Are Iarnród Éireann Obliged to Let People Travel?

miles teg

Hi,
Does anyone know if iarnród éireann are obliged to let people travel if they are stranded (e.g. no cash)?

Situation happened this morning at one of the smaller dart stations where a girl only had a fifty euro note one her. The machines wouldn't accept it and the ticket guy told her he didn't have change so she couldn't travel... the nearest shop isn't very close so she couldn't even get change that way. The guy was being a real bas**rd about it and the girl was getting quite upset. After about 5 minutes of her virtually pleading with him to let her pay at the station she'd get off at (which happens all the time btw) and him still saying no, I went up and paid for her ticket. I gave him a good bol**cking while I was at it but he didn't care less.
Can he refuse to let her travel purely because he doesn't have change?
€50 these days isn't exactly a huge sum of money.

Cheers

jman0

God that is something that makes my blood boil.
Fair play to you for sorting her out.
I dunno about ticket machines as i've never used them, rather always queued at the windows.
I would *hope* that the law is on our side, that it's Iarnrod Eireann's responsibilty to make change for their customers.
I think it is illegal for a business to refuse legal currency.

Bards

You are definately right.. It is illegal for businesses to refuse Legal Tender as a means of payment.

miles teg

jman0 wrote:

I would *hope* that the law is on our side, that it's Iarnrod Eireann's responsibilty to make change for their customers.
I think it is illegal for a business to refuse legal currency.

I think businesses can refuse transactions if it involves a certain amount of money but given that the dart is a public service, they can't just leave people stranded. There must be times where people have found themselves with no money in town and public transport is their only option. It happened to a guy I know once and they just took his details and sent him a bill.

Andrew Duffy

A company is entitled to refuse to do business with you for whatever reason it likes, including that it doesn't like the colour of your money. The status of legal tender is that once a debt is incurred, it is not legal to refuse to accept legal tender in settlement of the debt. However, you are not obliged to make change.

jman0

Andrew Duffy wrote:

A company is entitled to refuse to do business with you for whatever reason it likes, including that it doesn't like the colour of your money. The status of legal tender is that once a debt is incurred, it is not legal to refuse to accept legal tender in settlement of the debt. However, you are not obliged to make change.

Hold on, i recall a taxi in Galway that refused to take a customer to Athenry and was taken to court over it. The court sided w/ the customer.
iirc, the taxi driver just didn't want to drive to Athenry at the time.

tbh

you are only obligied to take 10 of any coin - f.e. if a debt is 20c, you would have to take 10 2cs, but are not obligied to take 20 1c's. .... Slightly off-topic but there you go.

miles teg

Andrew Duffy wrote:

A company is entitled to refuse to do business with you for whatever reason it likes, including ...

I made the point earlier that the dart is a public service and not a business, therefore they should not be able to refuse a person travel purley based on lack of money.

MarkoP11

The ticket vending machines are legally blocked from issuing above a certain amount of change, €18 I think is the limit, this has been a bone of contention and was discussed at a public meeting a few months back, in light of the explanation we found ourselves in a no win scenario. The machines will automatically display the valid payment means on screen. Exact same applies on Luas and if you think Irish Rail are bad Luas ticket inspectors have even attempted to penalty fare people with valid tickets

Try a €50 note on Dublin Bus and you won't get far (love to see someone try), the conditions of carriage state that change may not always be available. Legally any entity, business or person can refuse your money for any reason, not having sufficent change is a fairly realistic excuse compared to some of the crap you can get from IE.

If you ever worked in a shop you know that it only takes 2 or 3 customers with large notes to completely empty the mid range notes early morning especially when most have exact change for the papers

If you don't have a ticket and the exemptions in the bye laws don't apply (booking office closed) it is illegal to travel, there is no obligation to carry anyone at anytime even if you have a valid ticket Irish Rail can legally refuse to let you onboard and they have applied that in the past and I have fallen fowl of it

In the past you might have been allowed pay at the other end but that was stopped when a court case was lost concerning someone who challenged being done for fare evasion on the basis of being told to pay at the other end, he won despite the letter of law saying he was wrong.

Irish Rail do a professional job of leaving us all stranded on a regular basis, the only point at which they are obliged to assist you is if you have commenced your yourney i.e. allowed board from then on they have to get you to destination even then its usually a total mess

I completely sympathise with the passenger involved but it is somewhat unreasonable to expect change of a €50 note for a single fare which is typically roughly €2. People get far too emotional about things like this instead of being calm and asking the right questions, such as how much change do you actualy have, will you take a cheque and the best of all when all else fails your name and staff number and who is the station master in charge, that lines strikes fear into any employee. Regardless of the business if you work with customers face to face one thing you are told is if a customer starts to lose it you tell them once to calm down and if they don't you walk away and get backup, getting emotional gets you nowhere

Red Alert

how are the machines 'legally' blocked from issuing change? is this a bank rule or a CIE byelaw?

corktina

many bus services are exact fare only....so i dont see there is an obligation to take the €50...Rather the name and adress should have been taken and a bill sent..

fare play (pun intended) to you for paying it for her, was she a Babe by any chance...:) ?

miles teg

MarkoP11 wrote:

it is somewhat unreasonable to expect change of a €50 note for a single fare which is typically roughly €2.

Change of €2 out of €50 = 2x€20,1x€5,1x€2 and 1x€1

To me that doesn't seem unreasonable in anyway whatsoever.

miles teg

corktina wrote:

many bus services are exact fare only....so i dont see there is an obligation to take the €50...Rather the name and adress should have been taken and a bill sent..

fare play (pun intended) to you for paying it for her, was she a Babe by any chance...:) ?

Dublin bus would allow you to pay the €50 and travel on the bus. They would also issue you with a receipt to reclaim the change.

She ws quite nice, but I was there with my gf of 9 years, so that aspect of things didn't really come into it

Bluetonic

miles teg wrote:

Dublin bus would allow you to pay the €50 and travel on the bus. They would also issue you with a receipt to reclaim the change.

Dublin Bus does not accept notes.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/fares.asp#8

miles teg

Bluetonic wrote:

Dublin Bus does not accept notes.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/fares.asp#8

I stand corrected. But at least they have a notice about it. Also they do accept (usually) notes at dart stations

BrianD

miles teg wrote:

I made the point earlier that the dart is a public service and not a business, therefore they should not be able to refuse a person travel purley based on lack of money.

The DART is a semi-state business that receives a public subsidy. They can refuse people because of lack of money or not having change. You can't get on DB without having change. It's not unreasonable to refuse to take €50 to pay for a ticket costing less that €5.

It's pretty straightforward. Have the right money for the journey or have a muti-trip ticket. But it's pretty typical of Irish commuters turn up late, wrong money and threaten hell and high water to some guy or girl who's just doing their job.

However, I wouldn't call not being able to take a DART journey being 'stranded'. All she had to do is walk away, buy something and come back for the next train. I'm sure if it was an Intercity journey and it was urgent she might have been able to bend the ear of an inspector and swing something. Then again, maybe not. No mon, no fun.

miles teg

BrianD wrote:

It's pretty straightforward. Have the right money for the journey or by a muti-trip ticket. But it's pretty typical of Irish commuters turn up late, wrong money and threaten hell and high water to some guy or girl who's just doing their job.

I thought money was money... wasn't aware of the concept of "right" and "wrong" money.
But you're absolutely right. It's typical that people go to ATMs which only issue €50 notes half the time and then blatently expect the note to be broken down any time they want to make a transaction!!! The nerve of them.

Also, this girl wasn't late. She was there about ten minutes before the dart came and she didn't threaten the ticket guy in any way (neither did I). What I did do is tell him that he should let her pay on the other side and it was disgraceful to refuse her travel.

superdog

It's 2006 and businesses are still terrified of taking 50 euros notes! Yet they'll happily take 20s all day!

Victor

miles teg wrote:

The machines wouldn't accept it and the ticket guy told her he didn't have change so she couldn't travel...

Too many customers think that a 50 euro note is an acceptable denomination for small transactions. Many a shop will be handing out 50c coins in change to the second customer with an early morning 50 note.

The alternative is having large amounts of change stored overnight. Fair enough in Connolly, but a no-no in suburban stations.

She sought convenience at the expense of cashiers safety.

miles teg

Victor wrote:

She sought convenience at the expense of cashiers safety.

No offense but that's a stupid comment...

cashiers are all behind protective and quite safe from robbery/attacks imho. I also don't she thought it was convenient to have to use €50 in the first place. She was probably forced to use it because that's what most ATMs give out these days.

MarkoP11

Firstly ATMs have as much in €20 notes as they do €50 notes but without question they have €20 note, it all depends how much you ask for. The maximum amount in change in coin is €20, which is entirely €2 coin. Its easy cope with someone with a €20 as a result but very difficult cope with €50. Even with the best planning a cashier can get caught out, ever been to a bank that ran out of money it does happen

Put it this way Dublin Bus are exact fare and it works its faster than the old change system and safer. If people had exact fare at train stations and luas stops it would do wonders for queue lengths

Still to this day I cannot understand the obession with buying return tickets, I see the same people every morning, its cheaper buy one of the weekly/monthly tickets

The only interest point in all this is exactly what did happen between the passenger and the ticket office clerk thats the only part of this that actaully of real interest

BrianD

I have heard say that €50 note is the new £20 note! Still even a €20 is pushing it for a €2 fare in my opinion.

I don't know what was said between the customer and cashier. However, it is my experience that Irish people in general do not take refusal graciously expecially where there are state companies involved.

Good of you to sort her out though.

Victor

miles teg wrote:

No offense but that's a stupid comment...

I don't think so. Most businesses are unhappy with having more than 100-150 eruo in the till, the rest is dropped constantly. Specificly two 50 euro notes will result in the cashier having to give out large amounts of coin in change

Protective screens don't do much when some guy with a syringe / hammer / shotgun shows up and threatens the customers.

Cash drops are small safes and are used to discourage robbery by minimizing the amount of money in the till.

Chris_533976

Im kinda both sides on this one.

I used to work in a big store and every evening they used to take the money out of the tills and put it in the safe. The next morning, you'd find only a small handful (4 or 5) €20 notes, about 2x €10s and some €5s. Then the first customer comes in and buys a €3 sandwich. Pays with a €50. Second customer comes in. Bottle of orange. Pays with a €50. It gets to disaster very quickly. And if you mention you havent got change, they get pissed. They get angry because they just assume you have the change.

She shouldnt have paid a €2 fare with a €50, but I do understand that this might have been unavoidable. Although getting big notes is frustrating, the ticket man shouldnt have been such an ass about it. Its your job as a customer service person to ensure the customers happy. To hell with the rules of change/moneys, you've got to bend them a bit sometimes to help a customer.


Fair dos to you though for helping her, I hope you got her phone number tho, cos thats one hell of a good icebreaker!

monument

BrianD wrote:

You can't get on DB without having change.

Can you give more then the right change in coins?

miles teg wrote:

I thought money was money... wasn't aware of the concept of "right" and "wrong" money.

Right then, if a 50 is not too much what is? A 100 euro note? 200? 500???

Chris_533976

€500 notes were never printed here. €200 notes are rarely accepted in shops and €100s arent accepted in some places.

MarkoP11

Most people have never even seen a €200 (yellow) or €500 note (pink/purple ish)

Anyone remember the Gift Grub Bertie on the bus sketch, probably captured exactly the experience you get at the coal face

The key question here is not the fact a €50 note was refused since its fairly accepted that its too big a dominiation to assume it can be broken at will for such a low cost purchase, the question is what actually happened at the booking office window

It should have gone like this
>Cant take a 50, no change have you anything smaller?
No what you mean you have no change
>50 is a big note <points to notice> passengers are requested to have exact change since change cannot be guaranteed, try the shop round the corner etc nothing I can do
Can't I pay at the other end
> No I can't let you do that you must have a ticket

Now this is the point where you should accept you can't win and walk away without making a scene

Of course we don't know when to stop so it gets messy and the shouting match begins

What actually was said is key to understanding what exactly the problem was

Calina

MarkoP11 wrote:

Firstly ATMs have as much in €20 notes as they do €50 notes but without question they have €20 note, it all depends how much you ask for.

slightly off topic but still:

ultimately, from what I can see, the safest way of avoiding getting a €50 note is to request either €40 or below, or €60. After that, unless the ATM is out of €50 notes, you are guaranteed to get at least one. That, at least, is my experience, and it is a cause of major inconvenience to me because people very frequently don't have the change. I wish the banks didn't issue them through ATMs. Most people just would prefer a 20E note.

Stark

The 3 most annoying pieces of currency:

1c coins
2c coins
€50 notes

I generally go for €40 from the ATM as when you take out €60 you run the risk of getting €50 + €10 (bastards).

daymobrew

monument wrote:

Can you give more then the right change in coins?

A 2 euro coin for any non outer Suburban fare. Fares: 95c to e1.90.

DerekP11

MarkoP11 wrote:

It should have gone like this
>Cant take a 50, no change have you anything smaller?
No what you mean you have no change
>50 is a big note <points to notice> passengers are requested to have exact change since change cannot be guaranteed, try the shop round the corner etc nothing I can do
Can't I pay at the other end
> No I can't let you do that you must have a ticket

As I was reading this thread, I was wondering when the rather simple issue of good customer service skills, despite a refusal of service, would come into it.

As we only have the original posters word to go on, that the IE staff member was disinterested and its probably accurate, I'd ammend the above scenario as follows;

IE Staff :I'm very sorry madam, but I can't accept the €50 note. Have you anything smaller?
Customer : No that's all I have.
IE Staff : Unfortunetly, for security reasons, I don't have enough change to break your €50 note.
Customer : Okay so. Can I just pay for my ticket at the other end?
IE Staff :I can't knowingly let you travel without a valid ticket. There is a high chance you could be prosecuted for fare evasion. I wouldn't like to see that happen to you.

Customer becomes visibly agitated.

IE Staff : I know you're genuine and I completely sympathise with your dilemma, but there is nothing more I can do for you. I suggest you try and break the note at the nearest shop.

Visible agitation continues, until a friendly fellow customer steps in and offers to pay for the fare.

IE Staff :What has happened here is beyond my control. If you would like to lodge a complaint with the company, here's the form and contact details. Let me just fill in my name, location, time, date and problem. Fill in your details and send it to our customer care dept. Its free post. Once again, I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

There you go folks. That is how it should be done. If you're reading Barry, take note.

BrianD

The bottom line is that nobody anywhere else in the world would try and get onto a public transit system and attempt to pay for a single trip with the equivalent of a €50 note.

End of story. We don't need to debate the merits any further ...

lostexpectation

we do cos there is hardly ever anything less then 50e notes in ATMs,

this is why you have the people going in the morning to shops to break it to pay for the dart/bus, endangering the shopkeeper along the way apparently, its a viscious circle...


and then you can't get rid of your 5ps in ticket machines cos they wont' exept them either argh:P

tallaghtoutlaws

Try paying with a $50 note in NYC for a fare of $1.50 some choice words said to me once when I tried wont say what was said but it happens we will learn from the crap life throws at us.

markf909

BrianD wrote:

The bottom line is that nobody anywhere else in the world would try and get onto a public transit system and attempt to pay for a single trip with the equivalent of a €50 note.

End of story. We don't need to debate the merits any further ...

You can put 10,000 Yen notes ( about €80 ) into the ticket vending machines on the Tokyo subway for fares of about €1.30 and get change back in notes and coins

BrianD

markf909 wrote:

You can put 10,000 Yen notes ( about €80 ) into the ticket vending machines on the Tokyo subway for fares of about €1.30 and get change back in notes and coins

Vending machines in Japan are the exception to every rule!

John R

lostexpectation wrote:

we do cos there is hardly ever anything less then 50e notes in ATMs,

this is why you have the people going in the morning to shops to break it to pay for the dart/bus, endangering the shopkeeper along the way apparently, its a viscious circle...


and then you can't get rid of your 5ps in ticket machines cos they wont' exept them either argh:P

It's 1c and 2c that the machines won't take, they accept 5c coins.

The banks are the ones at fault, only using large notes in ATMs has been an issue for ages, before the changeover it was common to only get £20 notes from AIB/BOI ATMs, Ulster Bank machines on the other hand would always have £10 and even £5.

The cash distribution here really pisses me off, as well as not being able to get small denominations from ATMs it is also nearly impossible to get anything bigger than 50s from the banks.

SeanW

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

Try paying with a $50 note in NYC for a fare of $1.50 some choice words said to me once when I tried wont say what was said but it happens we will learn from the crap life throws at us.

Funny you should mention the NYC Transit, because now they (The Metropolitian Transport Authority) have ticket vending machines all over the place, these not only accept cash (up to $20) but also Credit and ATM cards (such as Maestro and NYCE). AND they accept all these cards for even a small transaction with no minimum.

Of course it helps that the banking system is much more friendly in the U.S. You open up a checking account in the US, you get an ATM card as standard that's capable of being used in MTA machines, supermarkets, Walmarts and many petrol stations, you don't have to apply for a Laser seperately like here, and many banks will offer you a debit Mastercard or 'check-card' Visa to go with it, as soon as you open the account with little or no fuss.

Also, US ATMs only tend to dispense $20 notes.

So although the clerk you mention quite rightly denied you the use of your $50, most people in the US have plenty of alternatives and don't need to do so.

parsi

Of course we all have a story about a buddy who managed to get a free night/trip/food on the basis of having a note that was too big to change (not that I'm saying that this happened though).

On the other hand: A friend of mine has a story that back in 1989 he went to Germany on co-op and his sister in the bank sorted him out with his foreign exchange. She gave him a 500DM note which when he arrived in Munchen was somewhat larger than the fare for the s-bahn ('twas around 1.50DM)...

nlgbbbblth

In my experience

If more people ceased the practice of throwing all their coins into a jar every night and were not constantly breaking notes because they have nothing else, then the situation in question could have been avoided.

Also - in a lot of cases people do have change but are too lazy to sort out the coins and instead hand over a note thus perpetuating the cycle.

Chris_533976

I think a law should be passed forcing everyone to work in a shop for a while.

Would teach people proper order when it comes to notes and coins.

Our man in Havana

I blame AIB for alot of this, with them putting only large notes in their ATMs. Nothing less than a €20 but mostly €50's. Annoying.

Alun

Bond-007 wrote:

I blame AIB for alot of this, with them putting only large notes in their ATMs. Nothing less than a €20 but mostly €50's. Annoying.

I agree. I was in Germany a few weeks ago, and there you got a selection of notes. Say you wanted €200, you'd get 2x€50, 4x€20, 1x€10 and 2x€5 or something like that. Why can't they do something like that here?

Stark

Probably because ATM machine queues would grow to astronomical length. We're not as efficient as the Germans

daymobrew

Alun wrote:

Why can't they do something like that here?

Ask AIB or BOI. They might have a logical, but frustrating, reason behind the practice.
Contrary to what most people, including myself, normally experience, I was given 10x e20 notes when I withdrew e200 from the an Ulster Bank ATM on Saturday evening.

Victor

lostexpectation wrote:

we do cos there is hardly ever anything less then 50e notes in ATMs,

Actually after midnight last night (i.e. very early Monday morning) I was able to get twenties from an ATM. Rare I know, but it happens.

daymobrew wrote:

Contrary to what most people, including myself, normally experience, I was given 10x e20 notes when I withdrew e200 from the an Ulster Bank ATM on Saturday evening.

lol. When the euro was introduced, I took out e300 and got 30 x e10.