Advise needed on flushy flops

ditpoker

I had shoutman to my right in the jackpot the other night and we were discussing what to do if you have a favourable flop, but there is a flush draw. What is the optimum play? Do you want to get rid of a flush draw player? do you under bet it to get maximum value and then let your hand go if the flush card hits?

Example, blinds are 100/200, you complete in the SB with JToff after a few limpers. Flop comes Jh Td 3h. say there is 800 in the pot now so theres 3 players to act after you. My instinct is to bet 500 here but i dont know why i am betting 500 (not that advanced yet). Gholimoli's thread the other day strongly suggested having a plan for your actions, and i think my plan with a 500 bet is to price a flushing player into the call so I get an extra 500 if he misses. Or do i give him the incorrect odds to call, i.e. bet 1000 or so and if he wants to go chasing for that price he is more than welcome to, but the problem i feel then is that if i have my opponent on a flush draw and the a third heart hits i've lost 1000 instead of just 500. Is this a case of over time betting 1000 is the correct play? Do i want to lose my customer and take the pot then? is there an argument for a check raise?

Its not so much the details of a specific hand like JT as i know the flop in my example has straight draws to consider too, what I'm struggling with is how to play a strong flop for me on a draw heavy board.

Goodluck2me

ditpoker wrote:

Do i want to lose my customer and take the pot then? is there an argument for a check raise?

No, free cards are the last thing you want to give here.

Sinfonia

ditpoker wrote:

i think my plan with a 500 bet is to price a flushing player into the call so I get an extra 500 if he misses. Or do i give him the incorrect odds to call, i.e. bet 1000 or so and if he wants to go chasing for that price he is more than welcome to.

500 is still incorrect odds for him to call, assuming he won't make good implied odds if he hits

ditpoker wrote:

but the problem i feel then is that if i have my opponent on a flush draw and the a third heart hits i've lost 1000 instead of just 500. Is this a case of over time betting 1000 is the correct play?

in this case you've lost 1000 instead of 500. in the long term, he'll miss his flush more than he'll hit, so you profit bigger in the long term.

you want to keep him in the pot at bad odds, so i think betting 500 is better than 1000 here, as he still doesn't have correct odds to call, but is more likely to stay in the pot - his standard of play would have to be very bad to call 1000 if the pot before you bet is 800.
the only reason i can see for shutting him out completely is maybe at some sort of critical point in a tournament, and certainly never in a cash game, otherwise you're wasting the opportunity to extract value when you flop top 2pair

also, in this situation where you're in 1st position and there are 3 more to act after you, check-raising is risky, unless someone looks like they're itching to bet, preferably the person to immediately to your left.

sikes

you hand is not that strong when multi way, though is prob best now. depending on stack sizes, i would bet near pot. there are many scare cards that can come on the turn. A, K, Q, 9, 8, 7, 3, any heart.

depending on the table and players involved, a check raise all in may also be an option.

luckylucky

I'm with sikes on this one inclined to go for the pot size bet here ....against 3 players there is a strong chance that somebody will still play with you especially where there is that straight draw lurking as well , you might even get re-raised which would be ideal except if they have the dreaded set but with your JT I think you gotta think your ahead of course.

Also the guys mention that 500 does not give the opponent the correct odds - true enough but I wouldn't blame the opponent for calling... after all are you definitely going to fold if the flush connects on turn!? So implied odds can't be ignored out of question here in reality I think.

rag2gar

i would be a fan of the check raise here, especially if t5here is aggresive players in the pot

nicryan

I reckon you can only try for the check raise if you are damn certain that someone will bet it. if you're in any way unsure you've gotta bet out just to make sure you don't give a free card.

and I reckon 500 is about the right size bet...


-Nic