Dispensation from Disparity of Cult

wingnut

I've done the background research on this but would appreciate advice if anyone has gone though this process personally. I wish to marry a roman cathotlic in the church, but no longer consider myself to be roman catholic. I have been baptised. I have researached and verifyed with a priest that I can do this by:

1. Writing to my bishop and get my baptism riscinded
2. Obtaining a dispensation for disparity of cult
3. Getting married in the RC church at an RC ceremony, by saying my own vows.

Has anyone done this in practice?? I have been informed there should be no hitches but I am slighty concerned that the 'church mafia' might find some way to thwart my efforts.

Asiaprod

wingnut wrote:

1. Writing to my bishop and get my baptism rescinded

I really am a little confused, .............. <edit, sorry I miss read that>

2. Obtaining a dispensation for disparity of cult

What cult, are you an active member of some mysterious cult?

3. Getting married in the RC church at an RC ceremony, by saying my own vows.

Huh, that sounds crazy. If these are the directions you have been given I see absolutely no point in even considering getting married in a church. All these point serve to do is further alienate you. You must do this, you must do that. I thought the whole point here would be that you loved someone and had decided to set up a life together. How gracious of the church to condescend to allow you to have a church wedding. However, with all these restrictions in place, is it even legal in the eyes of their God. Is it even worth the paper it is written on. If you are doing this for the other half I do understand where you are coming from, but nothing would make me belittle myself in this way. Just out of curiosity, what about any children. Did they have nothing to say on this issue. I thought that it was also part of the agreement that you would also let the children be brought up in the faith. Has that changed?

robindch

> Getting married in the RC church at an RC ceremony, by saying my own vows.

I can't imagine that you'll be allowed to do this, unless the marriage vows are substantially the same as what the RC church wants, and as Asiaprod says, one of them is that you have to indoctrinate your kids to be catholics too.

The last time that this came up, I suggested that you agree a trade-off with your wife-to-be: you'll go through the smells and bells of a straight-from-the-book catholic marriage, if the wife agrees that any kids will be brought up without any influence from organized religion.

wingnut

Asiaprod wrote:

What cult, are you an active member of some mysterious cult?

The catholic church considers itself a 'cult' and in this regard and I would be disparate from it. Its not a lot of hasstle, just a few letters, then my partner gets a church Wedding and I get to be true to my beliefs. If push came to shove one of us would give way, but why should we have to?

Asiaprod wrote:

is it even legal in the eyes of their God

It is fully supported and qualified in canon law, and although it is not so common in this country takes place a lot in countrys where interfaith marrigaes are common (i.e. USA).

As regards the kids SHE has to sign to say she will do everything she can to ensure the kids are raised catholic, I don't. I am happy with them being raised catholics and making their own minds up (i.e. coming to their senses) when they are older.

I am really not looking for a theological debated on this issue, just advice from someone with practical experience.

Dades

wingnut wrote:

I am really not looking for a theological debated on this issue, just advice from someone with practical experience.

I'm still hazy as to what you are trying to find out.

Obviously you can get married in a church if you both sign some documents (that are not legally binding of course). But instead you want to divorce yourself from the RC church first, and then apply to get married in one? If you're cool with your kids being raised as catholics why the bee in your bonnet about getting married as a RC?

I got married to a RC in a church last year without hesitation because I don't have a God to offend. The people I care about are the ones in the church for whom it was important for me to be there.

wingnut

The Atheist wrote:

why the bee in your bonnet about getting married as a RC?

The bee is that I would have to say I believe in God and various other things that I don't believe in. I feel I would be lying to myself acknowledging such things. It annoys me that I am still considerd an RC because my name is on the baptism registers. To date I was happy enough ignoring the church but I specifically do not want to take 'empty oaths' and pay lip service.

I do not belive in the church and I do not want last rights, a priest at my funeral etc. I feel this can be served best by my removal from the baptism register. It is something I had always considered but now I have good reason to do.

Dades

wingnut wrote:

To date I was happy enough ignoring the church but I specifically do not want to take 'empty oaths' and pay lip service.

Do you have other beliefs, or just a 'lack of belief'?

What I don't get is you allowing any kids to be raised as RCs, but you won't go through the motions in a 5 minute ring-swapping ceremony. Most of the people who get married in churches these days haven't been in one in years, save for funerals or other weddings.

wingnut

I do want to go through the ceremony - thats the whole point of the dispensation. I have no problem letting my kids getting baptised etc becuase I think they will make up their own minds when they are older.

Dades

You sound like you're set on that course anyway, so good luck with it.
Afraid I don't have any info on dispensations and whatnot. I just gave myself one.

wingnut

Yes, I said from the start I was set on it. All I wanted was to speak with someone who had gone and done it before.

robindch

> I have no problem letting my kids getting baptised etc becuase I think
> they will make up their own minds when they are older.

They'll find it very difficult to make up their minds if they've been indoctrinated when they were young. That's why the religious orders used to run all the schools -- to make sure that they could mould the minds of impressionable kids and thereby have enough willing recruits to keep the show on the road!

Instead, why not teach them equally about all religions, togther with atheism, then let them choose which one suits when they're able to? Put them under no guilt-pressure to conform...?

Asiaprod

wingnut wrote:

I do want to go through the ceremony - thats the whole point of the dispensation. I have no problem letting my kids getting baptised etc becuase I think they will make up their own minds when they are older.

wingnut, you really are not making much sense. It is plain to see that you are trying to balance emotional and religious aspects with personal beliefs and it just will not equate. Looking to find someone who did similar is not a solution. Frankly, if you don`t believe in the God in question then you are really only playing a role. So do it. However, while I recommend you just go along with it, in the case of any children, that is a very different matter and you would do well to start thinking now on how you will handle that. But fear not, when you do become a Dad, you will see it all very differently;)

Talliesin

Asiaprod wrote:

What cult, are you an active member of some mysterious cult?

The phrase uses "cult" in one of its original senses, rather than the sense that came into favour in the 60s and 70s and is now beginning to die out again.

Asiaprod wrote:

wingnut, you really are not making much sense. It is plain to see that you are trying to balance emotional and religious aspects with personal beliefs and it just will not equate.

It looks to me that they guy is trying to get married and has enough respect for his partner's faith to both understand her wanting the marriage to be according to that Church's rites, and to not be play-acting his part in them.

Asiaprod

Talliesin wrote:

The phrase uses "cult" in one of its original senses, rather than the sense that came into favour in the 60s and 70s and is now beginning to die out again.

Thank you for clearing that up. I really was surprised by the usage of cult.

It looks to me that they guy is trying to get married and has enough respect for his partner's faith to both understand her wanting the marriage to be according to that Church's rites, and to not be play-acting his part in them.

And I believe that I said the same thing i.e. the emotional aspect. Maybe that did not come across? However, I have to disagree with you on the "and to not be play-acting his part in the." How can he do anything else? He has openly stated how he felt. I get the feeling that you may be misunderstanding my post. I have the greatest sympathy for wingnut and his current situation and if you look back you will find this is not the first post we have exchanged on this issue. My apologies if you though I was a little strong, I was surprised.

lostexpectation

wingnut wrote:

I've done the background research on this but would appreciate advice if anyone has gone though this process personally. I wish to marry a roman cathotlic in the church, but no longer consider myself to be roman catholic. I have been baptised. I have researached and verifyed with a priest that I can do this by:

1. Writing to my bishop and get my baptism riscinded
2. Obtaining a dispensation for disparity of cult
3. Getting married in the RC church at an RC ceremony, by saying my own vows.

Has anyone done this in practice?? I have been informed there should be no hitches but I am slighty concerned that the 'church mafia' might find some way to thwart my efforts.

it seems a little strange that you have to go further into absolving yourself from the church so you can get married in a church, (but not subject to its laws).

What does your wife think?

wingnut

Well, she is not my wife yet, if she was I wouldn't be posting this We are together over 5 years, she is 24 I am 25. She is all for it, thinks its a great solution.
My parents aren't too happy about it (oddly enough my mother seems to have a problem with it - even though she is not religious in the least, whereas my father who is a practising RC has said very little).

My mother is convinced that if we split up and there was a custody battle she would get the kids because I wouldn't be a Roman Catholic!!!! Talk about being optimistic about our future. I can't believe the reactions I am getting, very few of my friends are supportive most are telling me just to go through the motions. Maybe I am being awkward but I just don't want to 'go through the motions' when I don't believe.

We also haven't mentioned it to her parents who are a generation older than mine. I don't think they would quite understand so maybe the less said there the better.

it seems a little strange that you have to go further into absolving yourself from the church so you can get married in a church

This stems from the fact that the dispensation is designed for an RC marrying a person of a different faith in the church. As 99.9% on non-believers who were baptised into the RC church are happy to go through the motions it was never envisaged to be used in this way.

I just have major issues with the church and its teachings and do not want to appear to subscribe to it/them. I am open minded enough to accept that my partner does.

staple

robindch wrote:

Instead, why not teach them equally about all religions, togther with atheism, then let them choose which one suits when they're able to? Put them under no guilt-pressure to conform...?

If you teach that all religions and atheism are equal beliefs then you are indoctrinating with relativism. 'Choose which one suits'? If you think you should 'choose which one suits' then you can't think Christianity has anything intrinsic over Buddhism or Atheism; your true religion is relativism/individualism and your Christianity is just an add on, coming after a more fundamental belief.

If you wish to indoctrinate kids with relativism, then fire ahead, but don't pretend it's not indoctrination.

lostexpectation

wingnut wrote:

Well, she is not my wife yet, if she was I wouldn't be posting this We are together over 5 years, she is 24 I am 25. She is all for it, thinks its a great solution.
My parents aren't too happy about it (oddly enough my mother seems to have a problem with it - even though she is not religious in the least, whereas my father who is a practising RC has said very little).

I just have major issues with the church and its teachings and do not want to appear to subscribe to it/them. I am open minded enough to accept that my partner does.

well you have the priest support you should be able to go through the process, please come back and tell us how it went.

robindch

> you are indoctrinating with relativism. If you wish to indoctrinate kids
> with relativism, then fire ahead, but don't pretend it's not indoctrination.

Could you say, please, what you mean by "relativism" and why you think it's such a bad thing?

hairyheretic

staple wrote:

If you teach that all religions and atheism are equal beliefs then you are indoctrinating with relativism. 'Choose which one suits'? If you think you should 'choose which one suits' then you can't think Christianity has anything intrinsic over Buddhism or Atheism; your true religion is relativism/individualism and your Christianity is just an add on, coming after a more fundamental belief.

Can you prove that any system of belief is superior to others?

I believe that my beliefs are the right one for me. So does everyone else, whatever their beliefs are.

BrianCalgary

hairyheretic wrote:

Can you prove that any system of belief is superior to others?.

I don't think to your satisfaction.

hairyheretic wrote:

I believe that my beliefs are the right one for me. So does everyone else, whatever their beliefs are.

If you where to have children, what would you teach them? Robin, comes across as believing taht if you teach your kids Chritianity it is indoctrination, but if you teach them ? anything but, it is being honest.

Relativism is the understanding that what you wish to, or what you do believe is perfectly alright.

robindch

> I don't think to your satisfaction.

Interesting. Would that suggest to you that perhaps the other person's view might have some validity?

> if you teach your kids Chritianity it is indoctrination, but if you teach them
> anything but, it is being honest.

Kids aren't "taught" christianity, but rather they are told from their earliest years by their parents (usually), that some specific interpretation of the bible is true and that all other interpretations are false. This isn't teaching, this is indoctrination -- the teaching of some particular doctrine as an absolute truth. And it's not limited to christianity, as I can't think of any other religion possibly other than Janaism, which doesn't do the same thing.

Schools which indoctrinate kids to one political party or another are considered well outside the pale everywhere except North Korea. But why is it considered ok, even good, to indoctrinate with religion?

> Relativism is the understanding that what you wish to, or what
> you do believe is perfectly alright.

Crumbs, sounds like an awful system! I've certainly never met anybody in my life who's a "relativist" (though I'll accept that Dubya comes close). Have you, or anybody else here, met anybody who thinks that it's ok to do absolutely anything they want?

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

Kids aren't "taught" christianity, but rather they are told from their earliest years by their parents (usually), that some specific interpretation of the bible is true and that all other interpretations are false. This isn't teaching, this is indoctrination -- the teaching of some particular doctrine as an absolute truth. And it's not limited to christianity, as I can't think of any other religion possibly other than Janaism, which doesn't do the same thing.

Kids believe to be true whatever their parents tell them. If you are an atheist and you tell your kids there is no god, then your kids will believe that to be true, and now they have been indoctrinated. If you tell your kids that democracy is best they believe that to be true, indoctrination. Teach them right wing policies, belief; left wing policies, belief; I could go on and on.
Schools which indoctrinate kids to one political party or another are considered well outside the pale everywhere except North Korea. But why is it considered ok, even good, to indoctrinate with religion?

robindch wrote:

> Relativism is the understanding that what you wish to, or what
> you do believe is perfectly alright.

Crumbs, sounds like an awful system! I've certainly never met anybody in my life who's a "relativist" (though I'll accept that Dubya comes close). Have you, or anybody else here, met anybody who thinks that it's ok to do absolutely anything they want?

I didn't say do anything you want, I said BELIEVE anything you want. Which could lead to do anything you want and you very own moral system. Christianity teaches many moral absolutes, there are many who reject it and then come up with their own moral structure based upon what they feel to be best for them. And yes, I know many, many people that fit into this category; having their own moral structure because it feels right for them.

hairyheretic

BrianCalgary wrote:

I don't think to your satisfaction.

Probably not then, since I don't believe any belief system (my own included) is superior to all others. I believe what I've found is the right one for me.

BrianCalgary wrote:

If you where to have children, what would you teach them? Robin, comes across as believing taht if you teach your kids Chritianity it is indoctrination, but if you teach them ? anything but, it is being honest.

At the moment, I'm not really sure. If asked I would explain what I believed, and why I was doing whatever I was doing. The level of explanation would be determined by the age / maturity of the child. If I was asked about the beliefs of others I'd answer what I could, and google the rest

If they wanted to join in, again, I'd respond on the age / maturity. I would not have them take part in anything if they did not want to.

Each of us has to find our own path.