true in some cases.

From brand new, cars fuel consumption improves after a few thousand miles and then levels off.
If the vehicle is properly maintained and serviced, there is no real reason why its fuel consumption would change.

BrianD3

I posted a thread a few months back about the running costs for my car. IIRC it worked out at 10 grand per year and it would be more now as fuel prices have gone up in the meantime. Admittedly I did buy new and my annual mileage is way above average which explained a lot of the cost.

I haven't calculated how much it would cost me to say run say an 8 year old V8 7 series compared to a brand new Toyota Corolla Might calculate that later.

Sometimes though smaller cars are very little or no cheaper to run than slightly larger ones. Eg my family's Ford Focus 1.4 gives poorer fuel economy than my Laguna 1.6. Also the day to day running cost of say a Laguna 1.6 and Megane 1.4 or 1.6 would be very close. Mpg, servicing, tyres, tax, insurance would all be very similar. The depreciation would probably be less on the cheaper car of course.

fifth

Fact is it IS getting more expensive to be on the road, but it's like everything else, shopping, internet, phone, electricity.

I'm driving an opel corsa, which would be classed as a small car, but its got 5 doors and it's bigger than most corsas/small cars out there on the road and i'm quite pleased with it. Only marginally smaller than my neighbours mazda saloon dealy.

Plenty of boot space too. I would love to upgrade it (and plan to) in 2 -3 years. But I will surely be buying used.

ninty9er

But really to be able to buy used someone first has to buy it new and while cars like the 7 Series and S Calss are now the choice for many wealthy Irish people the traditional D Segment which would have been a lot more popular 10-15 years ago has now been engulfed by the expanding size of C Segment cars with smaller engines.

Realistically you either have to be earning 75K as a couple to afford a NEW D segment car and even at 5 years old many average income people will struggle to buy these cars, let alone fuel, tax, insure and maintain them.

My dad would love a Sonata, but a 2.0 engine would be just too much of a financial burden. He'd have an Avensis but can't afford a new enough one ('04) hence the choice of a 1.0 Yaris, which he'd much rather not have.

I showed him an A6 in the UK online, but despite it coming in at about the same cost, the tax and fuel are just too much these days with rates rising and other costs such as ESB and Health insurance increasing.

I can see where people are coming from with 96/7 5 series etc... but most people like something less than 5 years old so that it's not more than 10 when they're selling/trading...

maidhc

ninty9er wrote:

Realistically you either have to be earning 75K as a couple to afford a NEW D segment car and even at 5 years old many average income people will struggle to buy these cars, let alone fuel, tax, insure and maintain them.

My dad would love a Sonata, but a 2.0 engine would be just too much of a financial burden. He'd have an Avensis but can't afford a new enough one ('04) hence the choice of a 1.0 Yaris, which he'd much rather not have.

An 01/02 Avensis would have been much cheaper! Who cares what it will be worth in 6/7 years time, as a new Yaris will have depreciated by a lot more anyhow.

D segment cars are much better value for money than C segment ones even new. They cost about 5k extra, (say 30k rather than 25k) but normally have a higher level of standard equipment, and are far bigger.

I run a 1.8 diesel on a very very meagre apprentice solicitors salary (it is fitted to a Focus, but for the purposes of this discussion it could be an S-MAX or Galaxy). It uses less fuel than a 1.0 yaris, and tax and insurance differences are negligible enough.

ambro25

At the end of the day, it's all down to your budgeting priorities and personal choice, so I don't think there's any point or merit in generalising about car ownership and choices shrinking.

For instance, you post that an '04 Avensis 'would not be new enough' or that a 2.0 Sonata would cost too much in fuel, maintenance and tax, but all these are personal choice/appreciation/criteria.

I doubt that all people earning exactly the same amount and having the same net outgoings 'before car' would arrive at the exact same situation and defo own the same car of the same age. In terms of budget, I could afford to run a recent Beemer or entry-level 180/200, but instead I choose to run a '98 MX5 and a '97 Impreza.

ninty9er

I guess, but is it fair to say that it's now more expensive to run, for example a 2yr old Mondeo than it was ten years ago

maidhc

ninty9er wrote:

I guess, but is it fair to say that it's now more expensive to run, for example a 2yr old Mondeo than it was ten years ago

A mondeo TD 10 years ago did 40mpg (I have a 1995 one!), a 2yr old TDCi should do 50/55mpg easily... and not be a sluggard. The mondeo in 1995 cost £17.5 (€22.5) new. As a relative percentage of income, I'd say it can't be much more nowadays.

As ambro said it is down to personal choice.... opportunity cost.

unkel

prospect wrote:

There is an article in the June/July edition of Irish Car magazine about the Increase in the sales of large cars in Ireland.
Its on page 6 and is titled "Irish go for more large cars"

That's in line with what I see every day. Large Bentley and Maserati saloons are quite common and the typical D24 milf demands nothing less than a Range Rover Sport to drive the kids to school across the road. The rush for the '07 plates will be stronger than ever before. Isn't it wonderful?

TempestSabre

I wonder how people afford it all...

mike65

Was just reading an article that showed that in 2003 the average dealer car shifted 202 new cars, in the UK it was nearly 500! We have along way to go before we are a car ecomony.

Mike.

TempestSabre

mike65 wrote:

Was just reading an article that showed that in 2003 the average dealer car shifted 202 new cars, in the UK it was nearly 500! We have along way to go before we are a car ecomony.

Mike.

Much bigger market though...

prospect

mike65 wrote:

Was just reading an article that showed that in 2003 the average dealer car shifted 202 new cars, in the UK it was nearly 500! We have along way to go before we are a car ecomony.

Mike.

Population of 4 million v's a polulation of 64 million......

joeblogg1

Got to remember that the guys were driving "Big" cars in the old days (70s and early 80s) but they had very small engines.

Example : The standard engines in Escorts, Hillmans etc were 1 Litre or 1.1 Litre
The standard engines in Nissan Bluebirds, Cortinas etc were up to 1.6Litre.

Only very few guys with Granadas etc were driving round in cars over 2L. So while the average body size of cars has gone down the average engine size I would think has gone up considerably

mike65

Guys I'm talking about AVERAGES not total numbers. It suggest that either car sales per capita are not as high here as UK or we have too many garages.

Mike.

_Kaiser_

Well I've just gone from a 98 1.3L petrol Mitsubishi Mirage Coupe to a 02 1.9L 130Bhp TDI VW Passat and despite the extra cost, I'm already very happy with my decision. There's just no comparison between the two in terms of comfort, toys, extra space, better mileage etc

But in fairness I don't have a mortgage/family to pay for so I can justify it easier

pburns

I would say a Ford Focus saloon trouces a Cortina/Hunter (Mondeo class) for interior space because
1. cars in each sector grow with each new version.
2. Improvements in packaging, FWD etc

I drove a friend's Mk2 Granada once & even though it was a tank it was really cramped inside.

maidhc

pburns wrote:

1. cars in each sector grow with each new version.

In South Africa the Avensis is now being marketed as a Camry replacment!

So you do have a point.

unkel

pburns wrote:

I would say a Ford Focus saloon trouces a Cortina/Hunter (Mondeo class) for interior space because
1. cars in each sector grow with each new version.
2. Improvements in packaging, FWD etc

I drove a friend's Mk2 Granada once & even though it was a tank it was really cramped inside.

Yep, isn't a current VW Lupo bigger than the original Golf?

TempestSabre

unkel wrote:

Yep, isn't a current VW Lupo bigger than the original Golf?

I thought they stopped making the Lupo.

unkel

TempestSabre wrote:

I thought they stopped making the Lupo.

They stopped making it last year. But you get my drift. Compare a '74 Golf to a '05 Lupo and most dimensions are similar, even though the Golf is in the small family hatch segment and the Lup is in the segment below the supermini. Two segments down

mike65

Cars are like poeple or are people expanding to fit the cars?

Mike.

maidhc

mike65 wrote:

Cars are like poeple or are people expanding to fit the cars?

Mike.

Manufacturers like to say it is x inches longer, y inches wider and z inches higher?

I was behind a Sierra today, and it really looks a bit smaller than the current focus.

TempestSabre

unkel wrote:

They stopped making it last year. But you get my drift. Compare a '74 Golf to a '05 Lupo and most dimensions are similar, even though the Golf is in the small family hatch segment and the Lup is in the segment below the supermini. Two segments down

Compare the passat of the same era and it also have grown a lot. When you start adding safety and luxury features weight and size has to grow.

mike65

maidhc wrote:

Manufacturers like to say it is x inches longer, y inches wider and z inches higher?

I was behind a Sierra today, and it really looks a bit smaller than the current focus.

The ultimate dimensions are proberly less in all respects but if the car looks bigger its because of all the body sculpting - wide arches, high arse, tweaked high waistline, huge moulded bumpers etc.

Mike.

ninty9er

TempestSabre wrote:

I thought they stopped making the Lupo.

No they just renamed it. It's now called the Fox

TempestSabre

ninty9er wrote:

No they just renamed it. It's now called the Fox

Are you sure

http://www.rte.ie/motors/2006/0808/vwfox.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Fox

ninty9er

TempestSabre wrote:

Are you sure

http://www.rte.ie/motors/2006/0808/vwfox.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Fox

Yup RTÉ second paragraph

Based on the underbits of VW's Polo the three-door Fox replaces the pint-sized Lupo.

maidhc

ninty9er wrote:

Yup RTÉ second paragraph

Was the Fox not designed as a replacment for the ubiquitous Beetle taxi in Mexico City? IIRC 2 dr taxis were made illegal there because of an increase in kidnapping, the Fox with 5drs was developed to fill the void.

TempestSabre

ninty9er wrote:

Yup RTÉ second paragraph

Its a replacement for the Lupo. But its not the same car renamed. :rolleyes: