Grimes v Fleming - the case of the number plate rebel

cargrouch

Lads, what do ye make of this fella? Standing up for his rights, or acting the l@nger? To me it does look like his number plate was not the correct format, and if he's a driving instructor he should know better! His prelude to the actual legalese really shows up the kind of person he is:

Quote
"July 6, 2006. We have a new traffic corp in the Gardai of which Garda Pat Fleming of Anglesea Street Garda Station in Cork is an outstanding member and a shining example to all others as to how to handle the public. It would obviously be ridiculous for me to criticise them for being over zealous in the performance of their duties - such as when they recently gave an entire funeral including the hearse tickets for speeding - but this episode is a lesson in how they behave. I am not allowed to say that Garda Fleming is mad, insane or possibly mentally deficient and I would not even dream of even suggesting it as it is totally untrue and to do so might be doing him a terrible wrong and as the matter is sub judice I am not allowed to even comment on how he has behaved which of course I will not. :rolleyes:

However, I can quote the court record which makes fascinating reading and is highly recommended and you can judge for yourself. It is very difficult, in my view, to have sympathy for people like Garda Fleming when this is the way they carry on. The following photograph shows the friendly manner in which he approached me and how at all times he looked a model of how the perfect Garda should behave. His body language expresses this to perfection!"

Legalese:
http://www.corkdrivingschool.com/Gentlemen/Fleming/Fleming.html

Pictures at
http://www.corkdrivingschool.com/Gentlemen/Fleming/FlemingNo1S.jpg
http://www.corkdrivingschool.com/Gentlemen/Fleming/FlemingNo2S.jpg

kikel

Number plate doesn't look correct. But ya would need a ruler to make exact measurements to see if it meets the standards.

Cyrus

thats deadly fair play to yer man, guards need to realise they have to work within the constraints of legislation aswell

Henry Ford III

The man is clearly a nutter.

Plate is not legal. Font is wrong. Perhaps other things too.

Threatening body language? Where?

cargrouch

I think he'd prefer if the guard got off the bike blowing kisses or offering flowers! :rolleyes:
Maybe he should have prostated himself before Lord Grimes and kindly offered his advice that the plate was not legal.

Gatster

Fair play to him. Some Garda behave like some sort of vigilante force who run the country (when they can be bothered) so anything that highlights this is welcome. Any modern country that doesn't have an independant police regulatory authority deserves to have this sort of petty drivel aimed at them, unfortunately.

delly

All I can see is a plate with the wrong fonts, granted its still readable, but he is breaking the law so deserves whatever he gets.

http://www.revenue.ie/leaflets/carplate.pdf

Anan1

Tosser. Boring one too.

mikedragon32

I'm not an expert on law, but from my reading of the link provided, the Judicial Review number is incomplete and none of it seems to be in the correct format. Perhaps someone from the Legal Forum could peruse it for us.

I'm sure people looking at his website with a view to engaging his services may now think twice, having read all that. Plus, if you look at this picture, from the homepage, of one of the cars that makes up his "fine fleet", you will note it is illegally parked!

Also, Gatster, the Gardaí don't have to behave like "some sort of vigilante force", as they are legally mandated to enforce the law. Your statement is self contradictory.

cargrouch

Anan1 wrote:

Tosser. Boring one too.

Sounds like that guy down the pub that you wish would just shut up.

mikedragon, I agree. The fact that his "Fight the Power" campaign is hosted on a driving school website is worrying stuff. If he can't be bothered with simple common sense things like a correct number plate, and questions garda authority to enforce the relevant legislation, what else does he think he and his students are exempt from?

maidhc

Probably from the same man:
http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2005/H420.html
http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2000/165.html

100gSoma

8. He demanded my driving licence which he had no right to do, in my respectful view.

A garda has every right to demand your license if your behind the wheel of a car. thats the law under the road traffic act.

Alun

Agreed, he sounds like a bit of a nutter, and the language used in those court documents is just hilarious.

The font, and possibly the spacing on the numberplate is wrong, definitely.

Also, did anyone notice that the driver's side foglight looks a bit dodgy as well, i.e. pointing upwards?

Anan1

Check out this extract from the judgement:

However, be that as it may, the position is that the various matters that he complains of, brought themselves down to one or two basic issues; in the course of his Affidavit, and I do this, not in any way diminish the gravity of what he has said, but merely to try and gather together the main strands of his case:-

"(a) In paragraph A of his Affidavit he avers:-

“I beg to refer to one ad under the heading ‘New Taboo Massage’ in which it advises people to be sinful. Cork is a very Catholic city and sin inter alia means any form of sex which is enjoyed. It is an order to have sex once a year in Cork when married provided one does not take pleasure in it.”

4. I find some difficulty in understanding the concept, but nonetheless that is what is stated. He proceeds then to deal with a range of matters in the course of his Affidavit and somehow or other seems to draw some distinction between the cities of Cork and Dublin in this regard.

(b) In paragraph 25 of his Affidavit Mr. Grimes avers:-

5. “Accordingly, on the 17th of September, 1999 a mere six weeks or so after the terrible ads had appeared and I had time to get the required copies required by me by the Statute, I sent to the Board the required 3 copies of recent issues and demanded that “The Examiner” be banned.”

crosstownk

Obviously he's a l@nger. Far too much time on his hands. But if he wan't to waste money on all those legal fees rather than spend €20 on a new set of plates then leave him at it. What a waste of court time.

Anan1

crosstownk wrote:

Obviously he's a l@nger. Far too much time on his hands.

I thought this too at first, but the more I see the more I'm of the opinion that the man is actually not well.

whippet

100gSoma wrote:

8. He demanded my driving licence which he had no right to do, in my respectful view.

A garda has every right to demand your license if your behind the wheel of a car. thats the law under the road traffic act.

Are you 100% sure about this, I heard before that you only have to prove you hold a license to a garda, he had no right to hold it. I think the reason behind this is that a garda may be biased based on any endorsments that were on the license.

maidhc

I was just talking to someone who knows (of) him pretty well.

An "interesting" character by all accounts. He knows the law better than most solicitors, and even has some form of dodgy legal qualification. He normally represents himself in court, and has been doing so for 30 years or more at this stage!

Apparently one of his business ventures involved go to the motor tax office and queuing for a fee back in the days before the internet.

maidhc

whippet wrote:

Are you 100% sure about this, I heard before that you only have to prove you hold a license to a garda, he had no right to hold it. I think the reason behind this is that a garda may be biased based on any endorsments that were on the license.

From s.25 of the RTA 1994:

"40.—(1) ( a ) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production to him of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the said person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he shall be guilty of an offence.

..................

(4) A member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant—

( a ) a person who pursuant to this section produces a driving licence to the member but refuses or fails to permit the member to read it, or

( b ) a person who, when his name and address is lawfully demanded of him by the member under this section, refuses or fails to give to the member his name and address or gives to the member a name or address which the member reasonably believes to be false.

wingnut

He also refers the to the cop "returning to his bicycle". What a spanner!

zilog_jones

delly wrote:

All I can see is a plate with the wrong fonts, granted its still readable, but he is breaking the law so deserves whatever he gets.

http://www.revenue.ie/leaflets/carplate.pdf

Here is the proper regulations on number plates: http://193.178.1.79/ZZSI432Y1999.html

Where does it say the plates have to be in a specific font? There are many different commonly available legitimate plates, and a lot of them use different fonts. I've never seen a number plate written in a Helvetica-like font like that PDF, for starters.

As far as I can see it doesn't even specify that the font should be sans-serif like most plates. If everything measures up on that plate according to the regulations it's fine. Though saying that, at a distance it may be hard to distunguish those 1's from 4's.

I bet people with serif/pretty (but still perfectly legible) fonts are a lot more likely to get into trouble than say, someone who has a standard printed plate with missing hyphens (I've seen a good few of these) - something explicitly required by the regulations.

fightin irish

There does not seem to be anything wrong with the OP'S plates. I work as a parts manager in a main dealer and we make no. plates and sell to the public also.

Someone mentioned the spacing.....When the number is small like his the software is not programmed to allow for this. As long as the plate numbering is straight (as to slanted/joined etc) and is of the right height (his dont seem different to me)

As for the whole case thing.....hmmmm, Dont think it's the brightest thing anyone has done imo.

wingnut

Seems to me like numberplates require a stricter standard. They should all be done to the one template, size font, spacing etc. Manfactures producing number plates to this standard (after inspection) get to put it on, "confroms to ISO 666" or whatever. this would get rid of all this measurement crap and people debating if a plate is legal or not.

Come on.. its not that hard to get it right.

zilog_jones

I agree - they should make stricter rules. Most countries require a specific typeface - look at most other EU plates and you'll notice this - even places like Poland and Latvia seem to have very standardised plates.

cargrouch

wingnut wrote:

"conforms to ISO 666"

I think that standard applies to Heavy Metal, not numberplates;)

As much as the guy seems to get his jollies speaking like the script from the "Playboy of the Western World" in court, I'd have to say tis a bit silly to be a smart-ass with a guard. He better be as smart as he thinks he is - the whole "of course I'd never say he was mad or stupid" thing is just asking to be haunted for years to come with thread depth checks etc. Cork is a small town, if I was a guard it would be a long time before I'd forget this guy!

mikedragon32

They say a man who represents himself in court has a fool for a client.

Tipsy Mac

The mayor of Galway had either on this years or last years car (it was a Lexus) the Galway Crest in place of the IRL/EU logo and the reg lettering was in a heavy bold font., I spotted it in lots of papers at different occasions at different functions. Perhaps the Gardai can't quite make it out....

green-blood

well he seems to be digging himself a hole, his plates better be 100% bombproof legal, including spotlessly clean or he's gonna be pulled every 3 seconds

BrianD3

Michael Grimes is a pretty "infamous" character alright. He owns the Kells Transport Museum collection which has about 200 buses and they're getting in more all the time. He has had runs ins with many parties over the years - Cork County Council. Readymix, the ESB, Cork Airport. Whenever he has a run-in he usually goes ranting on his website
http://www.kellstransportmuseum.com/

Guy:Incognito

whippet wrote:

Are you 100% sure about this, I heard before that you only have to prove you hold a license to a garda, he had no right to hold it. I think the reason behind this is that a garda may be biased based on any endorsments that were on the license.

Surely thats the point of having teh endorsments printed on the licence in the first place? It's not so that the licence issueing people can remember it's their because they haqve records.

Spitfire666

the endorsments are not actualy there for the benifit of the garda

overdriver

I have to say, I think it's entertaining. The garda must have a right pain in the a55 with it by now.

What it does highlight is that someone got a whole lot of hassle over a small infringement of a regulation. blocking his exit, told to produce the car, etc etc. Nonsense, in the grander scheme of things.

At the same time, Grimes was photographing the dude from the time he got off his "bicycle"! So he must've been expecting hassle, or been ready to give as good as he got.

This kind of pedantry is bad for Garda public image.

BrianD3

Did anyone notice that the characters on Garda Fleming's number plate look a bit small I think characters on number plates are supposed to be 70 mm high.

Our man in Havana

He would be a prime candiate for a Wunder order.

colm_mcm

the font on his number plates is way off. Also you tend to have to pay extra for fancy lettering on number plates, this means that
A) he has bought the car with the plates on and not done an NCT since

or

He put the plates on knowing full well that they were illegal.

Hotblack Desiato

BrianD3 wrote:

Did anyone notice that the characters on Garda Fleming's number plate look a bit small I think characters on number plates are supposed to be 70 mm high.

Any or all dimensions on a motorcycle plate can legally be reduced by up to 50%.

It is scary that people of this, erm, mindset can get a licence, never mind instruct.

junkyard

It would be interesting to get a couple of lessons from him to see what his take on the driving test is, if I had nothing better to do I'd go for the laugh.:D

G Luxel

Im looking at the car and the number plates. There are other more important issues like drink driving and speeding than picking on somebody over what looks like a legible number plate. He probably did pass the NCT but changed the plates back to the original ones before he brought the car in for the test and on passing it put back the latter plates on the car.

But what I also noticed is that in Mr Grimes court papers he states the car is an Opel Omega MV6 and what Ive see on the car has all Vauxhall nameplates and emblems. The only reference to Opel is the emblem on the steering wheel. Is it legal to change badges on your car?

Silvera

G Luxel wrote:

But what I also noticed is that in Mr Grimes court papers he states the car is an Opel Omega MV6 and what Ive see on the car has all Vauxhall nameplates and emblems. The only reference to Opel is the emblem on the steering wheel. Is it legal to change badges on your car?

The car is obviously an imported Vauxhall Omega, but is being reffered to as an 'Opel Omega'.
As regards the steering badge (How did you see that?) perhaps the airbag/steering was replaced at some point.

G Luxel

maidhc wrote:

I was just talking to someone who knows (of) him pretty well.

An "interesting" character by all accounts. He knows the law better than most solicitors, and even has some form of dodgy legal qualification. He normally represents himself in court, and has been doing so for 30 years or more at this stage!

Apparently one of his business ventures involved go to the motor tax office and queuing for a fee back in the days before the internet.

This man is very well known. He holds a Doctorate, although what in , i dont know. He is not liked by Irish Rail as he is constantly complaining about the level of service that is being given to customers. At one stage he was banned from using their trains. I would agree with some points he has made.

G Luxel

The car isnt an imported Vauxhall. Its an Opel, bought new. i remember when the car was first driving around the city in 99. I was trying to figure out how a new vauxhall could be sold here? Then I noticed the interior of the car had Opel badging. MV6 was the top of the range Omega at the time and there was no Vauxhall MV6. As regards one of his businesses getting motor tax discs for customers, yes that did happen, but it was 5 pounds extra onto what tax you were paying for. His employees went to the office and had 4 tax forms per person at a time. The service was very handy for people who would have to stand in a queue for hours or who couldnt attend the motor tax office due to work commitments. Unfortunately the service he was offering is no longer available.

maidhc

I remember reading a court case with a Dr. Michael Grimes (Re CB Readymix, Cahill v. Grimes. He was disqualified from acting in an official capacity in a company for 7 years after going to war with the revenue. He said interesting things like the books of account "might have an accident", "I was determined to screw the revenue no matter what it took", and "I was prepared to blow up anyone that got in my way".

Same person I suspect!

G Luxel wrote:

This man is very well known. He holds a Doctorate, although what in , i dont know. He is not liked by Irish Rail as he is constantly complaining about the level of service that is being given to customers. At one stage he was banned from using their trains. I would agree with some points he has made.

Our man in Havana

If this is the same Dr. Grimes he is not only banned from the trains but also from all I.E. property. He has made some very valid points about the state of Kent Station in Cork, particulary the condition of the roof.

Silvera

zilog_jones wrote:

I agree - they should make stricter rules. Most countries require a specific typeface - look at most other EU plates and you'll notice this - even places like Poland and Latvia seem to have very standardised plates.

Plates in most EU countries (and worldwide) are issued by a government department and that is why they conform to a certain standard.

In Ireland, the only plates issued by the govt are Trade Plates - which always conform to the required standards re spacing, digit size, etc.

Silvera

G Luxel wrote:

The car isnt an imported Vauxhall. Its an Opel, bought new. i remember when the car was first driving around the city in 99. I was trying to figure out how a new vauxhall could be sold here? Then I noticed the interior of the car had Opel badging. MV6 was the top of the range Omega at the time and there was no Vauxhall MV6.

Why has it got Vauxhall badging/grille?

The MV6 was also sold new in 1999 by Vauxhall - see : www.advantagewebservices.co.uk/carshowroom/omega.htm