Provisional Driver Vs Garda checkpoint

hobotron

I'm on my 4th provisional, mainly because for the time I had my 2nd, i couldn't afford insurance, so I didn't drive, and I only got my 3rd as a convenient ID. I like driving now, but I was seriously nervous and took quite a bit of driving to get over it.

Friday night, around 2am, I'm headed down to the local 24 hour tesco to get petrol, with another provisional in my car, and I stop at a garda checkpoint. Suffice to say the Garda's not happy with me not having a full driver in the car, and says I'm driving with no insurance (because of having an invalid licence), and i'll get a court summons.

Now, given its happened over the long weekend, I'm kinda wigging out over it (which doesn't help me being a nervous driver). Any idea on what can / is likely to happen? Also, need to point out I'd like to pass my test and get the full licence, only I did my test, failed largely on Observation and a bit of Progress, and yet I have no real idea how I went wrong, as most people I know with licences think I'm a pretty decent driver.

So, advice? Help?

Big Balls

You'll be asked to put 400 quid in the poor box if anything comes of it.

Apply for your test - if you are as good as your friends say, you'll pass second time.

... there were hundreds caught over the alcohol limit this weekend, be thankful you're not one of them.

whassupp2

I'm in a similar situation. I'm on my 1st provisional. I often drive unaccompanied but only around the locality. If the driving test waiting list was shorter i would probably always be accompanied but if i were relying on people to come with me i wouldn't have half the experience of driving i have already got
Also i need the car to travel to work.

I know 2nd provisional drivers are exempted from having to be accompanied.
Is it not the same for 4th?????.

Little-Devil

hobotron wrote:

Friday night, around 2am, I'm headed down to the local 24 hour tesco to get petrol, with another provisional in my car, and I stop at a garda checkpoint. Suffice to say the Garda's not happy with me not having a full driver in the car, and says I'm driving with no insurance (because of having an invalid licence)
QUOTE]

The garda said you have no insurance because you are on a provisional licence? if thats the case then why do insurance companys continue to insure named drivers on a provisional and pay out on claims? I think he may having talking rubbish, but im not 100% sure.

AlienGav

Hobotron,

I'm just curious, but when the Guard found out you were driving unaccompanied with a provisional, what did he/she do with the car? Were you forced to park your car up and walk home? Or did the Guard still let you drive it? Even though they've said you're uninsured??

Big Balls

Technically, your insurance would be void.

But I have never, ever heard of a company not paying out in this situation.

At the same time, 4th provisional is a joke. It's not an Airbus A380 you're being asked to fly when you get into a car!

leeroybrown

Little-Devil wrote:

The garda said you have no insurance because you are on a provisional licence? if thats the case then why do insurance companys continue to insure named drivers on a provisional and pay out on claims? I think he may having talking rubbish, but im not 100% sure.

The insurace companies cover people and pay out as it's essentially good business for them given the number of provisional drivers on the roads. I'll need to do a bit of digging to confirm this but I think there was a court case recently where the judge ruled that an unacompanied provisional driver is essentially driving without a licence and is legally speaking uninsured. If I remember correctly the basic direction of the ruling is that if a Garda wishes to do anything about an unacompanied provisional driver his only avenue is to charge them with driving without a licence or insurance.

hobotron

AlienGav wrote:

Hobotron,

I'm just curious, but when the Guard found out you were driving unaccompanied with a provisional, what did he/she do with the car? Were you forced to park your car up and walk home? Or did the Guard still let you drive it? Even though they've said you're uninsured??

Nope. Drove straight into the Tescos, filled up, went around where the garda stop was and on home. She was more stern than cruel, but when I did ask what she meant by "summons" she seemed a little peeved I didn't know what she meant.

Creamy Goodness

whassupp2 wrote:

I know 2nd provisional drivers are exempted from having to be accompanied.
Is it not the same for 4th?????.

as far as i'm aware it's 1st, 3rd and so forth licences (4th/5th/6th...) that you need to be accompanied.

Big Balls

leeroybrown wrote:

The insurace companies cover people and pay out as it's essentially good business for them given the number of provisional drivers on the roads. I'll need to do a bit of digging to confirm this but I think there was a court case recently where the judge ruled that an unacompanied provisional driver is essentially driving without a licence and is legally speaking uninsured. If I remember correctly the basic direction of the ruling is that if a Garda wishes to do anything about an unacompanied provisional driver his only avenue is to charge them with driving without a licence or insurance.

It was one judge as reported by many of the papers and when it was broken into plain terms, he/she (can't remember) was saying nothing new.

hobotron

Big Balls wrote:

At the same time, 4th provisional is a joke. It's not an Airbus A380 you're being asked to fly when you get into a car!

No arguement here. I didn't drive enough on my 1st or 2nd because the Insurance was so high, and for the brief while my dad had a company car I was insured on, I was all kinds of nervous while driving. It took a serious amount of encouragement from my aul fella (and fair dues to him, he had the patience to get it out of me) before I was comfy behind the wheel, and that was at the end of my 3rd licence (my test and my licence ending came within about 2 months of each other). Now, I'm pretty zen, bar when I get stopped by the cops, but its kinda enfuriating i have still another 4-6 months to wait on my test, unless I get a letter from my employer, who I don't really want to hassle over it.

leeroybrown

leeroybrown wrote:

I'll need to do a bit of digging to confirm this but I think there was a court case recently where the judge ruled that an unacompanied provisional driver is essentially driving without a licence and is legally speaking uninsured.

It was actually a case relating to non-display of L-plates so it isn't actually directly related to this. The original thread about this is here (please don't post on it as it's pretty much dead now).

Essentially they can't really do anything about the provisional/learner situation as there are so many drivers on them and they don't want to spend the money to sort it out properly (even if they are finding a way to put in some more non-permenant testers).

whassupp2

In fairness the waiting list at my test centre has been halved in the last year.

leeroybrown

Big Balls wrote:

At the same time, 4th provisional is a joke. It's not an Airbus A380 you're being asked to fly when you get into a car!

If the licencing/testing system were in any reasonable condition I'd agree but given the variable waits and insurance prices involved it's hardly surprising that some cases are like this. I passed my test first time but between not having (or needing) a car, the massive test waits and a cancellation due to college exams I was nearly at the end of my second provisional.

Unfortunately the joke is on us the Irish drivers.

Stark

Cremo wrote:

as far as i'm aware it's 1st, 3rd and so forth licences (4th/5th/6th...) that you need to be accompanied.

Yup. Or in easier to understand terms, your 2nd is the only one that allows you to drive unaccompanied. I wonder what their logic was when they made up that law, not that I'm complaining at the moment

steveland?

Stark wrote:

Yup. Or in easier to understand terms, your 2nd is the only one that allows you to drive unaccompanied. I wonder what their logic was when they made up that law, not that I'm complaining at the moment

Don't you need to have done a test (and failed) or have applied for your test to get your third and subsequent licences?

If that's the case then the logic must be that if you've done your test and failed then you're not ready for the road on your own so have to be accompanied from your 3rd provisional onwards.

Not that that even makes a lot of sense but does a lot on the road these days?

hobotron

steveland? wrote:

Don't you need to have done a test (and failed) or have applied for your test to get your third and subsequent licences?

I applied for my 3rd licence after applying for my test. Since at the time I was using the licence as an ID and doing no driving (still too expensive/personal doubt about ability to control car without peeing myself), I wasn't overtly concerned about passing, and out of coincidence, both times I cancelled the test, I happened to be out of the counrty at the time. Only when the 3rd run (and thus, final or loose the fee) came around did I say it was time to try, and went at it hell for leather for the 8 or so weeks before my test. I failed pretty narrowly too, which was something of a compliment (ok, by narrowly I mean 14 grade 2s, mainly in observation, and 1 in progress?!?), but months on, and a new car later (old one got burnt out by some scumbags), I feel ready to take and pass the test, only I've another 4-6 months wait, and i don't have the cash or time to only spend my driving time with an instructor or my dad in the car beside me (only 2 of my mates have full licences, including one who was given a van for work!).

Yeah, its ridiculous, as is my situation, but any advice on my problem at hand?

EDIT: Just got a letter from my boss, he was totally cool about it. Feel like a bit of a plank now, that I didn't go and ask him sooner ...

Wishbone Ash

Stark wrote:

your 2nd is the only one that allows you to drive unaccompanied. I wonder what their logic was when they made up that law

It was to encourage drivers to pass their test as soon as possible or they would be penalised by having to be accompanied for any subsequent licence.


Despite all the complaints from learner drivers about the waiting times for the test, it is a simple fact that many cancel theirs when called. There are approximately 500 cancellations/no shows per week. The vast majority of these, in percentage terms, are for tests in category B. Very few in categories A/C/C1/CE/C1E/D1/D1E/D cancel their tests.

A provisional licence is valid for two years. I don't know any test centre where the waiting time is that long. A second provisional licence gives four years driving and people blame the test waiting times. It's just laziness relying on the safety net of the provisional licence system.

(The accompanied driver rule does not apply to those who have held a provisional licence before 12th August 1985.)

nicabhac

I actually rang my insurance company to see would i be covered driving unaccompanied (on 1st prov.) and they said I would. Mind you Ive got third party so if i had an accident they wouldnt be paying my personal costs anyway, just whoever else was involved.
But even though i'm covered insurance-wise theres still the whole legal thing with fines and points and that malarky.

Pataman

(The accompanied driver rule does not apply to those who have held a provisional licence before 12th August 1985.)

Please tell me that there aren't people driving on provisionals that long. They should be off the road. I think to renew your insurance you should have to include a photocopy of all the driving licences covered. This might encourage people to apply for their tests.

Wishbone Ash

Pataman wrote:

Please tell me that there aren't people driving on provisionals that long. They should be off the road. I think to renew your insurance you should have to include a photocopy of all the driving licences covered. This might encourage people to apply for their tests.

Yup - I know a married couple both of whom are on provisionals since the 1970s. I remember discussing this with them and they said that there was no incentive for then to get a full licence as they were not required to be accompanied and their insurance costs were minimal. (I presume that they must attempt a test every two years?? sounds like a big incentive to me!)

Regarding insurance - with older people it's irrevelant. Provisional v. full only really affects young or new drivers.

Stark

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I presume that they must attempt a test every two years?? sounds like a big incentive to me!

Well they don't have to show up for the test, just provide evidence of having applied for it. Although that would mean renewing their licence every year which sounds like a load of hassle.

Do you know if they do show up for the test every 2 years and fail it? I guess they're probably not willing to let go of bad habits. Old dogs and all that.

Wishbone Ash

Stark wrote:

Well they don't have to show up for the test, just provide evidence of having applied for it. Although that would mean renewing their licence every year which sounds like a load of hassle.

Do you know if they do show up for the test every 2 years and fail it? I guess they're probably not willing to let go of bad habits. Old dogs and all that.

Yes it sounds like a lot of hassle! I must make a few discrete enquiries. They would otherwise appear as 'normal' drivers but I would find it embarassing having L plates in my 40/50s.

mike65

This thread is wrong in so many ways

Mike.

dermot_sheehan

Ok, basically by driving unaccompanied you are violating the terms of your licence. What the case in cork held was that the regulations in question are not "penal regulations" under the road traffic act, they merely establish the conditions for validity of the licence. The Exact piece of law is the s. 20(6)(b) Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 1999 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI352Y1999.html#ZZSI352Y1999A20

Which provide:

(b) Subject to paragraph (c) of this sub-article, a provisional licence shall, on coming into effect, licence the holder to drive a vehicle of any category for which the licence is granted on any occasion during the period specified in the licence provided that the following conditions are complied with—


(i) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category A1, A or M shall not carry a passenger in or on such a vehicle,



(ii) a person provisionally licensed to drive a vehicle shall not carry in the vehicle any passenger for reward,



(iii) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1, or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless there are displayed on the vehicle rectangular plates or signs bearing the letter "L" not less than fifteen centimetres high in red on a white ground, in clearly visible vertical positions to the front and rear of the vehicle,



(iv) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1 or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless he or she is accompanied by and is under the supervision of a qualified person,



(v) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category W shall not carry a passenger in or on such a vehicle unless the vehicle is constructed or adapted to carry a passenger and such passenger is a qualified person,



(vi) notwithstanding article 6 of these Regulations, a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1 or D shall not drive such a vehicle while the vehicle is drawing a trailer.



(c) (i) The condition set out in paragraph (b) (iv) of this sub-article shall not apply while the holder of the licence is driving a vehicle in the course of undergoing a driving test or driving a vehicle of a category in respect of which he or she holds a valid certificate of competency, or, where that certificate contains a statement that in relation to a category of vehicle it is limited to a specified type of vehicle, while he or she is driving a vehicle of that type.



(ii) The condition at paragraph (b) (iv) of this sub-article shall not apply to a vehicle which is constructed or adapted for use by a person suffering from a physical handicap and which is not constructed or adapted to carry a passenger.



(iii) The condition at paragraph (b) (iv) of this sub-article shall not apply to the driving of a vehicle in category B by a person to whom a provisional licence in respect of vehicles in class C under the revoked regulations was granted prior to 12 August, 1985 or to a person who is driving a vehicle in category B during the period of validity of a second provisional licence granted to him or her in respect of such vehicles.

Notice the bits I highlighted, your provisional licence only licences you when driving accompanied. You are therefore driving unlicensed, which is an offence under the Road Traffic Act and are most probabl driving without insurance since most insurance contracts as a condition require you to be licenced.

Driving without a licence is an offence under the s. 38 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 as amended by the Road Traffic Act 2002 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002_12.html carrying a fine of up to €2,500 and up to 6 months in prison and up to 5 points if it goes to court or 2 points and €80 if by a fixed penalty notice. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA24Y1961S38.html I'm not sure if the relevant order has been signed yet to allow this offence to be dealt with by a fixed penalty but if the garda says she is going to summons you it means you are going to court.

Driving without insurance is more serious. It's an offence under s. 56 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA24Y1961S56.html It too carries a €2,500 fine and up to 6 months in prison it however carries an automatic 1 year ban. The ban can be avoided if you can show good reason to the judge why it should not be imposed however if the ban is not imposed it is an automatic 5 points on your licence.

Wishbone Ash

Apologies - off topic re Section (b) (iii):

Category ED (large bus with trailer) is not very common - but I have it, There are no facilities for testing it in Ireland. If you have a full D and apply for it they are obliged to grant it. It seems weird then that you have to be accompanied by an ED holder even though you can get it without a test.

hargo

In answer to the origional query you may be prosecuted for the licencing offence but the no insurance is not valid. Once you hold a licence or have held one even if its out of date your insurance is valid except where disqualified. You may of course be prosecuted for no insurance but the case will fail.

Triangle

Big Balls wrote:

Technically, your insurance would be void.

But I have never, ever heard of a company not paying out in this situation.

At the same time, 4th provisional is a joke. It's not an Airbus A380 you're being asked to fly when you get into a car!

What probably would happen is the insurance company would pay and claimback off the MIB. But payout would be at the descretion of the Insurance company.

hobotron

gabhain7 wrote:

Ok...

Any word on any provisonal drivers being done to that degree? I'm just wondering are they treating us like people with no licence and insurance, or different from that?

dermot_sheehan

Remember what I stated were the maximum penalties (with the exception of the mandatory ban/5 points upon conviction for no insurance and mandatory 5 points upon conviction for no valid licence). There is also a mandatory endorsement I forgot to mention for a no-insurance conviction (big nasty stamp on your licence that tells the world/gardai/your insurance company that you were a muppet in the past for driving with no valid insurance)

I'm not sure what the courts are handing down, I think the non-insurance is treated severly enough fine wise. The no licence I don't know what the standard penalty district court judges are currently handing out, though the 5 points would be annoying enough. If it's prison you're worried about you are extremly highly incredibly unlikely to go to prison for a first offence for either of these offences.

Generally these offences don't come up much because the gardai turn a blind eye. If they chose to crack down (like the cops in the uk who would prosecute for these offences for an unaccompanied learner) the provisional driving public could find their lives made very difficult very fast.

Our man in Havana

AFAIK it was a district court ruling which is not binding and has yet to be appealed to the circuit court. Until the High Court rules in relation to this there is no definite law on the matter just the opinion of one district court judge which may be overturned shortly by a higher court.

jimmycrackcorm

I'm always perplexed at peoples attitudes to provisional drivers. How many test failures are over minor points? If so many of the fatalities on our roads are down to speeding and drink-driving then how does a driving test solve these?

A case in point hilighted in the media last year was the death of ayoung driver who had only passed his test a few days previously.

dermot_sheehan

Bond-007 wrote:

AFAIK it was a district court ruling which is not binding and has yet to be appealed to the circuit court. Until the High Court rules in relation to this there is no definite law on the matter just the opinion of one district court judge which may be overturned shortly by a higher court.

Yes it was only District Court and I don't think it is being appealed.

But looking at the road traffic acts however it appears the judge was correct. Driving in violation of a condition on a provisional licence isn't covered by a penal regulation (enacted by the minister under I think s. 109 of the RTA 1961), it's rather a condition precedent as to whether or not a provisional licence document has the effect of licensing your driving.

dermot_sheehan

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I'm always perplexed at peoples attitudes to provisional drivers. How many test failures are over minor points? If so many of the fatalities on our roads are down to speeding and drink-driving then how does a driving test solve these?

A case in point hilighted in the media last year was the death of ayoung driver who had only passed his test a few days previously.

If you can't drive for 30mins in a test you've been waiting a year for which gives you some leeway as to minor faults (i.e. you can rack up so many blue faults without failing), it is indicative of your driving standard in general.

Many of the fatalities are due to speeding and drink driving. They have speeding and drink driving in other countries however without the same fatality rate as ours. I don't know of any other country that has 10%+ of its driving population on the road having never passed a practical driving test and I don't think honestly it's a tolerable situation.

The fact that people drink and drive and speed does not excuse people driving whilst unqualified.

jesus_thats_gre

hobotron wrote:

she seemed a little peeved I didn't know what she meant.

Sorry but there is your problem there.. Good old banners.

hobotron

Gabhain7, i was failed on Mirrors, Observation and Progress. I think the tester assumed that because I was not overtly and painfully obviously showing I was using mirrors, it meant I was skiving. I'd be happy to comply with the rules, if it didn't take a year's wait between tests.

Either way, any idea on what will likely happen? Will the DPP bother with my case? Whats the percentage of garda who turn up at summons for provisional licence drivers? Realistically, what's the likely result of this?

mloc123

If it goes to court and thats a big if I'd say the judge will throw it out for being a waste of time.

event

ooh, tough one and worrying

on my first day driving, was stopped at a checkpoint, was bricking it

Stark

I reckon the garda in question was trying to give you a good scare by saying it would go to court. I'd say sit back, relax, it'll probably never come. If it does, then you can deal with it then. No point worrying yourself now though.

opus

Stark wrote:

Well they don't have to show up for the test, just provide evidence of having applied for it. Although that would mean renewing their licence every year which sounds like a load of hassle.

Do you know if they do show up for the test every 2 years and fail it? I guess they're probably not willing to let go of bad habits. Old dogs and all that.

Whenever I explain the Irish system to people from abroad, they just don't believe me! First question is always "so you can fail your test & then drive away from the test centre & continue driving????"

Stark

Sure the test result is decided by a toss of a coin anyway

Stark

Stark wrote:

Sure the test result is decided by a toss of a coin anyway

thats very true and also depends what sort of mood the tester is in, they have to fail "x" amount is what i've been told.