Pray for Peace in ME | War and spirituality a conflict ?

joseph dawton

It looks like the situation could unravel if conflict does not end soon. A wider war could easily begin, which apart from causing death and misery in the region could mean no oil for the West which would cause chaos in Europe and America and perhaps even more violence.

I urge all those who believe in peace over war, diplomacy over aggression to pray for an end to the hostilities. I think this could be a pivotal moment in world history, I only hope it doesn't spiral out of control.

http://www.electricpublications.com

Nevyn

See I would have a problem with personall as my patron deity is one of war and battles.
I do not agree with the suffering inflicted on noncombatant and the civilian populations at large and the cowardly underhand tatics used by all those invovled I would not be one to pray for peace or gobal peace as I do not see it as being possible, pratical or needed.

Sometimes wars are needed, sometimes death is needed.
There are many lessons that we need as we move from life to life and who is to say what is going on in the middle east is part of that.

The honour is gone from a lot of 'combat' and the lifes of the fallen on both sides are not honoured anymore which lessens each death and lessens us all imho.

war has never been honourable, never
combat rarely so.
it wasn't shining knights clashing on horse back then dying clean.
it was a bunch of kids and farmers runing into a rain of arrows and walls of pikes and dying 6 hours later in the mud and blood after losing your leg to some cocky rich kid on a flashy horse.
the battles were always over someone's greed nothing else (money land slaves whatever)
of course if you survived the battle there was always the pilaging and raping the locals.
war is never pretty honourable or fair anyone who says any different is fooling themselves.

Nevyn

Blood to make the crops grow.

nope water, sun, penlty of nutrients and a little pesticide make the crops grow. beside if there was a battle in a corn field the crop would be destroyed.
thats what i don't like about some areas of paganism.
the gods must be appised!!
worse the fundimentalism i swear!

Nevyn

I can never see a time were there will not be war somewhere on this planet.
I think it is a worth while lofty goal and idea but I can't see it happening.

i never said war was unnessesry or avoidable. i said it wasn't nice it isn't honourable and shouldn't be worshipped in any form.
its always possible to obtain world peace. just not easy.

John Vi

World peace is not ever going to happen. Why would it? It's a good money making and great at kickstarting the economy.
You pasfist's are all the same. War is wrong. Love and Hugs. World peace.
Humans are evil creatures and that is that. Look at the news sunday night to see how many people are killed here in Ireland alone.

Fighting is in our nature as it is the animals. It is survival. Only the strongest will survive and that is it. Whats the point of hiding your head in the sand? Its either kill or be killed and I'd rather kill.

joseph dawton

Death is part of life, yes there is an ugly side to human nature and indeed all nature, that should not be ignored. I agree with King Mob though that it is foolish and unfitting for these times to glorify war and I also agree there is no honour in war and if there ever was it ceased many centuries ago. I doubt that little good can come of ME conflict, I cannot think of a single war that benefitted mankind, certainly a few individuals benefit but for the majority it brings, death, heartbreak, disease, poverty and famine.

As for pagan heroes - Cu Chullain, Achillies etc were around some 2k+ years ago and they were well capable of barbarous acts even with the constraints of 'honour' one must remember that all these legends have a certain amount of poetic licence they glorify their people and their deeds and their gods, more or less the opposite of a moralistic tale of the horrors of war.

To those that think it's all great fun - have you ever seen a dead body? have you ever killed an animal or a person? Have you ever been the victim of serious violence or witnessed a killing or a beating? I can answer yes to all the above except killing a person. If the answer is no to all the above then you know nothing of death - how can you justify reverence of battle/war and associated dieties?

I would rather kill than be killed but I chose to use violence and aggression only in defence of myself and those I love. We all have the power to choose how we deal with situations, I think that if we continue violence as a way of life we will be exterminated as we are destroying the planet as well as each other.

http://www.electricpublications.com

Nevyn

joseph dawton wrote:

Death is part of life, yes there is an ugly side to human nature and indeed all nature, that should not be ignored. I agree with King Mob though that it is foolish and unfitting for these times to glorify war and I also agree there is no honour in war and if there ever was it ceased many centuries ago. I doubt that little good can come of ME conflict, I cannot think of a single war that benefitted mankind, certainly a few individuals benefit but for the majority it brings, death, heartbreak, disease, poverty and famine.

There have been many inventions, technolgy and advances in medicine which would not have happend if not for wars. Womens sufferage would not have happen if Rosey wasn't needed to take up the rivet gun during world wars one and two. It was the rationing that brought about the rise in public health.

joseph dawton wrote:

To those that think it's all great fun - have you ever seen a dead body? have you ever killed an animal or a person? Have you ever been the victim of serious violence or witnessed a killing or a beating? I can answer yes to all the above except killing a person.

I have never said it was fun.
I have seen serval dead bodies and not sanitised in coffins.
I have sat and watched people die and all that could be done was to hold thier hand
or to at least witness thier passing, these have been both peacefull and horrendus.
I have killed and cleaned animals.
I have been assulted and sexually assualted and defended myself to the extend that I needed to get away and live and not be raped.
I have stepped in to difuse fights.
I have held someones intestines in after seeing them attacked with a knife feeling their blood on my hand growing colder as we waited for an ambulance.
I have on finding some one I despised having overdosed on herion then given grave consideration as to ring 999 to rescue them
or to wait until they were passed help and then ring spare thier family many things.

I think it is arrogant to assume to where or what other peoples may have lead them.

joseph dawton wrote:

I would rather kill than be killed but I chose to use violence and aggression only in defence of myself and those I love. We all have the power to choose how we deal with situations, I think that if we continue violence as a way of life we will be exterminated as we are destroying the planet as well as each other.

For us in the so called civilsed countries but the rest of the world is not there yet.

joseph dawton wrote:

If the answer is no to all the above then you know nothing of death - how can you justify reverence of battle/war and associated dieties?

There are many types of war and many types of battles the most fericest fought and hardest won are in the soul/heart/mind of a person.

There are many types of war and many types of battles the most fericest fought and hardest won are in the soul/heart/mind of a person.

so what did you mean by:

Blood to make the crops grow.

?

even after what you have seen who can you think war is honourable.
it's basicly the things you listed 1 million times over.

joseph dawton

I can see you've not arrived at your opinion in a whimsical fashion, and I can respect that. However, I still cannot say I agree, I don't think the gains you mention outweigh the terrible cost. With peace in europe for so long we have forgotten the misery of war and poverty.

I think we have to find some way to evolve our consciousness beyond the baboon-like savagery many of us are cursed with. We have the intellect to to great things but not the emotional control or clarity of vision to use our abilities for the common good. I think this is our greatest weakness as a species and could be our undoing.

John Vi

Thaedydal wrote:

I have never said it was fun.
I have seen serval dead bodies and not sanitised in coffins.
I have sat and watched people die and all that could be done was to hold thier hand
or to at least witness thier passing, these have been both peacefull and horrendus.
I have killed and cleaned animals.
I have been assulted and sexually assualted and defended myself to the extend that I needed to get away and live and not be raped.
I have stepped in to difuse fights.
I have held someones intestines in after seeing them attacked with a knife feeling their blood on my hand growing colder as we waited for an ambulance.
I have on finding some one I despised having overdosed on herion then given grave consideration as to ring 999 to rescue them
or to wait until they were passed help and then ring spare thier family many things.

What are you on about?

El_mariachi

your all a shower of commi's

death to the weak... like nature planned it .... hahaha

Nevyn

and you are banned.

John Vi

Am i not going to get an answer Thaedydal? and why did you edit my post?

Nevyn

John Vi wrote:

What are you on about?

I was answering the questions posed by Joesph if you read his posts you will see that. Oh and I don't have to answer questions which are personal unless I choose to like any other poster.

I didnt' edit your last post I was trying to quote from it and when you mod a forum the and the are side by side and I pressed the wrong button. Opps! but I didn't make any changes to it.

joseph dawton wrote:

However, I still cannot say I agree,

Everyone has thier own journey and comes to their own conculsions I certainly don't expect people to agree with my point of view the world would be very boring if that was the case.

joseph dawton wrote:

I don't think the gains you mention outweigh the terrible cost.

What cost ? the loss of life ? or the anguished suffered ?

I believe in reincarations and there are many life journeys our soul must make and they don't all have to be pleasant. We could be ment to have a life time as a soilder and another as the grieving mother/widow left behind.

joseph dawton wrote:

With peace in europe for so long we have forgotten the misery of war and poverty.

I agree, there are many ways that europe is getting far to complancent and people are getting far to comfortible in thier modren lives which can have verry little struggle.

joseph dawton wrote:

I think we have to find some way to evolve our consciousness beyond the baboon-like savagery many of us are cursed with. We have the intellect to to great things but not the emotional control or clarity of vision to use our abilities for the common good. I think this is our greatest weakness as a species and could be our undoing.

I would think that we can not hide such aspects of ourselves under the carpet and ignore them.
It hink we have to know what we are capible for good or ill and ignoring the darker aspects of ourselves and life can be imho dangerous.
We strive to talk between the two pillars.

John Vi

Oh ok I am sorry if i was rude!

MeditationMom

by Joseph Dawson- I would rather kill than be killed but I chose to use violence and aggression only in defence of myself and those I love.

Isn't this where the US and Europe are coming from? What would you use to defend yourself? Your arms? Countries also use their arms and armies.

If you have to fight back, for the reasons you mention above, you might as well take pride in it, fight skillfully and honorably, instead of brutish and dishonorably. That doesn't make war glorious and honorable, but the quality of the fighting should be.

The problem is that both sides feel justified, honorable, guided by God, and that they are defending themselves. "Who started this?" - do you have kids? the answer to that one is - it doesn't matter. Everybody stop right now and go to their room! I am with you on that.

Well, that is not going to happen. It is going to be a fight to the end and there is no use preaching against war or fighting, since it is already in progress. Pick sides, fight well so it ends sooner, or move to the monastery and pray for everyone's peace. That too, helps and is noble. But just objecting to an ongoing war because you love peace does not make sence. We all object to this war. Who wants war? Ask any divorce lawyer and you'll learn that love and hate are two side of the same phenomena. So is war and peace. I predict a great love affair between the ME and the West when this is over. So many misunderstandings and so much to discover about each other. Just like Germany, Japan and the US.
If you love peace you need to demonstrate peace within yourself to others. How come so many people confuse being anti-something with being peaceful?

Wars have accomplished a lot of justice, freedom and peace in the world, as ugly and as unfortunate as they are, and yes we should find better ways - tell that to the terrorists, though. If the West stops tomorrow, this war is not over. If the terrorists and their buddies stop tomorrow, it is.
Once we have one peaceful, united world, we'll have to find new enemies. They are more valuable than friends I have heard said.

The other day I was thinking about the violence and cruelty that is visited on children and animals in this world everywhere - the statistics are too much for the human heart to take - and a good old fashioned war between grown men for freedom, or oil, if you want to argue that, seemed almost refreshing. I don't need this kind of refreshment, but lets face it, there are far uglier things going on this world than a war. If we want to be cynical and say it is all about the oil, well so be it then. I don't think it that simple, though. There is far more than oil at stake here.

joseph dawton

One has to remember how this all started...

After Britain defeated the Otoman empire they took over Palestine. After a campaign of terror from Jewish separatists the government finally gave in and Israel was created in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence

The British and Americans have totally messed up the middle east during the 1900s and continue to do so because of oil interests. As far as I can see honour does not come into it as far as western reasons for involvement - economics and political expediency is the reason. The honourable thing to do would be to bring all the troops home! The Arabs want to live their lives in their own land in peace without foreign interference, until the western powers go away and Israel gives back the land stolen in the 1960s from Syria, Lebanon and Palestine there will always be no lasting peace.

Arabs fighting for their freedom and rights in their own land are called terrorists by western media but Israel, Britain and US are defined as legitimate despite their crimes against the arabs. Just one example: the British RAF invented napalm the 1920s and tested it on the Iraqi Kurds.

Who are the real terrorists here?

Nevyn

Wars have been started over less, even for just the sake of one bull.
There is also the idea that wars are a way of population control.
It is the idea of having a standing army or as it was at the time a warrior class that has shaped the way the world is now.
A warrior class needed someone else to tend the feilds and cattle, to craft the swords and sheilds this lead to what was our agri based culture which was the start of a production way of life and then on into industires and a work force.

Schuhart

Thaedydal wrote:

It is the idea of having a standing army or as it was at the time a warrior class that has shaped the way the world is now.

I’ve no problem with the idea that society evolves, events have consequences and that the world we stand in today and whatever good we have is the outcome of the past, which might and probably does involve at least one ancestor standing over the body of a defeated enemy.

But does this idea of a cult based on a war god it actually have any practical implications? Would someone following such a cult actually say ‘Forget that oul Good Friday Agreement. Last man standing gets the whole province.’

It left me thinking of that apocryphal story about Diogenes rolling his barrel up and down the street while all around him Athenians were rushing about preparing for a war. When, inevitably, someone asked him what he was doing he said, “I want to be busy too.”

MeditationMom wrote:

Wars have accomplished a lot of justice, freedom and peace in the world, as ugly and as unfortunate as they are, and yes we should find better ways

This is one of the most sensible and thought provoking posts that I’ve read in a long time. I hate even trying to compress it by zeroing in on one point. I don’t think it’s the final word, but it’s a fair step on the road.

joseph dawton wrote:

One has to remember how this all started. After Britain defeated the Otoman empire they took over Palestine. After a campaign of terror from Jewish separatists the government finally gave in and Israel was created in 1948.

I think you know that assigning blame is really just about editing the context. It is true that Zionist terrorism played a role, including people who went on to hold high office in the Israeli Government. Someone else would put it in the context of the aftermath of the Holocaust.

None of that is crucially important now, as both Israelis and Palestinians will refuse to vanish into a fold of history.

Nevyn

What war cult ?
God's that have a war aspect to them have other aspects as well and in many cases the are more defensive then offensive.

Actually it is not a case of last man standing to do with the "war" up north.
The island of Ireland is ment to be at war amoungst it'self until the mother of Mechi lifts her curse and that will not be done until she is finished grieving.

MeditationMom

by schuhart- This is one of the most sensible and thought provoking posts that I’ve read in a long time. I hate even trying to compress it by zeroing in on one point. I don’t think it’s the final word, but it’s a fair step on the road.

Thank you - happy to hear that.

by josephdawton Who are the real terrorists here?

You decide! But decide!

Schuhart

Thaedydal wrote:

God's that have a war aspect to them have other aspects as well and in many cases the are more defensive then offensive.

Clearly you’ll understand this stuff better than me. However, the idea the god’s war outlook is mostly defensive does not seem to present a barrier in principle to praying for peace.

Thaedydal wrote:

The island of Ireland is ment to be at war amoungst it'self until the mother of Mechi lifts her curse and that will not be done until she is finished grieving.

I'm very sorry for her trouble, even if this belief is the most baroque affectation I've come across in a long time.

Nevyn

There are those who do belive that the Morrigan still hold some sway over this land, I would not consider that to be convoluted and obsolete.

joseph dawton

I find it kind of amusing sometimes - the thugees who were devoted to Kali were not nice people they were murderous! They were renowned for battering people to death with coins inside a stocking, a weapon easily dismantled and a swift exit made! They gave rise to the English word Thug! I'm sure there's plenty of fluffy "occult lite" types invoking Kali or The Mórrígan willy-nilly as I write this, not knowing anything about what they are really dealing with.

The Mórrígan, Sekhmet, Kali and their male counterparts are not lovely fluffy gods to be trifled with. Nowhere have a read a myth that has any of these gods involved in something 'nice' - always death, vengence, disaster!
Unless violence and anger are a big part of your life I cannot for the life of me see why anyone would make them the main focus or a large part of their spiritual path.

I realise that Mórrígan together with Badb and Macha makes a triad of three warlike goddesses with other aspects such as sexuality, and of course one needs to look at our darker side as well as the light. But even so it's a bit far fetched being set for battle as we trundle round Tesco getting the cornflakes isn't it? What place is there for their traditional roles in modern society I ask you?

www.electricpublications.com

Schuhart

joseph dawton wrote:

But even so it's a bit far fetched being set for battle as we trundle round Tesco getting the cornflakes isn't it? What place is there for their traditional roles in modern society I ask you?

A striking image.

At the risk of labouring the point, presumably this religious outlook grew out of a time when there was a regular need to either bludgeon the people in the housing estate next to you, or be bludgeoned. An outlook accepting this reality as the natural order would be simply giving you the moral direction needed to get through the day. The equivalent today would be a public information campaign highlighting the dangers of drunk driving.

Reflecting on it, it provides context to the farce involved in someone with a modern Western background immersing themselves in militant Islamist ideology and taking a bomb onto a bus. All because Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire for the Xbox just isn't doing it for them.

Mick86

Thaedydal wrote:

Blood to make the crops grow.

Survival of the fittest.

joseph dawton wrote:

... I cannot think of a single war that benefitted mankind,

WW2 of course. Would you want the Nazis running Europe?

joseph dawton wrote:

But even so it's a bit far fetched being set for battle as we trundle round Tesco getting the cornflakes isn't it? What place is there for their traditional roles in modern society I ask you.

Even soldiers have to eat. And your analogy is not at all strange. The men that herded the Jews into gas chambers went home and played with their children or took the wife out to dinner. That's an extreme example but consider that aside from formal battle we live in an extremely violent society. Limerick for instance bears all the hallmarks of a battlefield, yet the people who engage in hideous violence also live ordinary lives like you and me.

Matthew Hopkins

joseph dawton wrote:

The Mórrígan, Sekhmet, Kali and their male counterparts are not lovely fluffy gods to be trifled with. Nowhere have a read a myth that has any of these gods involved in something 'nice' - always death, vengence, disaster!
Unless violence and anger are a big part of your life I cannot for the life of me see why anyone would make them the main focus or a large part of their spiritual path.

I realise that Mórrígan together with Badb and Macha makes a triad of three warlike goddesses with other aspects such as sexuality, and of course one needs to look at our darker side as well as the light. But even so it's a bit far fetched being set for battle as we trundle round Tesco getting the cornflakes isn't it? What place is there for their traditional roles in modern society I ask you?

I take it you have never been mugged on your way home from tesco then? We live in a time when the value of human life is at an all time low, currently there are more people involved in armed conflict than there were a thousand years ago in what we called The Dark Ages.. hundreds of years ago in the absence of law and order you could be killed for a few coins on the highway, and nowadays you can be killed on O'Connell Street for your Nike Trainers. Nothing has changed really. The war Goddesses are an inseperable aspect of the energy and makeup of deity and further reading will reveal that they all have balance, Sekhmet is a very good example of the ultimate duality in a Goddess form. She was the Goddess of war and pestilence, but she was also the Goddess of healing and sensuality and was the patroness of physicians, she is sometimes portrayed holding two knives, but they are ancient egyptian surgeons knives. Her battle rage was born out of love for her brother the god Amun Ra, who along with the rest of the Egyptian pantheon was facing annihalation from the race of mortals. What woman would not kill to protect her loved ones?
Personally I am a pacifist, but i am always ready to battle anything which threatens to harm me or those i love and if that situation presents itself i am glad to have the assistance of a deity like Sekhmet to see me through.

joseph dawton

I'm sorry but I don't think WW2 benefited anyone really (arguably the US benefited), millions died, the earth was ravaged for resources and greatly poluted by explosives, sinking of tankers, warships etc and it brought us new and more terrible munitions and methods and of course nuclear weapons, the birth of the USSR and it's satelites, the cold war etc. True it was necessary to remove the cancer of Nazism but it left the patient sick and wasted!

I agree Matthew about a place for these deities but I do not see a major role for their dark aspects in 'normal life' ie. when one is not being mugged. My point was that I would not make them the centre of my spiritual practice, I would revere Brighid as a more positive force and she would take precidence in my life over the Morrígan, that does not mean there is never an appropriate role for the Morrígan, I would call up her if I felt a genuine need. Surely for our very survival as a species we need to learn how to move away from conflict situations and become more cooperative than coersive?

What I have been trying to suggest is about balance, extreme forces/measures are sometimes necessary to restore harmony but I am mindful of keeping such things in check until they are required.

http://www.electricpublications.com

scorplett

Joseph.
Obviously I would not be privy to the level of connection you have with deity. However I must assume that you do not have anything particuluarly close to any of those you have mentioned as you seem to constantly misrepresent them. The 'book' charactaristics and correspondances to deity are but the surface.
It is Ironic that when talking of the 'Cancer of Nazism', you would also say that you would revere the greatest usurper (granted partially unwillingly) of the entire celtic pantheon's, the one who consumes the gifts, traits and abilities of all other deity she encounters. The Fiery arrow who bears the hiddeous scars of her forge turned to warmaking. She who has insisted and persisted to have this nation "hear her roar". You see that even Brid is untouched by her own polarities. Sure Llewellen press would have even her own people believe her to be a 'fluffy' and 'nice' deity all about plesant things but would also fail to show the deeper side to her.
The point being Joseph, all deity have their polar side. It is the duality within everything, including our Deities that permiates the natural world to mimic and react to those polarities. As much as a so called 'battle' deity has a nurturing side, so do those 'healer' deities have their own parasitic sides. The differance to me is all down to what parts of a deity you wish to see and experiance.
Also, it is common belief that you do not 'choose' deity, deity chooses you. Sure you can opt to invoke certain deities for certain ceremonys but day to day contact with deity is patronage and occasionally a mentor student relationship. You cannot pick and choose deity according to your daily situation. I am sure even you would laugh at the concept of someone invoking mercury because they are late for a meeting or someone having a chat with miach about their prescription medications??!!
Bottom line is that Deity chooses you, you must accept all that that deity is and represents and do so in every moment of every day.
One little note about Polytheisism here. Our Gods and Goddesses are not perfect or infallible or all encompasing and consuming. If they were then we would be monothesists or duothesists...

joseph dawton

Well scorplet there is no need to take such a condescending tone with me. I do not know you and you do not know me and I am not impressed by wholesale regurgitation of Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone in a lecturing tone as if I am some ignorant noephyte. I am well aware of what you have stated, although I would not express it so vehemently; spirituality is a matter of personal journeys and opinions there is no absolute truth. But then that's the whole point, arguing over minutiae is so common and leads to greater division where common ground and mutual respect is what is needed in these times. Is it not possible to disagree without denigrating or ridiculing others' opinions?

As for polar attributes, yes that's true to an extent. However if all these deities have so many polar attributes that they hence share with other dieties then why bother with distinctions between them? Why bother with polytheism at all in that case? Surely the whole concept exists because of a human need to separate the different aspects of the divine into archetypes?

scorplett

joseph dawton wrote:

Well scorplet there is no need to take such a condescending tone with me. I do not know you and you do not know me and I am not impressed by wholesale regurgitation of Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone in a lecturing tone as if I am some ignorant noephyte.

I was actually trying to be nice about this Joseph. Your comments on deity have been quite offensive to quite a few people (and non people) and your willful misunderstandings of them are akin to you having written 'your momma's a... (insert expletive)'.

I can only react to any given statement or body of statements a person has given and as I have already said and you have reiterated I do not know you and you do not know me, on that basis I cannot see that anyone other than someone with little experience of close deity connection or someone who refuses to accept the wholesomeness of deity would make such statements. This does not mean that I have spoken to you as if you were an ignorant neophyte because firstly, neyophytes and equivilant are not ignorant and secondly because someone coming across as such I would treat with the reasoning of they may not know any better and I would not expect them to know such things. You however, through many of your posts have proven yourself to be a little further than the early stages of training and besides you have also previously indicated that you are interested in the druidic path so neophyte is not a word that would be associated with that path, perhaps dedicant, trainee or bard would be more appropriately used.

I have not regurgitated anything other than three words which were placed within quotation brackets and as for a lecturing tone I accept that and have no bones about lecturing you or anyone else where I see fit and believe it to be justified. I would see this instance to be particularly justified when it comes to the deity you prefer to revere. Having been a priestess of the one she first usurped for as long as I have, I find it quite acceptable to renounce and dispell what she is not and to defend the honour of all deity of this land or no and uphold the purpose of my priestesshood. I will only cease to do so when the world recognises the cancer of the celtic pantheons, understands all its aspects and accepts its nescessity but refuses its untethered rampage and anyone who takes that as a personal attack should look to put some more cotton wool in their wrapping...

joseph dawton wrote:

arguing over minutiae is so common and leads to greater division where common ground and mutual respect is what is needed in these times. Is it not possible to disagree without denigrating or ridiculing others' opinions?

We are not arguing over minutiae and even so it is not an argument in itself that creates division it is the opinions formed and active decisions made based on those opinions that create division. As to greater division, there must first be a division before it can become greater. What existing divisions do you imagine there to be?
If you believe it to be impossible to disagree with someones opinon and yet see it as unnescessary to argue for the sake of common ground and mutual respect then why did you reply? You seem to be perpetuating what you interpret as distastefull. I however see this as more of a colloquy and therefore a sharing of ideas conflicting or otherwise in an instructional and educational way.

joseph dawton wrote:

As for polar attributes, yes that's true to an extent. However if all these deities have so many polar attributes that they hence share with other dieties then why bother with distinctions between them? Why bother with polytheism at all in that case? Surely the whole concept exists because of a human need to separate the different aspects of the divine into archetypes?

An individual deities attributes in their polarities do not mean that they share those with other deities. The reason any deity has any attributes is due to personality. Therefore they remain as individuals. Polarities do not necessarily mean opposite, infact the two words are not even listed as synonyms in a standard thesaurus. A particular deity not only has their personalities but also how they manifest and also their history that will differentiate them from each other. Just because joe and john both like chocolate brownies but hate chocolate milkshakes, they can both mend a punctured bicycle and both know how to boil an egg does not make joe and john the same person!!!
The concept of polythesism does not exist because of human need to create archetypes, it exists because there are some humans who choose to relate and commune with many deities in an intimate way and from that there have been created archetypes, a human concept of communication which convey in a perfect way the purpose of that individual deities existence.

I would just say that with your regard for so called battle or war deities, you should journey with them without fear and understand their completeness rather than only seeing one side of them and also to do the same thing with other deities and open yourself to seeing how they create death and destruction. If you are connecting to any deity within the context of an earth based spirituallity you must understand the primary lesson of life in the form of birth death and rebirth and how every deity embidies this in their own unique way with their own personallities lending to it. Remember that when unserstanding the cycle of birth death and reberth that where there is one point of the cycle there are also the other two to be found. Take off your blinkers and look full circle.

joseph dawton

I can see no point in discussing this further. I have never been so patronised in my life! You might do well to remember that your view is just that - it is not reality (well for you it is). I am well versed with the dark and light nature of existence from the view point of several traditions and I am not lacking in either experience or understanding. but of course like everyone else I still have plenty to learn.

I find it interesting to discuss differing opinions, belief systems and ways of looking at the world in an atmosphere of mutual respect but I cannot do that with someone who is dogmatic, condescending and arrogant. If I have upset anyone I apologise, I was not attempting to do that - I was trying to stimulate debate.

As for your comments, who are you to cast yourself in a position of authority and superiority over me or anyone else on this forum? I find it telling that you go beyond criticising my comments on this thread to encompass my entire contribution to this forum and my whole ethos. Why would you feel it necessary to go to such lengths when I have done nothing to you? I did not ask you to lecture me or personally attack me, I asked people on this thread what role they saw for war deities in modern society. I think that you are the one that needs to look inwards - I feel that a dose of humility might not do you any harm given your recent posts.

Nevyn

While there is still injustice and opression and struggle in the world and in peoples hearts and mind there will be a place for "war" dieties.

joseph dawton honestly I felt put out and partonised by your assertion that my Goddess has no place in this world or my modren life and that there is something wrong with me that I have such a personal connection to such a diety.

Those of us that do end up working with what are seen as dark Gods and Goddess come to learn of thier other aspects. Many times they are seen as taboo and really it is a case of bad public relatations and misunderstandings.
Part of working with those Gods means that we have to faithfull repasent them to others and that can mean correcting other peoples misunderstanding and hoping to shed some light in the dark into which they have been quite frankly shoved.

Kali is the protector of those who can not defend themselves, mostly women and children. Her Thugees were orginally those in the community who would strike out against those who abused others and against whom it was not possilbe to bring to justice under the laws of the land. This is what they were and what she was before the term Thugee became corrupted.

Sekhmet only embraced her rage when those near and dear to her were attacked and she was driven to such an extreme that it was hard to bring her back, thankfully she is fond of a tipple but rage and destruction is not her default but it is there should any raise her ire enough.

The Mórrígan is a lady of such sensous beauty that she hides her face and form rather then addle those she would will to be warriors.
She is also a mother and still loves and aches for the loss of her child.
Her carrion crows help clean away that which would other wise fester and foul our lands.

To lump these three together and declare them out of bounds, out of date and out of touch with modren life and the lifes of thier followers and priests and priestess is to my mind out of order. Maybe they have spurred those posting here up to have a word with you on thier behalf as you have much maligned them.

Do we need warriors and war diety in the times of peace ?

Yes and to my mind doubley so. During times of war your enmey is usuall clear as are the objectives and it is easy to be white against a black back drop.

In times of peace it is easy to grow soft and complacent and fall into short sightedness of living a life with out struggle and assume that it is that way for others. If your life is un touched by injustice, volience, sexual abuse and over coming obstacles be they of the heart mind and soul then maybe you have no need of contact with such Gods, but that is not the case for the rest of us and it would seem the world for that matter.

A warrior is a warrior and is expected to act honourible and defend those arround them and to always be at war with those that make less of others.

Yes in the times before, swords and spears were forged for war and when there was peace they were discarded. This ment that it was a task to get ready for battle and it was not a task under taken lightly. This can be seen in the annals. The describtion of Brighid scarred from the forge making weapons comes from there and can be easily researched. Maybe take some time to visit with her and ask about this task she preformed to equip both the children of Danu and the Fir Bolg as both sides had to have the same weapons to make the battle fair.

joseph dawton

Thanks, that's a very even handed, informative and non-harranging reply. I have done a lot of personal work confronting my own darker side and dealing with my anger in the past and exploring the dark mother and aspects of the Mórrígan, Donn and Cernunnos, however my contact with them has always been limited to a specific need. The darker side is a part of myself that is powerful and and I have a great capacity to hurt others both physically and verbally if I wish to. For that reason I try express negative feelings and thoughts rather than bottle them up but keep it restrained to an extent as I find it scarey myself when given full reign. I try to rechannel my negative traits and aggression towards positive outcomes, I can see from your perspective how these deities are of great assistance in that process. It's certainly something I will look at again.

I do however think that dealing with this kind of deity is more tricky than more obviously benign types as we are all susceptible to pride, ego, self-delusion etc. I would imagine successful and balanced work with them requires a greater level of self-discipline than most people are capable of.

Nevyn

" With great power comes great responsibilty "

It can be hard to see how as a warrior that you can fit what you are into a modren life.
It could be due to this side of yourself and your gifts that you have an averision to such gods.
I know I had and oft I would fool myself into thinking life would be easier if I had a differnt patron deity.
This is a delusion tbh and those of us that have the rage and the ability to cut and thrust at others and to rend them physicall, socailly and engerticall need to learn to use it under the correct guidance.

All blades need to be tempered and tired before they can be trusted.

What is my rage in comparison with that of a Goddess or Her frustration and anger ?

I know there are certain things that I can not ignore, I have had to accept and embrace and understand and so doing so learn to use it to stand up for myself and others.

When have those who choose such hard spiritual paths or find themselves on them most people ?

Difficult people sometimes need difficult deity to work with and to push and challenge them. Yes it takes self discipline and self knowledge they certainly don't pussyfoot around and will strip you of your delusions to armour you with better things.

Yes it can be hard work but so is anything worth achieving and what is more precious then mastery and understanding of self ?

Talliesin

joseph dawton wrote:

I do however think that dealing with this kind of deity is more tricky than more obviously benign types as we are all susceptible to pride, ego, self-delusion etc. I would imagine successful and balanced work with them requires a greater level of self-discipline than most people are capable of.

That can make them safer to work with in some ways. Most people know that Macha and Scathach can be complete bitches before they start working with her. Some people don't realise Bríd and Branwen can be too. Thinking something or someone is "all good" seems to bring more risk of pride, ego and self-delusion than knowing something or someone is nasty.

Or they could start thinking that just because some god or goddess wants them to do something that they should. Frankly I think that people are safer around me as someone who works with Scathach, but knows she's got a blood-thirsty nature, than someone who works with a "more obviously benign[sic]" deity and will do whatever he or she tells them too.

mountainyman

Thaedydal wrote:

A warrior class needed someone else to tend the feilds and cattle, to craft the swords and sheilds this lead to what was our agri based culture which was the start of a production way of life and then on into industires and a work force.

But if you look at somewhere like Sparta the society they constructed was one of the most evil in history.

With a (genuine) polytheistic understanding of the world (1) this means that is is worshipped not necessarily because it is seen as good but because it is a reality. After all the Greeks proptiated the Olympians not because they loved them but becasue they feared them.

However while one can accept that conflict is part of life and perhaps will always be so. This surely does not Mean that war is a good thing.

As for the notion of the warrior castes to venerate them is to ignore one crucial fact. There were far more Helots in Sparta than Spartans; unless one genuinely believes that it is worth the sacrifice of millions to produce one great man; what one might a call a Russian Literature view of life.


Very interesting discussion to read.

MM

(1) Though as I have said before I find it hard to believe that westerners can hold such genuine beliefs as opposed to seeing the 'Gods' as metaphor or 'tools'. I find it hard in other owrds to believe that a modern Irish person can be a polytheist in th same way as a Indian peasant.

Talliesin

mountainyman wrote:

Though as I have said before I find it hard to believe that westerners can hold such genuine beliefs as opposed to seeing the 'Gods' as metaphor or 'tools'.

Why?

There are plenty of westerners with such beliefs. Why not believe what we say about our beliefs? I see little point in our lying about it.

mountainyman wrote:

I find it hard in other owrds to believe that a modern Irish person can be a polytheist in th same way as a Indian peasant.

Well, I believe in gods because of the life-experiences (internal and external) I have had are such that I am led to the religious view-point that I hold.

That obviously is not the same as an Indian peasants, and my relationship with my gods is not the same as any Indian peasants - or indeed exactly the same as anyone but myself, it is a personal thing - so not knowing exactly what degree of similarity you would accept as "polytheist in the same way" I'm not at all sure whether I should say I do or do not hold the same views.

Now, I am aware of the form of "pantheism" (annoyingly the word is used for the form of polytheism I am about the describe, as well as more often for the view that everything is divine - we could really do with another word here) of Dion Fortune and others who say that (to quote fortune) "all gods are one god, all goddesses are one goddess, and there is one initiator" and it is certainly the view held by many Pagans today (Fortune herself was not a Pagan, she was a Christian who worked magically with polytheistic systems - so her own reasons for framing polytheism in a monotheistic context is clear).

I am aware also of those who hold that the Jungian view of the gods as reflections of human archetypes (though Jung did not make a clear statement that he thought that is all the gods were as far as I know [please correct me if I'm wrong, I have only read the little bit of Jung that just about everyone has read]).

But the "hard polytheist" view is certainly found in the Pagan community too.

And really, if a goddess is just an archetype or a reflection of a single divinity, I wouldn't say so to her face all the same.

scorplett

joseph dawton wrote:

I can see no point in discussing this further. I have never been so patronised in my life!

Well I can see many reasons why you should continue to discuss this topic, for example in your own words

joseph dawton wrote:

I have done a lot of personal work confronting my own darker side and dealing with my anger in the past and exploring the dark mother and aspects of the Mórrígan, Donn and Cernunnos, however my contact with them has always been limited to a specific need. The darker side is a part of myself that is powerful and and I have a great capacity to hurt others both physically and verbally if I wish to. For that reason I try express negative feelings and thoughts rather than bottle them up but keep it restrained to an extent as I find it scarey myself when given full reign. I try to rechannel my negative traits and aggression towards positive outcomes, I can see from your perspective how these deities are of great assistance in that process. It's certainly something I will look at again.

I am actually glad that you have felt so patronized and annoyed at my comments as they were wholly intended to do so. If I so choose to challenge someone to a point for their own good or that of others I will do it and It is not a matter of who gives me the right to do such a thing it is who and what I am and my function both in and out of my context as a teacher. And in the course of this debate many have told you the same things in non confrontational ways but you have continued to take the same line. Through confrontation you then begin to see and admit to yourself and to the forum where the use of a relationship with war deities is even in your own life and also where your previous views were held.

joseph dawton wrote:

I am well versed with the dark and light nature of existence from the view point of several traditions and I am not lacking in either experience or understanding. but of course like everyone else I still have plenty to learn.

That was but one of the options I proposed to you as a reasoning for your blinkered view the other you have proven to be a correct assertion.

scorplett wrote:

I cannot see that anyone other than someone with little experience of close deity connection or someone who refuses to accept the wholesomeness of deity would make such statements.

joseph dawton wrote:

As for your comments, who are you to cast yourself in a position of authority and superiority over me or anyone else on this forum?

I might ask who are you to ask that question of me because that Joseph is a two edged sword. Yes I have placed myself in A position of authority true but not THE authority and will stand by such a stance because it has been done for good reason and one that has already proved beneficial to you personally and I am sure also to others who have been following this thread with interest but that said I cannot accept that anyone is superior here. If my comments have made you think that of me be they true or false, well then good, because that is obviously what was needed for you to be challenged from your comfortable position.

joseph dawton wrote:

I find it telling that you go beyond criticising my comments on this thread to encompass my entire contribution to this forum and my whole ethos. Why would you feel it necessary to go to such lengths when I have done nothing to you?

I would see it as only fitting that If I am to form a view on anyone on the basis of their postings in this forum or anywhere else that I do not form such an opinion based on one individual post or even those posts from one individual thread. I have not specifically traced back your previous comments on other topics but remember them as I would take time to consider everything everyone might post here and would follow with ferver those who post reguluarly. I think it only fair to you to base my opinions of you on the most wholesome basis available to me. With this in mind I can appreciate more about you and your place upon your path than you might openly state and can understand your worldview better. Contrary to what you might choose to perceive, I do not see you as any sort of blow in or neophyte and can tell you have had a number of years experience and it is because of this that I was knowingly able to challenge you rather than explain things in a 101 sort of way. You seem to be a stubborn and somewhat fearfull of this subject and considering that I respect you for not having run from this debate.

joseph dawton wrote:

I did not ask you to lecture me or personally attack me, I asked people on this thread what role they saw for war deities in modern society.

No you didn’t ask me to lecture you but tough!, you asked the questions made the assertions, misrepresented and offended the gods in the name of avoiding your own fears. For that I think a lecture was in order. I did not however personally attack you. I challenged your views and gave possible reasons as to why you would have formed them. And might I remind you that you not only asked a question, you also made aspertions about the Gods and be I new to my path, where I am now or another decade or two further along I will always vehemently defend the Gods and Goddesses of any wrongdoing or misrepresentation.

mountainyman

Talliesin wrote:

Why?

There are plenty of westerners with such beliefs. Why not believe what we say about our beliefs? I see little point in our lying about it.

A very valid point. I am certain that you are not lying. That I find it hard to belive is my problem not yours. Nevertheless I remain skeptical.

Talliesin wrote:

That obviously is not the same as an Indian peasants, and my relationship with my gods is not the same as any Indian peasants - or indeed exactly the same as anyone but myself, it is a personal thing - so not knowing exactly what degree of similarity you would accept as "polytheist in the same way" I'm not at all sure whether I should say I do or do not hold the same views.

Again completely valid and I am certainly not judging the level of your religious belief (or even if I am doing so I accept that I have no right to do so, if you follow me) however I really do wonder about the utility of defining oneself as a pagan in the modern age. However because I am unable to accept the validity of your spiritual path does not mean it is not valid the problem is more likely to be mine than yours.

MM

scorplett

Mountainyman; Just a small point of clarification. Not all Pagans are polythesists. Some are duo thesists and some panthiest. There are also some Monothesist Pagans but very very few.

Schuhart

Thaedydal wrote:

Well what is the advantage of any religion then in a modren age ?

My mind just cut to a scene of tumbleweed blowing down an empty street.

MeditationMom

This image holds truth, indeed.
As the Dalai Lama said - "My religion is kindness" - what more is needed?

joseph dawton

My comments regarding no more discussion on this subject were addressed to Scorplet only as unfortunately we are worlds apart. My view has shifted somewhat namely due to Thaedydal's words which had a thousand times more effect than the monologues of a runaway ego (thank goodness this is not all face to face I hasten to add!).

It has been very interesting and I can see that there is a clear divide in viewpoints on the need for the 'dark side' in spirituality/religion.

I feel Thaedydal's comments were especially helpful and I can relate to that point of view more as a result. However, at the end of the day after thousands of years of conflictual behaviour patterns and a multitude of spiritual paths to stear us towards a more enlightened state we are no better off and in-fact it seems the violence and aggression inherent in our nature is likely to kill the whole planet within a century if there is not a significant psychological or consciousness shift.

It's clear to me that mastery of that 'dark' part of ourselves is the quintessential problem, the main area of difference in opinion it seems to me is whether you master our darker nature by embracing it or dominating it.

www.electricpublications.com

Nevyn

joseph Scorplet means well and while you didn't find her posting helpful she still took time to reply and does deserve respect for that even if you disagree and you know you can just skip over her posts

I think in trying to dominate we would have to set ourselves apart and over that side of our nature that I think that such a stuggle is not a good thing and self defeating.

By learning to embrace and acknowledge what is part of us we gain knowledge and eventualy master over our self and our toughts.

It isn't easy, it isn't comfortible to know and see what can lie beneath our own skins and where our dark toughts can lead us but I would as soon admit to myself that when someone is doing my head in that I would realy like to hit them such a smack or punch them in the nose to see them bleed and acknowledge that side and having done so put it aside having let it wash over me and through me and take a deep breath then say nothing and let that urge, ill feeling build into a rage and then have me bent out of shape and having a row or arguement or a confrontation later on in the day or week over seemingly nothing.

This something that I have learned on my path, that and how to have a good confrontations with people, how to tell that person you are doing my head in, these are my boundaries respect them.

Everyone feels anger and frustration and everyone has to express it but we need to learn to do so in a good way.
Sometimes all it takes is saying it, even if it is just to ourselves and that in it's self can be a realse that allowes us to deal with the what/who that has made us angry and where it has come from.

The other side of this is passion, and I would not live in a world with out passion.
The idea of a calm, peaceful, placid world where no one has a good arguement to sharpen thier wits and get thier dander up or has a row to clear the air with thier partner and makes up for it passionately after would to me be like draining all the colour out of the world.

Our passions are important to us, they drive us on, give us ways to express ourselves and experience the world around us, give us the gumption to stand up for what we believe in, to speak out and be heard, to fight to be oursleves.