Alcohol in Catholicism

Medina

Hey ,
I said in the title Catholicism cos I'm not sure about the other branches of Christianity, but can anyone tell me why they think alcohol is allowed?

With all the destruction it causes, I can't see why God would allow it. After all it doesn't really exist on its own this way, its man made and to be honest it ruins so many peoples lives and leads so many people into sin, I don't see any reason why God would have allowed it people to drink it.

I'm well aware of the wedding at Cana story in the bible and of course of the use of wine during the last supper.

However neither of these stories give any justification for alcohol. And to be honest I can't see the Son of God drinking it or creating it either. So that the people of the wedding can 'get merry?'. And in the Last Supper they could have used juice or something, the liquid itself has no importance.

To me it appears as a corruption because there were too many followers who didn't want to give up lifes 'little pleasures'.

Unconvinced.

robindch

> With all the destruction it causes

While it does cause destruction, it also is the source of considerable pleasure for people who can enjoy it sensibly. You could compare it to a high cliff -- jump off the top and you'll kill yourself, but sitting there for a while can allow you to enjoy the view! Should god therefore have disallowed cliffs too?

> I can't see why God would allow it. After all it doesn't really exist on its
> own this way, its man made

Alcohol is a thoroughly natural substance, made by naturally-occurring yeasts and does exist naturally in nature. If you're into nature films, try renting Animals Are Beautiful People (there's a copy in Lazer, Ranelagh) which has a few very funny scences in which primates other than humans get sozzled, together with elephants and some very wobbly giraffes, all completely plastered from the effects of the fermented fruit of the Marula tree. And they suffer from hangovers too

Dades

Medina,

Where do you draw the line? For every one person whose life suffers from alchohol there's 100 who enjoy it's effects in moderation.

If something has the potential to be harmful or provides the opportunity for temptation should it be disallowed? There's a thread in the Islam forum regarding whether dancing is allowed, as it promotes irreverant thoughts. Same idea - different level.

The world has sharp edges. It's up to us to navigate around them.

BrianCalgary

The Atheist wrote:

Medina,

Where do you draw the line? For every one person whose life suffers from alchohol there's 100 who enjoy it's effects in moderation.

If something has the potential to be harmful or provides the opportunity for temptation should it be disallowed? There's a thread in the Islam forum regarding whether dancing is allowed, as it promotes irreverant thoughts. Same idea - different level.

The world has sharp edges. It's up to us to navigate around them.

Well put Atheist. I would add from a Christian perspective that God gave us many activities that we can safely enjoy. It is when we overindulge and when the activity becomes all consuming does it become bad.

I can enjoy the odd Guinness. I can also say thank you, no after 1. There are those who can not say no and will continue on and abuse it.

The odd bit of chocolate = good. So many that you end up with high cholesterol and heart failure = bad. ( this is where I need to exercise high self control).

Medina

Good point Atheist I suppose I have to take it into consideration. And I started that thread on the Islamic forum!!:eek:

But dancing doesn't impair your mind in any way. And drinking definitely does. Just look at the statistics on how much alcohol it takes to impair your driving abilities. Very very little

I think the thing is, similar to drugs, alcohol is an addictive substance. Now some people would argue that food can be an addictive substance and thats true.

But I think nobody in their heart could admit to themselves that alcohol and food or dancing or music are ultimately the same.

I'm not sure what it is, but it has a dangerous edge to it, you can't even tell when exactly you cross the line to tipsiness and then on to drunkenness.

I understand that people can enjoy it in moderation. The problem is that it is addictive and lots of people lose a sense of what 'moderation' actually is.
Even if it wasn't addictive, you can't really say that what it does to you in terms of your behaviour, vision, balance, and rationale actually benefits you in any way.

Really, God knows how alcohol would be the cause of a lot of social and religious problems and for that reason alone, I can't imagine why He would condone it. Why didn't He say 'only have one glass' then. Because anything after that definitely has an adverse effect on you though you may or may not know it.

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

chocolate

Chocolate is not the same as alcohol.

Chocolate does not have an affect on you mind, but alcohol does.

Chocolate does not destroy families, but alcohol does.

BrianCalgary

Medina wrote:

Really, God knows how alcohol would be the cause of a lot of social and religious problems and for that reason alone, I can't imagine why He would condone it. Why didn't He say 'only have one glass' then. Because anything after that definitely has an adverse effect on you though you may or may not know it.

Back in my heavy drinking days I read this verse: Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. (Ephesiand 5:18). I stopped.

So I would argue that God does say 'only one glass' in His own little way.

Medina

Thanks for the enthusiasm Babyvaio, I just don't want this to get into a comparing session between all the things in the world.

Can we all just focus on alcohol without relating to anything else, just on the pro's and con's of alcohol and why it is that it appears to be condoned within Catholicism.

Medina

BrianCalgary wrote:

Back in my heavy drinking days I read this verse: Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. (Ephesiand 5:18). I stopped.

So I would argue that God does say 'only one glass' in His own little way.

I have to be honest Brian and say that to me you seem to be disappointingly trying to fit a quotation around your behaviour. You are saying well 'one' isn't going to get you 'drunk'. Do you take the rest of the Bible this literally?

aidan24326

Medina wrote:

Hey ,
I said in the title Catholicism cos I'm not sure about the other branches of Christianity, but can anyone tell me why they think alcohol is allowed?
With all the destruction it causes, I can't see why God would allow it.

Medina, alcohol doesn't cause any destruction it's the people who choose to drink it to excess who do that. If it wasn't alcohol it would be something else. Even indigenous jungle tribes get sh**faced on plant extracts and the like. Mind altering-substances don't have to be man-made. And why stop at alcohol? There are so many other things, many of them man-made, that also cause many problems? Should 'God' have banned all of those aswell? How exactly would he/she/it go about doing this? Do you want to hand over all control to 'God' or would you prefer humanity to have the free will to make our own mistakes? I would think any creator would want it's creations to have some control over their own destinies wouldn't you? Otherwise what would we be but little programmed machines acting out the movie script of what would, let's face it, be a rather sick and twisted deity? If you do believe in God, be thankful that this God has chosen to give you free-will, or at least the illusion thereof.

Gordon

BrianCalgary wrote:

Back in my heavy drinking days I read this verse: Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. (Ephesiand 5:18).

Doesn't that mean that you should fill up on Vodka?!

Sorry, it had to be said. I'll get me coat.

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

Chocolate is not the same as alcohol.

Chocolate does not have an affect on you mind, but alcohol does.

Chocolate does not destroy families, but alcohol does.

I guess you missed my point. People have different vices. Some have eating disorders and are prone to overeating which leads to health problems. Others have a tendency toward alcohol, which can have a very immediate negative effect. There is alcoholism that runs in my family and I have seen how it destroys. I have also experienced the destructiveness of other things like eating disorders, both overeating and undereating. They also destroy families with the strain it causes, just not as immediately pronounced as alcohol.

Bottom line God has given us wonderful gifts to enjoy. It is up to us to enjoy in moderation and tolet us not be controlled by it. If alcohol causes you a problem, don't drink. If it causes your friend to have a problem, don't invite him to the pub or don't drink in front of him. Be thoughtful and sensitive to others.

Medina

aidan24326 wrote:

Medina, alcohol doesn't cause any destruction it's the people who choose to drink it to excess who do that. If it wasn't alcohol it would be something else. Even indigenous jungle tribes get sh**faced on plant extracts and the like. Mind altering-substances don't have to be man-made. And why stop at alcohol? There are so many other things, many of them man-made, that also cause many problems? Should 'God' have banned all of those aswell? How exactly would he/she/it go about doing this? Do you want to hand over all control to 'God' or would you prefer humanity to have the free will to make our own mistakes? I would think any creator would want it's creations to have some control over their own destinies wouldn't you? Otherwise what would we be but little programmed machines acting out the movie script of what would, let's face it, be a rather sick and twisted deity? If you do believe in God, be thankful that this God has chosen to give you free-will, or at least the illusion thereof.

I can see what you're saying. But look its so easy with alcohol to just slip over the edge from moderation. God banning it would not take away our free will because we would still have to choose to follow the rule. What I can't understand is why in the bible, it is more or less condoned because Jesus drank wine supposedly and supposedly transformed water into wine

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

Thanks for the enthusiasm Babyvaio, I just don't want this to get into a comparing session between all the things in the world.

Can we all just focus on alcohol without relating to anything else, just on the pro's and con's of alcohol and why it is that it appears to be condoned within Catholicism.

I gave the imediate cons I can think of (ignore the 1st one that a choco is not alco, that's just a statement). With comparing the choco to alco I showed some of the worst effects of alco.

Medina

Nobody has yet given any reasons from Catholicism why it is condoned. Maybe there are none. Brian has inadvertantly shot himself in the foot by quoting a verse but taking it literally

Now I'm going home won't be back til Tuesday so get those thinking caps on!!!

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

I guess you missed my point. People have different vices. Some have eating disorders and are prone to overeating which leads to health problems. Others have a tendency toward alcohol, which can have a very immediate negative effect. There is alcoholism that runs in my family and I have seen how it destroys. I have also experienced the destructiveness of other things like eating disorders, both overeating and undereating. They also destroy families with the strain it causes, just not as immediately pronounced as alcohol.

Bottom line God has given us wonderful gifts to enjoy. It is up to us to enjoy in moderation and tolet us not be controlled by it. If alcohol causes you a problem, don't drink. If it causes your friend to have a problem, don't invite him to the pub or don't drink in front of him. Be thoughtful and sensitive to others.

No I did not. U are just justifying it for yourself by saying that a chocolate is an evil thing also if you have too much of it.

I'm sorry, forgot to add something Brian, just before you go home, I have a homework for you - think of it as doing a good deed:

Try to find official statistics on the internet, or anywhere you like to find this information:

- how many families gets ruined/destroyed (i.e. how many divorces, fights, adulteries, etc.) because of too much of alcohol
- how many families gets ruined/destroyed (i.e. how many divorces, fights, adulteries, etc.) because of too much of chocolate

Now, compare it to what you have in the Bible. That verse in my opinion could be read also as alcohol prohibition, not as weeeeell, one guiness is ok I guess...

BrianCalgary

Medina wrote:

I have to be honest Brian and say that to me you seem to be disappointingly trying to fit a quotation around your behaviour. You are saying well 'one' isn't going to get you 'drunk'. Do you take the rest of the Bible this literally?

God used that verse at that time to stop me from going further into the destructiveness that is alcohol. With my family background all I can say is 'Thankyou God'.

The verse on drunkeness on pretty clear. I did a keyword search on drunk over on biblegateway.com and got a lot of verses that were quite clear on the subject of drunkeness.

Now how does one reconcil that with Jesus making wine at Canaan, and serving wine at the Last Supper?

My conclusion: alcohol in and of itself is not bad. the misuse of it is.

I'll resist the urge to draw comparisons to many other things.:D

Dades

Medina wrote:

Nobody has yet given any reasons from Catholicism why it is condoned.

Perhaps you are the only one looking for a reason to condone it?

Your use of the word "condone" presupposes that what you are talking about is bad. If anything what should or should not be condoned is the abuse of alchohol. [edit - as per Brian above]

Would alcohol be illegal had it been expressly prohibited in the bible? Thats an interesting question. If so - in what countries?

metrovelvet

But dancing doesn't impair your mind in any way. And drinking definitely does. Just look at the statistics on how much alcohol it takes to impair your driving abilities.

No. Dancing is very very good for your mind and your body. And in moderation so is some alcohol. It can aid digestion and it also kills nasty bacteria.

The thing about alcohol and why its bad when driving but good [in moderation] when socialising is that it sends JUDGEMENT out the window. We all walk around with cops in our heads policing what we say and do,and alcohol sends these guys on a temporary vacation. When we are socialising we need to say goodbye to judgement for a little while.

When we are driving we need our judgement!

Now, in dance, judgement is very very bad, but so alcohol will not solve it [saying that -when I was on codeine the disinhibiting effects of that were very helpful] so you need to force those judgemental thoughts out - which is why dancing is sooooo good for your mind. You learn to disinhibit yourself without the booze and develop a respect and connection with your body.

I love alcohol btw. Mmmmmm mango mojitos later... yum....

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

No I did not. U are just justifying it for yourself by saying that a chocolate is an evil thing also if you have too much of it.

I'm sorry, forgot to add something Brian, just before you go home, I have a homework for you - think of it as doing a good deed:

Try to find official statistics on the internet, or anywhere you like to find this information:

- how many families gets ruined/destroyed (i.e. how many divorces, fights, adulteries, etc.) because of too much of alcohol
- how many families gets ruined/destroyed (i.e. how many divorces, fights, adulteries, etc.) because of too much of chocolate

Now, compare it to what you have in the Bible. That verse in my opinion could be read also as alcohol prohibition, not as weeeeell, one guiness is ok I guess...

Now you're getting frustrating. Such stats do not exist. I will reiterate my point because I don't think you have seen it as yet.

Overindulgence is harmful. Smoking is harmful.

Drugs to cure disease is helpful. Drugs abuse is harmful.

Eating properly not harmful. Not eating right leading to high cholesterol (cholcolate being a part of this) and eventually heart disease and early demise is harmful. Obesity due to overeating is harmful.


A glass of wine, a pint of Guinness is not generally harmful (unless you are allergic to alcohol). Too much of either leads to drunkeness is, guess what, harmful.

Capice?

athena 2000

Medina wrote:

I can see what you're saying. But look its so easy with alcohol to just slip over the edge from moderation. God banning it would not take away our free will because we would still have to choose to follow the rule. What I can't understand is why in the bible, it is more or less condoned because Jesus drank wine supposedly and supposedly transformed water into wine

Ah! Until you solve the "supposedly" issues you mention above, then no answer any one here gives will be sufficient.

Christ was insultingly called a winebibber, so I don't think "supposedly" really enters into the question of whether he drank wine or not.
Winebibbers vs Teetotallers have existed worldwide for thousands of years.

I suggest that some homework to help your query would be to look up the biblical texts referring to wine or alcohol in context, its use in celebrating, its ceremonial use, and get a generally good overview of it - especially the time period within the Hebrew culture. Don't forget the illustrations Jesus uses in his teaching.

You'd could then judge for yourself how you want to handle it, because God gives us all things richly to enjoy, and Aidan's point about use or misuse is really the crux of the issue.

Christ said at the last supper, that he would not drink again of wine until the day when he would "drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom". Personally, if and when I arrive there, I'll take a full glass.

Here endeth the insufficiency of this reply.

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

Now you're getting frustrating. Such stats do not exist. I will reiterate my point because I don't think you have seen it as yet.

Overindulgence is harmful. Smoking is harmful.

Drugs to cure disease is helpful. Drugs abuse is harmful.

Eating properly not harmful. Not eating right leading to high cholesterol (cholcolate being a part of this) and eventually heart disease and early demise is harmful. Obesity due to overeating is harmful.


A glass of wine, a pint of Guinness is not generally harmful (unless you are allergic to alcohol). Too much of either leads to drunkeness is, guess what, harmful.

Capice?

Alrite, now I really see that you didn't get it at all:

All of those things that you've mentioned are harmfull in high doses, however none of them except alcohol and drugs (and I don't mean drugs as medicine now) will cause your mind to fly and you might end up doing something that you might regret. And you can ruin urself, your family, your dearest ones, your society, etc.

Now, let's go back to the topic - which is allowance/prohibition of alcohol in Catholicism so we can leave the chocolates out of this discussion.

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

Hey ,
I said in the title Catholicism cos I'm not sure about the other branches of Christianity, but can anyone tell me why they think alcohol is allowed?

With all the destruction it causes, I can't see why God would allow it. After all it doesn't really exist on its own this way, its man made and to be honest it ruins so many peoples lives and leads so many people into sin, I don't see any reason why God would have allowed it people to drink it.

I'm well aware of the wedding at Cana story in the bible and of course of the use of wine during the last supper.

However neither of these stories give any justification for alcohol. And to be honest I can't see the Son of God drinking it or creating it either. So that the people of the wedding can 'get merry?'. And in the Last Supper they could have used juice or something, the liquid itself has no importance.

To me it appears as a corruption because there were too many followers who didn't want to give up lifes 'little pleasures'.

Unconvinced.

I'd say fairly good explanation to your question can be found in one ofthe following links.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/booklets/alcohol/biblwine.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=988

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

Alrite, now I really see that you didn't get it at all:

All of those things that you've mentioned are harmfull in high doses, however none of them except alcohol and drugs (and I don't mean drugs as medicine now) will cause your mind to fly and you might end up doing something that you might regret. And you can ruin urself, your family, your dearest ones, your society, etc.

Now, let's go back to the topic - which is allowance/prohibition of alcohol in Catholicism so we can leave the chocolates out of this discussion.

Now we're on the same page.:D

I don't know any Catholics that prohibit alcohol. Here there are those Christians who would say prohibition. My argument is that the Bible prohibits drunkeness but never does it prohibit alcohol.

The prohibitionists have probably been stung by alcoholism and see prohibition as a way to prevent damage happening. A faulty logic because once you ban something it becomes more heavily demanded.

Conclusion: moderation.

metrovelvet

babyvaio wrote:

All of those things that you've mentioned are harmfull in high doses, however none of them except alcohol and drugs (and I don't mean drugs as medicine now) will cause your mind to fly and you might end up doing something that you might regret. And you can ruin urself, your family, your dearest ones, your society, etc.

Now, let's go back to the topic - which is allowance/prohibition of alcohol in Catholicism so we can leave the chocolates out of this discussion.

So can religion do these things - when its not practised in MODERATION!!!

There is nothing in Catholicism which says you cant drink. You have your answer.

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

Conclusion: moderation.

Alrite, so where do you draw the line? For some one glass is enuff to make them sick, for some others, not even a barrel. You're gona say now it's up to the individual to decide what the limit is, but lots of times, you might see a wife hunting down her wine-loving husband, who seems not to have this limit, so she has to invent one for him. It usually ends up in a big row....and it never stops at a single row. :cool:

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

Alrite, so where do you draw the line? For some one glass is enuff to make them sick, for some others, not even a barrel. You're gona say now it's up to the individual to decide what the limit is, but lots of times, you might see a wife hunting down her wine-loving husband, who seems not to have this limit, so she has to invent one for him. It usually ends up in a big row....and it never stops at a single row. :cool:

I can't impose that limit on anyone. Tolerance levels are different for different people. Sometimes we would need help.

As for the marriage I'd say that the marriage had deeper issues than the fellow drinking.

Rev Hellfire

From a catholic point of view there are two things to look at on the subject of Catholicism and alcohol.

Firstly as has been mentioned before the marriage at Cana details the first miracle (as documented by John), the very fact of this miracle is performed at least shows that Jesus did not disapprove of the use of wine.

Added to which wine plays a pivotal part in the catholic mass where the wine is turned into the blood of Christ (Transubstantiation). But at this point the wine (and bread) are no longer taken to be their previous forum but now become the body and blood of Christ (but not the physical sense, but more than in the symbolic sense. This is where faith comes into it ).

I’m not sure if this act is solely a catholic one, it may be practised in one manner or another by the other high churches.

It seems to me that your disapproval of alcohol has less to do with religion (and Catholicism in particular) but rather western (?) society and its acceptance of its use.

L31mr0d

what really dissapoints me about this forum is the severe lack on the part of Christians backing up their opinions with scripture.

Firstly, the bible does condone the drinking of alcohol, it is not only a case of Jesus turning water into wine, but that god gave alcohol to man to make his heart rejoice when drinking it. (Ps 104:14,*15)

Drunkenness, however IS condemned in the Bible. Use of strong drink to the point of drunkenness is strongly censured in the Bible. The wise writer of Proverbs paints a vivid and scientifically accurate picture of the effects of drinking alcoholic beverages to excess. He warns: “Who has woe? Who has uneasiness? Who has contentions? Who has concern? Who has wounds for no reason? Who has dullness of eyes? Those staying a long time with the wine, those coming in to search out mixed wine. Do not look at wine when it exhibits a red color, when it gives off its sparkle in the cup, when it goes with a slickness. At its end it bites just like a serpent, and it secretes poison just like a viper (for example, causing cirrhosis of the liver) and mentally (producing delirium tremens, and it can actually kill). Your own eyes will see strange things, and your own heart will speak perverse things.”—Pr 23:29-33; Ho 4:11; Mt 15:18,*19.

The drunkard’s personal experience is described as the writer continues: “And you will certainly become like one lying down in the heart of the sea, even like one lying down at the top of a mast. ‘They have struck me, but I did not become sick; they have smitten me, but I did not know it. When shall I wake up? I shall seek it yet some more." He will come to poverty, by spending excessive amounts for liquor and also by becoming unreliable and rendering himself unable to work.—Pr 23:20, 21, 34,*35.

This is prohibited in any Christian Congregation because the drunkard is prone to boisterousness or rough, unrestrained noisiness and to ridiculous actions, bringing reproach. (Pr 20:1; Ps 107:27; Isa 19:14) Consequently, the practice of drunkenness is not to be tolerated in the Christian congregation. God’s attitude toward drunkenness was revealed in his Law to Israel. A son who was stubborn and rebellious, who was a glutton and a drunkard, was to be stoned to death. (De 21:18-21) Similarly, the Bible commands that unrepentant or habitual drunkards are to be expelled from the Christian congregation. (1Co 5:11-13)

Moderation and soundness of mind are therefore among the requirements for Christian priests (1Ti 3:1-3; Tit 1:7); ministers (1Ti 3:8); aged men and women (Tit 2:2,*3); young men and women (Tit 2:4-8); children (especially those of overseers).—Tit 1:6.

athena 2000

L31mr0d wrote:

what really dissapoints me about this forum is the severe lack on the part of Christians backing up their opinions with scripture.

But you still love us, right?