$2/$4 NL hand. Pair plus draw on turn.

Lafortezza

$2/$4 Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL)
Table Monster 1276909 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: WildHeart50 ( $441.43)
Seat 2: Larenzo14 ( $328.21)
Seat 3: littleone123 ( $521.98)
Seat 4: juffre ( $218.01)
Seat 5: pistolpete3434 ( $686.53)
Seat 6: ghost_moth ( $222)
Seat 7: CHECKMATElol ( $400)
Seat 8: meldrick ( $383)
Seat 9: OfCourseJNTI ( $400)
Seat 10: Hero ( $440.81)
WildHeart50 posts small blind (2)
Larenzo14 posts big blind (4)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ks, Qs ]
littleone123 folds.
juffre folds.
pistolpete3434 calls (4)
4 folds
Hero calls (4)
WildHeart50 folds.
Larenzo14 checks.

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3s, Qd, 4c ] Pot = $14
Larenzo14 checks.
pistolpete3434 bets (15)
Hero calls (15)
Larenzo14 folds.

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 8s ] Pot = $44
pistolpete3434 bets (65)
Hero raises (140) to 140
pistolpete3434 calls (75)

** Dealing River ** : [ 5h ] Pot = $328
pistolpete3434 bets (200)
Hero folds.

Preflop, sometimes I raise, this time I called.

Ok, I'm pretty sure that there's very few hands I beat on the river, when Villain leads for $200, so I'm happy with the fold. A set or top 2 pair is most likely imo.

The turn is where my question is. Do people just call Villains bet on the turn mostly here? My reason for raising the turn is that I swell the pot if the river comes a spade/K/Q, after I raise the turn Villain could check to me on the river letting me check behind if I miss. My hand has some showdown value (if I miss) but not much.

fuzzbox

No need to raise the turn.
Calling is fine.

If you are behind then you have quite a few outs (esp a backdoor flush ... which is well hidden). If you are ahead, then villain has hardly any outs, so letting him continue to bet is prolly best.

Ste05

Does he often over bet the pot on the turn, any idea what this means??

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

Does he often over bet the pot on the turn, any idea what this means??

a set of Queens

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

a set of Queens

would he limp with QQ :eek: :eek:, what a lovely suckout that would have been if the flush completed...

but ye, I think a call on turn is OK too... I don't think this pot needs sweetening, it'll be hard for him to put you on a backdoor flush and he'll probably just have us on a decent Q so we should have the correct implied odds to get paid off on the river if we complete.

Lafortezza

When he calls my raise on the turn I'm pretty sure he's way ahead of my top pair. That's why I hope to be able to check behind on the river (after raising turn) and see a showdown. He must have a set or 3's or 4's, and be overbetting to get the draws out, flush draw or straight draw or combo draw.

What do people think of Villains river play?

fuzzbox

lafortezza wrote:

When he calls my raise on the turn I'm pretty sure he's way ahead of my top pair. That's why I hope to be able to check behind on the river (after raising turn) and see a showdown. He must have a set or 3's or 4's, and be overbetting to get the draws out, flush draw or straight draw or combo draw.

What do people think of Villains river play?

He should prolly shove the turn if he has a good hand, and this is another reason for you to just call, as you stand to get pushed off your excellent draw.

Obv. his river play is good, as you are planning to check behind.

When you say : "when he calls my raise on the turn, I'm pretty sure he's way ahead of my top pair" .... you realise that you are bluffing with your holding.

marius

lafortezza wrote:

The turn is where my question is. Do people just call Villains bet on the turn mostly here? My reason for raising the turn is that I swell the pot if the river comes a spade/K/Q, after I raise the turn Villain could check to me on the river letting me check behind if I miss. My hand has some showdown value (if I miss) but not much.

I call the turn, I certainly would not be trying to swell the pot - if you read him for a set then neither a K or a Q are any good to you, so you are just swelling the pot hoping to hit your flush.....not something I would be looking to do....

Ste05

lafortezza wrote:

What do people think of Villains river play?

If he had a set I don't like how he played it at all, (1) he should have pushed the turn and (2) he should have allowed all the missed draws and Q's to bluff/bet into him,
unless he think's you're a calling station and will call a decent bet with KQ, JQ, etc.

Lafortezza

fuzzbox wrote:

When you say : "when he calls my raise on the turn, I'm pretty sure he's way ahead of my top pair" .... you realise that you are bluffing with your holding.

I only know I'm bluffing when he calls my turn raise! For all I know after the flop I could be ahead of a weaker Q or a similar draw to mine, 7s9s or whatever.

fuzzbox

lafortezza wrote:

I only know I'm bluffing when he calls my turn raise! For all I know after the flop I could be ahead of a weaker Q or a similar draw to mine, 7s9s or whatever.

so what have you accomplished with your turn raise?

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

When you say : "when he calls my raise on the turn, I'm pretty sure he's way ahead of my top pair" .... you realise that you are semi-bluffing with your holding.

FYP :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

FYP :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

a semi-bluff is still a bluff.

and you have TP2K and are thus ahead of all of his bluffs/QJ/QT etc. (i.e. a large part of his range).

accensi0n

Ste05 wrote:

FYP :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

FYP?

Ste05

accensi0n wrote:

FYP?

Fixed Your Post.

Agreed Fuzz, but still we have lots of outs if we're called, hence a semi-bluff.

EDIT: Just semantics, didn't notice the posts after discussing the raise. (Which personally I don't like)

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

Fixed Your Post.

Agreed Fuzz, but still we have lots of outs if we're called, hence a semi-bluff.

I think you are missing the point.

What happens when we raise, and why is it good?

valor

Fixed your post

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

I think you are missing the point.

What happens when we raise, and why is it good?

Ye I did miss the point, I didn't notice the discussion following about the raise, I don't think it accomplishes anything. Hence why I don't like it.

Lafortezza

fuzzbox wrote:

so what have you accomplished with your turn raise?

Well AQ will fold a high % of the time
I see what people are saying about just calling the turn, so do people ever raise the turn here? I had no reads on Villain, he seemed like a standard TAG-ish full ring player, plus I was 8 tabling.

empirix

Personally here i would of reraised the villains raise on the flop to about $45 but hey thats why i lose online so much