$5/10 NL 6 Handed - AK in the SB.

jimbling

Villain started out playing tight, but has loosened up over the last 20/30 hands and has been playing very aggressively.... Has been raising preflop a lot, and has also been re-raising quite a bit. Was caught once already on a reraise when the caller had a set (didnt see his cards). And has check folded 1/2 times on later streets after re-raise was called.
I do also get the feeling that this guy is a bit on the fishy side.

Villian: $1,190
Hero: $1,485

Hero in the SB with AK.
EP folds. Villain Raises to 40. LP folds, Hero raises to $100. Villain calls.

Flop: Ts Kd Qc (210)

Hero leads for $80. Villain Re-raises to $280.
Whats your move?

valor

Preflop is horrendous - raise alot more preflop - at least 150, id go 200.

That changes the whole dyanmic of the hand

luckylucky

jimbling wrote:

Villain started out playing tight, but has loosened up over the last 20/30 hands and has been playing very aggressively.... Has been raising preflop a lot, and has also been re-raising quite a bit. Was caught once already on a reraise when the caller had a set (didnt see his cards). And has check folded 1/2 times on later streets after re-raise was called.
I do also get the feeling that this guy is a bit on the fishy side.

Villian: $1,190
Hero: $1,485

Hero in the SB with AK.
EP folds. Villain Raises to 40. LP folds, Hero raises to $100. Villain calls.

Flop: Ts Kd Qc (210)

Hero leads for $80. Villain Re-raises to $280.
Whats your move?

This kind of position sends shivers done my spine, it's one of those u always feel ur damned if u do and damned if u don't.

anyway my initial thinking on it is if he's any sort of hand then the only ones you are ahead of are a draw of something like KJ, my gut would tell me it's KQ he has but a set is defo possible.

If he really is inclined to be loose agro on flop and then tightens up on the turn I don't think a call is out of da question and then c what happens on turn.

I rule out a re-raise, there is just 2 much of a chance u r behind even though he has been agro - maybe he's hoping he will get paid off for this time for his past aggressiveness.

Also his re-raise is pretty big so it looks like he is trying to shut out draws.
A fold may be a bit on da tight side but 2 be honest i wouldn't blame u if u did - I get da vibe he has finally caught something this time! and is looking 4 u 2 pay him off, i'm just about siding with a fold here but i think it's very close between the call and the fold and without being in ur shoes at that time I don't know which one would have been the right decision.
Anyway if I have to pick one it's FOLD grudgingly.

Just getting back to ur preflop raise it seems a little bit on the low side - u've made it very ec for him to call that re-r, i'm thinking at least 120 here.

Ste05

I check call the flop, keep the pot small and let the loose aggressive player do the betting for me.

Also it's such a scary board, you don't want to be bloating the pot OOP and offering the Villain the opportunity to push you off the hand. Which I think you really have to do now.

I'd only really lead out here if I was sure that the guy was on tilt/a complete fish and would continue with a weaker hand.

jimbling

interesting.....
The preflop re-raise was too small. I also thing the Flop bet was way too small. Ill come back to that. For this discussion assume its too late to change those things.

Hero calls the flop re-raise.
Turn: A

Now what? do you lead big with your two pair. You may have just outdrawn him, but he could also easily have a J or a set. (or nothing at all)
Or do you try and kill the hand and get out as light as possible by check calling?

luckylucky

Ste05 wrote:

I check call the flop, keep the pot small and let the loose aggressive player do the betting for me.

Also it's such a scary board, you don't want to be bloating the pot OOP and offering the Villain the opportunity to push you off the hand. Which I think you really have to do now.

I'd only really lead out here if I was sure that the guy was on tilt/a complete fish and would continue with a weaker hand.

yip I think ste05 is spot on here.

On valor's pre-flop re-raise suggestions while I agree that jimbling's raise is too small and valor's minimum of raising to 150 is fine but going to 200 appears a bit excessive - building a big pot out of position if he calls which i don't like, i prefer to make the original raiser not comfortable in whether he calls or folds - either of which he does in this spot i wouldn't care - i think 120 to 160 does that imho.

luckylucky

jimbling wrote:

interesting.....
The preflop re-raise was too small. I also thing the Flop bet was way too small. Ill come back to that. For this discussion assume its too late to change those things.

Hero calls the flop re-raise.
Turn: A

Now what? do you lead big with your two pair. You may have just outdrawn him, but he could also easily have a J or a set. (or nothing at all)
Or do you try and kill the hand and get out as light as possible by check calling?

I think this is one of those times u put this guy on a hand and stick to ur decision - to me i am putting him on kq but it's far from a sure read, my guess is that u r ahead unless he is the type to raise solidly on a straight draw and i reckon u r going nowhere now. I think u give him another opportunity to bet here - whether i call or check raise is very player dependent - in this guys case i think i check raise him all-in it removes any tricky river decision, if he has the set or J just take it on the chin - if he is fishy enuf he'll call with da kq anyway.

I don't like a bet here(can't believe i'm saying that with my AF ) - i think it allows him to get away from the hand.

Ste05

jimbling wrote:

interesting.....
Hero calls the flop re-raise.
Turn: A

Now what? do you lead big with your two pair. You may have just outdrawn him, but he could also easily have a J or a set. (or nothing at all)
Or do you try and kill the hand and get out as light as possible by check calling?

As played, I'd check call here too, again for the reasons stated, I don't think this A changes too much, we either outdrew his 2 pair, (good), or he's just made a str8 (bad), he still has his set (bad - can we push him off it??), or he improved to a weaker 2 pair himself (good).

It's hard to tell which catagory his hand falls into and since I'm OOP, I'll check call. If he checks behind I'll throw out a 1/2 pot value bet on the river.

We don't want him folding a weaker hand, and that is more likely than making him fold a set.

jimbling

Hero checks the turn.
Villain checks the turn.

River: 6

Hero bets 300.
Villain calls 300.

Villain shows down 66 and takes the pot.

Ste05

jimbling wrote:

River: 6

Hero bets 300.
Villain calls 300.

Villain shows down 66 and takes the pot.

OMG!! Very unlucky, although I think you played it fine. WTF was he doing on the flop, I hope you buddy listed him!!

luckylucky

jimbling wrote:

Hero checks the turn.
Villain checks the turn.

River: 6

Hero bets 300.
Villain calls 300.

Villain shows down 66 and takes the pot.

66 Jeez that was unlucky just one of those things unfortunately for u

That raise of his on flop was f'in crazy on such a high card flop - I would never have put him on that hand after that.

Ste05

Obviously the villain was just raising because the board was so scary to both of the players and thought jimbling would fold, then he got lucky on the river. And had Jimbling bet the turn he would have folded, (I'm sure the reasons for this thread origin) similarly he would have folded on the river if he didn't hit the 6, but I still think generally checking the turn is the right play.

luckylucky

Ste05 wrote:

Obviously the villain was just raising because the board was so scary to both of the players and thought jimbling would fold, then he got lucky on the river. And had Jimbling bet the turn he would have folded, (I'm sure the reasons for this thread origin) similarly he would have folded on the river if he didn't hit the 6, but I still think generally checking the turn is the right play.

sounds about right 2 me.

FastMachine

This is a very read dependant hand, there's nothing you beat that he's reraising with so he's either bluffing he has you by the balls. Who was the villain btw way, was it swaffelaar? used2begood was on tilt last night, could've been him too.

If I decided to play this hand, I'd put it all in on the flop after his reraise. You were vul on with the river. I wouldn't be expecting any bluff equity by flat calling on the flop as you have shown extreme strength so far, so I don't see any advantage in flat calling the flop reraise. With the stacks that big only a total maniac would try and continue a bluff here. If you decide you're ahead here enough of the time stick it all in and don't give him a chance to outdraw. I'd be folding the flop against a good % of opponents.

jimbling

Ste05 wrote:

OMG!! Very unlucky, although I think you played it fine. WTF was he doing on the flop, I hope you buddy listed him!!

lol... ya, buddy alright. I'm not actually the hero in this hand though... it was just one that caught my interest.

but tell me. As already mentioned by a few. The preflop re-raise was too small, this let in some possibly mediocre hands.

Initially, like you, I was thinking... wtf was this guy doing on the flop. BUT.
I think the following is what was going on:
He raised preflop with 66 because he's playing ultra aggressive... fair enough.
He calls the 60 reraise because its not that much, and he would like to see a low flop... .and possibly use position to take pot off AK/Q.
The flop comes down high... but extremely dangerous for an AK/Q.
The flop bet was 80 into a 210 pot.

Villian makes a decision. That 80 bet is one of 2 things... it's either a weak bet, or a teaser bet. I will re-raise (what his cards are dont really matter at this point) here thinking that an AK/Q will be dropped (as hero is of the solid/tight nature) and if called will give up on the pot.

That is exactly what happened, but Hero did not lead on the turn and so gave a free card which won the hand for the Villain. I don't think villain was going to call/bet/raise in the rest of the hand.

In the end he got lucky... but my impression is that the flop bet was a calculated risk and that Hero could easily have folded. I also don't see the reason for the value bet on the river by the Hero.


So the question is..... who played the hand worse. Hero or Villain? Or were both as bad as each other?

fuzzbox

I never get here like you did, so I have no idea what you should do.

Prolly push.

Ste05

OK, so you were the Villain?? EDIT: I now see that you weren't involved in the hand at all...

Well this hand is very much read dependant as I'd say a large % of the time AK, AQ, etc. will fold (I probably would have) as the flop bet was very weak. (I certainly wouldn't have done it) I also think the Villain would have been mad to continue the bluff after being called and hence why I think he had to give up on the bluff, then got lucky on the river.

All in all I think Hero played the hand worse on the flop, by bloating the pot OOP, calling the re-raise with a marginal hand (maybe he had a read??) but then came to his senses on the turn.

I think the Villain made a move that didn't work then got lucky, and there's nothing wrong with making moves like this once it's not done too often, I often make similar moves. Some work, some don't.

For the reasons stated above I think he was right to put out a small value bet after the check behind on the turn. But as Fastmachine says, it's very much read dependant. And the above is just my default thoughts based on an unknown average/ semi decent player.

fuzzbox

luckylucky wrote:

I think this is one of those times u put this guy on a hand and stick to ur decision - to me i am putting him on kq but it's far from a sure read,

Two questions ....

What? and What?

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

OMG!! Very unlucky, although I think you played it fine. WTF was he doing on the flop, I hope you buddy listed him!!

I really dont like heros play much.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

I really dont like heros play much.

I was really referring to the turn and river of the Hero not the flop, I don't mind the turn and river play of the hero.

£DIT: Post 4 has my flop thoughts

fuzzbox

The bet on the river isnt great.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

The bet on the river isnt great.

Do you not think a weaker 2 pair will call, surely we'd have heard from the J on the turn, that's why I'd do it, unless we can put our opponent on 66.

Would you check fold or check call a small bet??

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

Do you not think a weaker 2 pair will call, surely we'd have heard from the J on the turn, that's why I'd do it, unless we can put our opponent on 66.

Would you check fold or check call a small bet??

I much prefer check/call to bet.

Would you call a bet here with KQ? KT? QT? ... v.diff for those hands to call, and really thats all you beat.

I think the only thing that calls you is a set - and the size of the bet is just perfect to let a set call.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

I much prefer check/call to bet.

Would you call a bet here with KQ? KT? QT? ... v.diff for those hands to call, and really thats all you beat.

I think the only thing that calls you is a set - and the size of the bet is just perfect to let a set call.

Well I wouldn't call a bet, and I suppose at these levels there's not many that would. I suppose my mind is on 1/2 players, where I'd say there's a higher chance of a weaker hand calling, so basically I think you're right, I'm just trying to increase my River value bets as I noticed a leak that I was missing value on the river too often, but as you say this is probably a bad spot for a bet against an unknown, but the way I play and at the levels I'm at I could get called by a weaker hand. (I hope. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ).

Gholimoli

hero's play here is awful pretty much on every street as Ste and Fuzz pointed out.
first pre-flop out of position against that kind of opponent its genrally very bad idea to make a big pot with unmade hands.you just want to call here and see a flop and hope to hit and then you get on with extracting money from him.
if you want to raise pre flop you want your raise to mean something so you should raise big (not a gay raise like that).(and because you only have A high really at this time thats why you dont want to raise pre-flop cuz his not going to fold often enough).
post flop on that board you have to get on the defensive.you have hit TPTK but the board is very scary .you want to make it to show down as cheap as possible .your hand cant really stand a raise there thats why you shouldnt bet out.when you check/call you get him to bluff at the pot if your ahead and if your behind then your paying the minimum.
turn does not really improve your hand that much.making two pair on that board isnt any good really in terms of extracting money from villain.
villain can see that board and most semi/decent players will refuse to pay anything unless they have the str there.
thats why your lead on the river was also bad.

jimbling

I actually was the villain in this hand, but I wanted an honest view of both plays. In my opinion I played the hand well (open to criticism though). I still think he should have folded to the flop re-raise and I think he played the whole hand poorly.

The only thing I disliked was having to show down the failed move. To stick it in slightly (tilt attempt), I told him how badly he had played the hand... this didn't please him much :eek:
He made a few snide remarks which included that the reason he didnt fold to the flop bet was because he had put me on 66 :rolleyes:


I knew the whole table was likely to have put me in their notes*... and were waiting to catch me out. The extreme beauty of this was that I soon got to use this to my advantage.
I made a very similar move on another player on the table about 10 hands later.

Him, thinking I was a complete fish(i.e. that I was silly enough to get caught and still try the same thing a few hands later) re-reraised me with his two pair.
i was sitting on a straight flush!



*Ill have to quit playing that level when the rest of them figure out what a fish I am

fuzzbox

I dont really like your flop raise ... this flop almost certainly hits somebody who makes small re-raises preflop, and that kind doesnt fold often. (especially as the most common min-reraise hands are AA/KK/AK/QQ/JJ/TT)

I hate his play too though.

El Stuntman

Gholimoli wrote:

if you want to raise pre flop you want your raise to mean something so you should raise big (not a gay raise like that.

please please write a strategy textbook

'gay raise' I can understand!!

jimbling

fuzzbox wrote:

I dont really like your flop raise ... this flop almost certainly hits somebody who makes small re-raises preflop, and that kind doesnt fold often. (especially as the most common min-reraise hands are AA/KK/AK/QQ/JJ/TT)

I hate his play too though.

Fair enough.... and point taken. Perhaps it was a bit risky alright. But for some reason I had a strong feeling that it was only a AK/Q.

Perhaps it was just the "gay raise" on the flop