How to play open ended straight draw

sixpac911

This is a very general question. How to play the open ended straight draw post flop?

I am on the button
BB+5 raises 3 times the BB
folded up to me
I call with JTs (diamonds)
SB folds BB calls

Flop comes
9 hearts
queen clubs
Ace diamonds

Please give me some scenarios after here and what would be the correct play under each condition

Hectorjelly

What do you put the PFR on? And the BB? Assuming you think that the PFR has an ace, can he fold it? Or will he go to the felt no matter what the action or what falls. If the latter than passive play is probably better. Bet big when you get there!

Ideally it goes something like this - BB Bets out. (usually a monster or a weak hand). PFR calls (sign of weakness). We raise, they both fold.

Or BB checks, PFR bets small and our read is that is one of strength. We call.

If your intention is to win the hand by bluffing, then the turn is often a better place to raise than either the flop or river.

Ste05

Ye what HJ said, it really all depends on what type of player you're up against, as to what to do, normally (a huge % of the time) I'll bet if checked to, for any of a number of reasons, (to build pot, to take pot down now, if PFR is a trappy min raising donkey, etc.) but then again sometimes I'll just check behind, (not all that often if checked to)

As HJ says if I'm bet into, it would depend on the size of the raise, what the raise means, was it a BB bet, and a PFR call, (sometimes I'll call behind here for the odds), basically you need to expect a certain action from the BB and PFR, if they play as expected then just play accordingly, if they do something unexpected then adjust, etc. etc. alot of the times hands like these play themselves, especially with a PFR and an A on board, it's very difficult to really offer any meaningful advice as any action would be heavily dependant on what type of player you're up against, their previous tendancies, stack sizes, etc., etc.

I also completely agree with HJ about the bluffing on the turn being better than the flop or river, especially considering on the turn it's only a semi-bluff and you still have definite outs to the nuts (assuming the board didn't pair on the turn)

I think that the most difficult play based on this board and PF action is for a BB check followed by a pot bet from the PFR, then you need to use the history you have with this opponent to decide what to do. Weigh up your Implied odds (probably high if you hit on the turn)/ fold equity to a re-raise semi-bluff now (probably quite small) and make your decision.

Killme00

if its is checked to me i would normally bet to give myself a free card on the turn. I dont think i would bluff on this board with two other players.

luckylucky

Don't want to get too far OT here but as I think the lads have answered your primary question quite well i'm going to .... nobody has mentioned the pre-flop call of a raise with JTs... I'm not saying this is always a bad call but it is a loosish one - I think the majority of the time I fold this here as you have only one player so far in the hand with only the blinds left to act when a drawing hand like JTs wants a family hand, a re -raise from one of the blinds could also make this an even more expensive call. I'm thinking I'd want to be up against shall we say a special player to make this call even in position.
Anyways anybody else have thoughts on this?

sixpac911

I was wondering if that were correct play also. Certainly re-raise is out of the question there allright. Assume the first original preflop raiser has been overly aggressive all through the game and I am on medium stack and not hitting anything all game and BB is very tight all game

sixpac911

I would say twice BB bet maybe? just to get a few hands out of the game?

brianmc

luckylucky wrote:

Anyways anybody else have thoughts on this?

If you're talking about your average tournament situation then you may be right.

In a properly stacked cash game or a very deepstacked tournament I don't think there's anything wrong with a call (so long as you know what your plan for the flop is) and "special situations depending" perhaps nothing wrong with a raise.

Ste05

sixpac911 wrote:

I would say twice BB bet maybe? just to get a few hands out of the game?

No. Limp, fold or raise your standard amount, i.e.3-4 BB's, a min raise accomplishes nothing.

As to the call with the J10s, this is a perfectly fine call. It's unlikely you'll make the second best hand, and hence get stacked, you also have position so theoretically you could play the hand without even looking at your cards if you've played enough with the Villain. It's also a hand that you can safely drop if the Villain shows real strength.

In addition, you want one of the blinds to call, to add value to the pot and hopefully slow down the PFR on the flop, if he misses, although if the Blinds fold again it's a fine hand to have heads up, just don't go mad if you hit a pair.

EDIT: Just read BMC's post above, and obviously all my posts in this thread are based on deep stack Poker. If it's less than 50BB's then all the above obviously changes and other factors come into play...

luckylucky

Ste05 wrote:

No. Limp, fold or raise your standard amount, i.e.3-4 BB's, a min raise accomplishes nothing.

As to the call with the J10s, this is a perfectly fine call. It's unlikely you'll make the second best hand, and hence get stacked, you also have position so theoretically you could play the hand without even looking at your cards if you've played enough with the Villain. It's also a hand that you can safely drop if the Villain shows real strength.

In addition, you want one of the blinds to call, to add value to the pot and hopefully slow down the PFR on the flop, if he misses, although if the Blinds fold again it's a fine hand to have heads up, just don't go mad if you hit a pair.

EDIT: Just read BMC's post above, and obviously all my posts in this thread are based on deep stack Poker. If it's less than 50BB's then all the above obviously changes and other factors come into play...

I agree with Ste05's analysis of the AQs, a min raise is probably the worst kinda play you could make... i'd be very unlikely to fold this hand even in early position in a full ring game but it's the kinda hand I'm very weary of nonetheless. In a full ring game it might be one of the few times I would just limp utg - as always though it depends!

I disagree though with saying it's unlikely you'll make a second best hand, AJ, AT, KJ, KT, QJ and even QT are all possible raising hands for your opponent and this is part of the problem with the call, you could hit your J or T for top pair and be outkicked and find it hard to get away from hand.

Also I don't see why it is a fine hand heads up - you are behind before the flop against any genuine raise! The only thing you have going for you is position.

I do agree however against certain opponents the kind who are loose pre-flop but tight after the call is fine, also in an early stage of a multi I can see the merit of a call. To me if you truly want an edge particularly in a cash game this kinda hand should get mucked the majority of the time. If you are up against tough opponents I definitely wouldn't think twice about mucking it.

Hectorjelly

luckylucky wrote:

I do agree however against certain opponents the kind who are loose pre-flop but tight after the call is fine,

wrong way around, unless you plan on doing a lot of bluffing.

Anyway you call raises w/ JTs so that you make a straight/flush on the turn/river and some moron pays you off with his overpair, so you want a player who is TIGHT preflop and plays badly after the flop. If he is loose preflop you wont get paid off as much because he will have much worse hands on average. If he is tight after the flop then you will never get paid off.

Ste05

luckylucky wrote:

I disagree though with saying it's unlikely you'll make a second best hand, AJ, AT, KJ, KT, QJ and even QT are all possible raising hands for your opponent and this is part of the problem with the call, you could hit your J or T for top pair and be outkicked and find it hard to get away from hand.

As I said, just don't go mad if you hit a pair, personally I wouldn't be playing for stacks on a flop where any of the hands above could beat me. And I wouldn't be too bothered about folding my TP weak kicker to a decent bet from a PFR.

Also as HJ said the tighter the PFR is, the narrower hand range you can put him on and so it's easier to know where you stand post flop, you know roughly what he has and he has no idea what you have.

Then just play accordingly, if a bluff will work, maybe try it, if it won't, then don't, just adjust to his play and his image of you. There's nothing insanely wrong with calling a bet Pre-Flop then folding to a continuation bet if you completely miss the flop. You don't have to win every hand you play....

luckylucky

Hectorjelly wrote:

wrong way around, unless you plan on doing a lot of bluffing.

Anyway you call raises w/ JTs so that you make a straight/flush on the turn/river and some moron pays you off with his overpair, so you want a player who is TIGHT preflop and plays badly after the flop. If he is loose preflop you wont get paid off as much because he will have much worse hands on average. If he is tight after the flop then you will never get paid off.

Yes I meant that the call was right in the case where the guy can be easily bluffed out after flop. There is a certain type of player as I'm sure you know will raise with just about any Ace or King but when the board misses them which it will do 2 out of 3 times they give it up easily enough - so the call can be correct knowing you have this high bluff equity along with your own chances of hitting some sort of hand. Yes you are not going to win a big pot against this type of opponent but your EV can still be +

And yes against the completely opposite type of player for very different reasons ironically enough I agree with with you reasoning for the call.

In most cases though against most opponents especially against quality opponents with only one player so far active in hand I don't like the call, give me a pair of 8s or 9s anyday in this spot instead of JTS.

luckylucky

Ste05 wrote:

As I said, just don't go mad if you hit a pair, personally I wouldn't be playing for stacks on a flop where any of the hands above could beat me. And I wouldn't be too bothered about folding my TP weak kicker to a decent bet from a PFR.

Also as HJ said the tighter the PFR is, the narrower hand range you can put him on and so it's easier to know where you stand post flop, you know roughly what he has and he has no idea what you have.

Then just play accordingly, if a bluff will work, maybe try it, if it won't, then don't, just adjust to his play and his image of you. There's nothing insanely wrong with calling a bet Pre-Flop then folding to a continuation bet if you completely miss the flop. You don't have to win every hand you play....

Fair enough points you make - a lot of my dislike for the hand is probably to do with my general post flop aggressiveness and JTs in general doesn't suit this style - other players probably get better value out of this type of hand than me.

Ardent

My two cents. If you're first to act after the flop, no harm in having a modest bet at the flop. You're creating some fold equity and, if he doesn't fold, you still have a chance of hitting your straight on the next street (in which case there's a possibility of stacking him if he's got top two pair or whatever).

fuzzbox

Ardent wrote:

My two cents. If you're first to act after the flop, no harm in having a modest bet at the flop. You're creating some fold equity and, if he doesn't fold, you still have a chance of hitting your straight on the next street (in which case there's a possibility of stacking him if he's got top two pair or whatever).

Since hero is on the button, this comment is a bit moot.

fuzzbox

Killme00 wrote:

if its is checked to me i would normally bet to give myself a free card on the turn. I dont think i would bluff on this board with two other players.

Do you understand that this is a No Limit game? This has a big effect on your ability to get a free card.

Also - betting the flop is the same cost as betting the turn, so you dont actually get a free card, you pay the same price to see two cards if it goes ... flop : check,check, bet, call, fold, Turn: check, check
OR
... flop: check, check, check, Turn: bet, fold, call

BUT, if it goes : check, check, bet, RAISE, fold ... then you are probably priced out, and the very fact that you bet has now cost you a chance to win the pot.

In a limit game, the free card on the TURN is very valuable, because flop bets cost half the amount of turn bets. So if you invest one bet on the flop, attempting to win the pot, or even raise the flop in an attempt to win the hand/disguise your holding, then you can check the turn to get a free card ... What you have done is actually buy a turn card for half the price.

This is not true in a no limit game, as anybody can bet any amount on any street.

I shall get down from my soapbox now.