Does Religion have any place in Martial Arts?

Would an Irish martial art with Roman Catholic overtones be as acceptable as eastern martial arts appear to be in
Irish/Western society?

Whether the religious overtones embedded within the martial art are Japanese Zen Buddhism, Daoism, Indonesian Mysticism or so forth is it really appropriate for a sport to have so much lumped in with it?
Particularily when few martial arts instructors seem to grasp and be fully adept at the respective belief systems that have a smattering sprinkled in amongst the kata,patterns or so on?

Should martial arts and religion be separate like church and state ought to be?

dlofnep

Religion has no place in modern day society, let alone martial arts.

-JOB.

If you consider martial arts to be sports, then no. But some don't see the martial art they study as a sport, they see it as something deeper, with a spirtual element. Martial Arts don't all share the same identical goal, assuming they do seems to be the cause of a lot of endless debates.

Scramble

If you play around with Google, it's possible to turn up a surprisingly large amount of websites run by evangelical christian martial artists in the US. But in their case, I think it's a matter of tacking on the martial arts bit to their existing belief system.

It's harder to find contemporary groups where religion is an actual integral part of what they're doing: Maybe Shorinji Kempo, for example, and at least one type of Islamic-influenced Silat that I've come across. It seems like most martial arts actually secularised very quickly, considering how much of an integral part religion played in them.

Personally I think religion and martial arts, at least today, are best kept seperate. However, if a bunch of like-minded people are intent on having a christian karate group or what have you, then it doesn't strike me in principle as any more silly than having a christian rock-climbing group or christian gardening group or whatever...

JOB

JOB wrote:

Religion has no place in modern day society, let alone martial arts.
-JOB.

I agree.

But some don't see the martial art they study as a sport, they see it as something deeper, with a spirtual element.

Good point. Then I would say... at the superficial level that the majority of MA instructors/enthusiasts dip into the respective religion/spirituality do they have any business punting on this watered version to their students.

Example: Fair enough learning about Buddhism from a monk or someone who really really practises it in daily life but from someone who dresses up as a buddhist 3 nights a week for an hour in the local churchhall while in their real life they're petty, passive aggressive and not a particularily nice person? That seems a bit off.

kodute

Deleted User wrote:

If you consider martial arts to be sports, then no. But some don't see the martial art they study as a sport, they see it as something deeper, with a spirtual element. Martial Arts don't all share the same identical goal, assuming they do seems to be the cause of a lot of endless debates.

Spirituality is different to religion.
IMHO the martial arts that have a spiritual aspect are more for inner peace and contentment rather than complete surrender to a greater deity or some other religious concept.

Martial arts are scientific, ie. do this, this happens. Cause and effect.
Religion and science don't sit well together!

kodute

Spirituality is different to religion.
IMHO the martial arts that have a spiritual aspect are more for inner peace and contentment rather than complete surrender to a greater deity or some other religious concept.

kodute wrote:

IMHO the martial arts that have a spiritual aspect are more for inner peace and contentment rather than complete surrender to a greater deity or some other religious concept.

And yet this isn't pursued in a particularily scientific way. Generally it's pursued in a traditional (as in established and generally unquestioned way) rather than a modernistic way.

kodute wrote:

Martial arts are scientific, ie. do this, this happens.

I would dispute that. Many martial arts break many of the key scientific and logical laws and use fallacies to support their training practices and sentiment/history to support anything outdated and culturally irrelevant.

columok

columok wrote:

Good point. Then I would say... at the superficial level that the majority of MA instructors/enthusiasts dip into the respective religion/spirituality do they have any business punting on this watered version to their students.

Example: Fair enough learning about Buddhism from a monk or someone who really really practises it in daily life but from someone who dresses up as a buddhist 3 nights a week for an hour in the local churchhall while in their real life they're petty, passive aggressive and not a particularily nice person? That seems a bit off.

If the instuctor has always ran his class in a particular way and a disapproving new student joins, I think the onus is on the student to go somewhere else, not the instructor to change the class.

I agree with your example. It is a half arsed way of learning about Buddhism, but most people do things in a half arsed way. This is no different.

pearsquasher

Hmm for 16 years i've been doing MA - kung fu for 2, aikido for 6 months, and Classical Japanese Budo for 15 years including training with various masters at home and in Japan and i've NEVER seen religion and MA mixed so it's not a problem in my world.

If you're human you can be spiritual without being religious and your MA may be as integrated with that as much as rock-climbing, raving, cheeze-making etc but spirituality has never been thought to me via MA and nor do i think it should be. Dunno what religious MA's some people here are experiencing but if it's that much then try and avoid it or ask yourself what area you're looking into.

Who cares if there are a handful of zealots attracting religious nutters to their clubs... it keeps them out of mine.

kodute

columok wrote:

And yet this isn't pursued in a particularily scientific way. Generally it's pursued in a traditional (as in established and generally unquestioned way) rather than a modernistic way.

Its not scientific because it is spiritual, you can't quantify a good feeling!

columok wrote:

I would dispute that. Many martial arts break many of the key scientific and logical laws and use fallacies to support their training practices and sentiment/history to support anything outdated and culturally irrelevant.

Thats not the way martial arts are supposed to be, but that is still not religion.
When a martial art promises you will become as powerful as their revered master by doing these techniques and that master has a legendary and mystical status, it has more in common with a cult than religion.

http://thedreamingone.com/blasphemy/religionvscults.html

Roper

I read Christian Rock-Climbing group and it out me in mind of those Christian Rock Groups that are becoming really popular in the US.

Anyway. Belief systems are funny. Not funny ha ha, but funny peculiar. Christians pat their bibles and wink when someone gives evidence of evolution to them. Similarly, some refer to spirituality and some 'mind-body' bullsh1t when they know they'd have their asses handed to them by a boxer, kickboxer etc.

I have NO problem with personal beliefs of anyone. I do have a problem with people grafting belief systems onto places they don't fit, such as martial arts.

Ok then....

Does faith have any place in martial arts?

kodute

Roper wrote:

I read Christian Rock-Climbing group and it out me in mind of those Christian Rock Groups that are becoming really popular in the US.

hehe me too! i thought of those Christian Death metal bands! now that makes sense!:D

dlofnep

columok wrote:

Ok then....

Does faith have any place in martial arts?

Faith in what?

Faith in the martial art. Faith is diametrically opposed to empiricism.

Empiricism: That works sometimes cause I can make it work sometimes however I'll keep on testing it.

Faith: That works because it's ancient knowledge and Sensei Deathikara killed 15 ninja's with its powers. Don't you respect the ancients?

dlofnep

I see.. In the martial art. I think it's better to find out for yourself rather than to trust an aesop's fable.

Millionaire

LOL!!! Sure isn't the GAA a great example of Sport and Religon mixing!!!!!

I felt kind of "spiritual" when I did yoga...especially Yoga Nidra which is like meditation. I would not consider this a religon...but it was a really good feeling and quitened my mind.

Muay Thai has a big buddhist aspect to it, regarding rituals performed. Wai Kru is an example, and parts of it honour Buddha. (sorry I cannot remember exact details but it was explined to me)

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

LOL!!! Sure isn't the GAA a great example of Sport and Religon mixing!!!!!

I was just gonna post that comment before I read yours

Quillo

Slightly off topic..... here's a interesting piece by (the always entertaining) Marc MacYoung on cults in the MA:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Faith in the martial art. Faith is diametrically opposed to empiricism.

Empiricism: That works sometimes cause I can make it work sometimes however I'll keep on testing it.

Faith: That works because it's ancient knowledge and Sensei Deathikara killed 15 ninja's with its powers. Don't you respect the ancients?

Good point there Colum!

I do get what you are getting at! But in MA's it is more of a cult following than religion being involved!!

Just look at ITF Chang Hon TKD!!

Need there be anymore said??

Roper

Quillo wrote:

Slightly off topic..... here's a interesting piece by (the always entertaining) Marc MacYoung on cults in the MA:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

I don't find him entertaining in the least. Another one of those "I've been in a billion fights guys".

He makes some good points about cults though

Roper

Quillo wrote:

Slightly off topic..... here's a interesting piece by (the always entertaining) Marc MacYoung on cults in the MA:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

I don't find him entertaining in the least. Another one of those "I've been in a billion fights guys".

He makes some good points about cults though

Black Swan

columok wrote:

Would an Irish martial art with Roman Catholic overtones be as acceptable as eastern martial arts appear to be in
Irish/Western society?

Whether the religious overtones embedded within the martial art are Japanese Zen Buddhism, Daoism, Indonesian Mysticism or so forth is it really appropriate for a sport to have so much lumped in with it?
Particularily when few martial arts instructors seem to grasp and be fully adept at the respective belief systems that have a smattering sprinkled in amongst the kata,patterns or so on?

Should martial arts and religion be separate like church and state ought to be?

Interesting questions. Was raised a Catholic (like most in Ireland), but not much of one as I mature. My commitment to MA has increased as my religiosity has declined. Not sure there was a relationship...may just be coincidental? I am trying to grasp the "Do" of TKD, and struggling with it. See it as a philosophy and not a religion, although some in Korea might differ with me. I guess I could easily adopt a Zen position, a striving for perfection in MA over a lifetime, but uncertain if Zen was a philosophy or religion or both. Now, all I have done with this post was to raise more questions, and offered no answers.:rolleyes:

pma-ire

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Interesting questions. Was raised a Catholic (like most in Ireland), but not much of one as I mature. My commitment to MA has increased as my religiosity has declined. Not sure there was a relationship...may just be coincidental? I am trying to grasp the "Do" of TKD, and struggling with it. See it as a philosophy and not a religion, although some in Korea might differ with me. I guess I could easily adopt a Zen position, a striving for perfection in MA over a lifetime, but uncertain if Zen was a philosophy or religion or both. Now, all I have done with this post was to raise more questions, and offered no answers.:rolleyes:

Or have you????

See how Zen is that

pearsquasher

Right.. if you join a martial arts school for whatever reason, and you develop a nice student-teacher relationship that shows your willing to learn then if you don't have faith in what your teacher is telling you LEAVE the frigging school as you're wasting your time, end of story.

On Zen... I must fish out that article I read once on how a german professor visited Japan, got interested in Zen, joined an archery school run by a particularily religious nutter, got mis-translated much of the teachings and hence infused his own psuedo-philosophy into shooting arrows, published a book, sold it in Japan and modern Kyudo was born where before archery was about killing peopel on battlefields and not becoming one with arrows and stuff!!!!! Anyway I'm not sure that zen is THAT religious a thing.. more like high art/philosophy through action and probably been bastardised as usual by sily western thinking liek that story above. I'll look for the article later.

SorGan

ZEN
A school of Mahayana Buddhism that asserts that enlightenment can be attained through meditation, self-contemplation, and intuition rather than through faith and devotion and that is practiced mainly in China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam. Also called Zen Buddhism

.
:cool:

RealJohn

Does religion have a place in martial arts? I'd say if you're religious already then religion is part and parcel of your martial arts (as it would be in every other area of your life). If you're not religious, I wouldn't consider it necessary in martial arts, that is, I don't feel a religious aspect to martial arts would necessarily be of any benefit to those who are strongly non-religious. The martial art ought to be just as effective (or ineffective) regardless.

takeda shingen

most bjj guys remind me of born again christians. just like jesus has the answer for everything, groundwork is also the answer for everything! and if it didnt work you didnt pray hard enough/omo plata his ass!

most bjj guys remind me of born again christians. just like jesus has the answer for everything, groundwork is also the answer for everything! and if it didnt work you didnt pray hard enough/omo plata his ass!

Well it happens to a lot of MMA guys when they feel they've been suckered by years of punching air, compliant useless training, lethal magic techniques and much much more that there is a phase involving shouting from a rooftop that you've woken up from the matrix.

However: any bjj guy who claims that groundwork is the answer for everythin is the same as any boxing guy who claims that with his striking he'll never get taken down. In my experience when a BJJ guy gets beaten, they usually realise that the person beat them because

1) they're a better groundfighter
2) they're a better clinch fighter
3) they have better attributes
4) capitalised on something stupid they did.

However I've encountered this phenomenon much more in ninjas/karatekas/tkders/kungfu heads in denial...

Mola.mola

I hate when people use generalistic terms inaccurately. Something roper said, possibly tongue in cheek, about "Christians" and "evolution". Like how can generalise a billion people like that.....

Terminology is bollox.

takeda shingen

However I've encountered this phenomenon much more in ninjas/karatekas/tkders/kungfu heads in denial...

my point exactly, "dear lord although we may have sinned , there are far greater sinners out there who have not repented"

Bit of a stretch I think. And mate... I'm not a BJJer as you will. I train functionally in three ranges and incorporate many martial arts into what I do.

My point was: Everybody does that. Everybody makes excuses. In my experience people who compete regularily tend to make fewer excuses. If somebody taps me out my response is generally "Nice one- keep going from there". Ask anyone who trains with me.

Mola.mola

dunno never tapped you colum can't say that's true

You would have at the MMA session mate. Your powers have exceeded mine. The circle is complete.

Mola.mola

/me dances. Modesty will get you no where Colum.

Well, a fundamental part of religion is humanism. It is good to be nice to other people and I try and extend this to everything I do, including "martial arts". It has never been my personal experience that anything any more specific then that has occured in any club I've trained with.

Someone told me that Judo Clubs in Islamic countries did away with all sorts of bowing because it conflicted with the Islamic ethos (so I heard) of only bowing when praying to Allah.

Black Swan

pearsquasher wrote:

On Zen... I must fish out that article I read once on how a german professor visited Japan, got interested in Zen, joined an archery school run by a particularily religious nutter, got mis-translated much of the teachings and hence infused his own psuedo-philosophy into shooting arrows, published a book, sold it in Japan and modern Kyudo was born where before archery was about killing peopel on battlefields and not becoming one with arrows and stuff!!!!! Anyway I'm not sure that zen is THAT religious a thing.. more like high art/philosophy through action and probably been bastardised as usual by sily western thinking liek that story above. I'll look for the article later.

Grand book you mention pearsquasher! It's a little paperback published by Pantheon Books/Random House (1953) called Zen in the Art of Archery by German philosopher Eugen Herrigel. Think it was reprinted in 1981 or so? Less than 100 pages long. It's still in print. Reads like a novel and tells of his experiences, thoughts, training, and whatever. It is translated from the German into English. Not sure how much he misinterpreted Zen, as I am far from the one to ask.

pearsquasher

Here's the article.
The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery

I've yet to look deeper into this..... I mean i'm not sure if the author is correct and i might try and find out what Kyudo people make of it all. It is interesting none-the-less and it's at least a warning on misunderstandings in Martial Arts in its own right.