Letter from Israel

Carry

I created a new thread because the "Is Israel right?" thread is already very long. As I mentioned there I know Jewish people in Israel and simply asked them how they feel. They gave me permission to let other people know about their opinion.
I had to cut it short though, cause otherwise the board wouldn't have accepted it. I left out some personal notes to myself and the quite lengthy and detailed interpretation of the history that led in their opionion to the current situation. Can supplement this part in another posting if anyone is interested.
I leave it - without a comment from my side - as food for thought.

(...)

We are actually pleased that you (and hopefully others) are taking an active interest in what is happening in this corner of the world. Sometimes we feel that it’s amazing that this one tiny point on the globe can attract so much of the worlds attention – but I suppose it’s far better this way than the alternative, which would be that nobody cared, nobody felt involved, and we would end up on the sidelines of history like the poor people in Darfur, Sierra Leone, Somalia and a dozen other places in the world where atrocities of horrendous proportions are being acted out as we speak – and the world is silent!

Still – for today, let’s talk about the situation in the middle east – from the viewpoint of a couple of Israelis.

To begin with you ask “how do Israelis feel”. That’s actually one of the hardest questions to answer. You see when you say Israelis – you are talking about a very diverse, multi-faceted society. Israeli Jews probably feel differently from Israeli Moslems and again differently from Israeli Christians, Druze, Circessians etc. Even among each of these communities (of which obviously the Jews and Moslems are by far the largest), opinion is deeply divided on many topics. We are a very open, vocal and democratic society – and if you want to find “support” for any topic, no matter how controversial, you are guaranteed to find some group of people demonstrating publicly for it, and on the other side of the road another group of people demonstrating against it. Point your camera wherever you wish and you can “prove” whichever point of view you chose.

Having said that, I believe that if public opinion polls are anything to go by, the overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews, and a significant number of Israeli Moslems would say that this time at least, our struggle in Lebanon is justified and necessary. Sure as I mentioned before, you can find a few Israelis of all persuasions who disagree (there was a small demonstration, mainly led by the communist party, protesting the war), but this time I feel comfortable in saying that they really are on the fringe of public opinion.

So with all of the disclaimers above – what do we (xxx and xxx – and perhaps representing the mainstream of thought in the country) feel at the moment?

My simple answer would probably be VERY angry, VERY sad and VERY frustrated! In addition we feel very worried.

Why do we feel this way? Well, the answer can be very simple or very complicated – depending how “deep” you want to go into the roots of the conflict, how far back you want to go with the conflict, and how wide you wish to take the context of the conflict.

For the purpose of this letter we should probably go a fair way in each of these directions.

Some background history (some of which you’ve probably already heard – but again, what you see depends on where you sit…..so maybe we see it a bit differently).

(...)

So the Hezbollah remained in control of the south of the country where over the years and under the noses (literally under their noses, and sometimes even with the support and acquiesce) of the United Nations International Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) they built up a massive military presence along the entire length of the border with Israel. From here they continued to attack Israel on a periodic basis – so we were effectively back where we started!

In a number of attacks, soldiers were killed or kidnapped and in each case Israel’s policy was to make a token retaliation and then get into a negotiation on the release of our kidnapped soldiers in return for release of captured Lebanese or Palestinian terrorists sitting in Israeli jails. The “price” for these negotiations obviously increased to absurd proportions (1000 terrorists in exchange for the bodies of 3 Israeli soldiers kidnapped and murdered was the most recent “exchange rate”). In this latest incident two weeks ago, Hezbollah finally overdid it by launching a premeditated attack across the internationally recognized border, kidnapping soldiers from our territory accompanied by a simultaneous barrage of missile attacks on civilian targets. At this point Israel decided that the rules of the game need to change – and attacked back.

This by the way, is one of the reasons that so many (read that as all) of the other Arab nations in the region have made it clear that they do not support Hezbollah and it’s behaviour – at least not in this specific case. Apart form the usual lip service - it is very clear from the lack of real support by the other Arab and Moslem countries for Hezbollah, that the current crisis is a clear case where we had no option but to respond the way we did.

That’s where we are today - so much for the history.

You have to realize that Israel has not seen a single day of peace since the day the state was created in 1948 – the long term threats like this and the constant state of war, have taken their toll. We’re not really a country given to “whingeing” and we shy away from showing our wounds in public. As a result of this the media seems to get a bit of a one-sided picture of the situation – both graphically and textually.
In this current conflict for example – there is much talk of 700K Lebanese refugees who have fled from the south of the country …. what about the hundreds of thousands of Israelis who have fled from the north of our country? These aren’t mentioned at all. Over a million and a half Israelis – almost a quarter of our entire population (!) have been stuck in bomb shelters for over two weeks. Tens of Israelis have been killed, hundreds wounded. Then there’s the economic damage – over a thousand industrial plants, from small to large ones have been silenced or are working in crazy conditions (I work for Intel which has a large design centre in Haifa. Of the 2500 employees there, two thirds are working from makeshift offices throughout the south, and about a third are operating from a bomb-shelter inside the plant). The entire tourist season has gone down the tubes leaving thousands out of work. The bulk of the agricultural harvest is lying in the fields and on the trees – rotting away… yet when there is talk of aid it is all focused on Lebanon.

Don’t get me wrong – we realize that there is a lot of suffering there too, and we have a lot of sympathy for what the civilians there are going through, but it’s not as one-sided as it seems.

I hear that Israel is being blamed in some quarters for causing “too many” civilian casualties. It’s hard to argue against that – as any civilian casualty is “too many”. Hezbollah are notorious for placing themselves in and among civilian concentrations for defensive purposes (in this they are not alone unfortunately – their brethren in the Hammas do the same). I honestly can’t say whether or not this is with the support and agreement of this civilian population – on the one hand most of them publicly express their support for Hezbollah – on the other hand I recognize that it’s kind of hard NOT to “express your support” when someone is standing over you with a gun. But the fact is that leaves one with very few options when fighting Hezbollah – do you risk hitting a civilian or do you let the terrorist hit you? That’s a tough choice.

On a very personal note.

Our eldest daughter and son-in-law live in Kiryat Shemona. This is a small town in the north of Israel, close to the Lebanese border, with a total population of 22,000 inhabitants (by comparison - almost exactly the size of Ennis). They spent the first week of this war sitting in the bomb shelters before finally leaving and heading down south to come to Jerusalem and stay with us. Kiryat Shemona has, since the ‘70’s when the trouble started, been hit by over 4000 (!!!) Katyusha missiles. Imagine that – a town the size of Ennis hit by 4000 artillery rockets! In this last two weeks alone they have been hit by a few hundred missiles - wouldn’t you also begin to get a bit upset?

So how do we feel? As I said - VERY angry, VERY sad and VERY frustrated! In addition we feel very worried.

Angry - because all of this should never have happened, and probably wouldn’t if Israel and Lebanon had been left alone to our own devices. Sad - because I honestly don’t see an end to it at the moment, unless the whole world now helps solve the root of the problem – not just the symptoms. Frustrated – because frankly I don’t see that happening – the nations of the world just want a quick solution so that the blanket can be pulled over the problem and everyone can happily ignore it for a while ……until it erupts again even more violently! Finally, worried – because while Jerusalem may be safe at the moment (if we ignore the fact that on a daily basis terrorists are carrying out bomb attacks on Jerusalem – only the police and army manage to stop most of them in time) our friends, relatives and work mates are in the line of fire and at constant risk.

(...)

Victor

Best of luck to your friends in their predicament. I've spoken to or seen comments from all 'sides' and none are enthusiastic.

spanner

good letter and it made some good points

the_syco

During the gulf war (1st one), Saddam launched a few scuds in the direction of Isreal. The next year, it became law that every building must have a bomb shelter.

If this was not the case, Isreal would be in a much worse situation right now

Dirk Gently

the_syco wrote:

it became law that every building must have a bomb shelter.

Pity the Lebanese didn't have the same policy.

To be fair you can wholeheartedly understand the position of the Israeli people who have suffered from the rocket attacks but its better to remove the reason for conflict rather than return the favour to the wrong people and lay waste to innocent people in another country. They are similar attitudes to what many people felt in Ireland and England in the 70’s and 80’s. In the end it was only when the attitudes matured after a spell of relative non-provocation on either side that sound strategy was employed. I know some will say that the reasons for conflict will never be removed as long as Israel exists but keeping those people to a small minority and making local allies and supporting a strong Lebanon would make Israel a lot safer place as opposed to fueling and adding to the numbers of those who will never accept the Israeli state.

What was it the IRA use to say, "Not one rusty bullet" but when the conditions where created for peace by the Irish and British governments backed up by the will of the people the extremists in the IRA decommissioned and they are now a manageable problem with cooperation north and south and from the UK.

The heavy handed collective punishment approach is an emotional and instinctive defensive reaction but not a well thought out and rational one. The more the British ruled with an iron fist and came down hard the stronger the IRA got and the more sympathy and support they got from the community. When the British realised that that approach wasn't working (they even secretly attempted to negotiate a deal with the IRA at the height of the troubles) they changed their approach and went down the diplomatic route and won hearts and minds. Thatcher’s hardliner approach done more to give support to the IRA than any success she might have had with her own policy. Hearts and minds is what eventually brings peace to any situation and bombing an enemy into submission only works against organised state armies, not covert terrorist organisations like Hezbollah and the IRA. Terrorist organizations thrive on perceived injustice and rely on a heavy handed approach from their enemy to maintain support to operate successfully. Without that support from sympathizers they cannot function. Of course Israel has a right to use intelligence (aparently mossad are supose to be the business but you would never guess it from recent events)to target and take out legitimate hostile targets and but they need a duel strategy for winning the hearts and minds of the Lebanese people and the Lebanese government if they ever wish to live in peace and security. Turning whole populations against you means those populations don’t cooperate with Israel and actively aid and swell the ranks of Hezbollah, unless you plan on wiping everyone out absolutely.

How big of a buffer zone does Israel want before it feels safe? 1 mile, 10 miles, 100 miles……..where there’s a will there’s a way. You have to remove the will of the majority to support or sympathise with the terrorists if you are ever to be truly safe from attack. Making a terrorist look like a freedom fighter is not a good strategy.(hence the cliche, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter) To cut support for Hezbollah you have to turn the percieved freedom fighter into a terrorist not the other way around. Unfortunately the bombing and destruction of Lebanon will only increase the will of the people to fight Israel. A charm offensive on the Syrians while been vigilant against any terrorist activity would be a sound strategy too, gaining support and sympathy from Syria to help cut down on terrorist activities. Often it is neccessary to swallow your pride and deal with those you dont like in order to win the peace.(winning the war is the easy part, winning the peace is what counts) It can only be done with Syria, Lebanon and Israel cooperating together and that will only happen if hearts and minds are won in all three countries. War crimes don’t win hearts and minds.

A bit less of "by deception thou shalt make thy war:" and a bit more of "by very visible means thou shall make it really obvious we want peace."

greyed

I agree, although it'd be hard to find someone here who doesnt, this kind of retaliation is not a means to an end.

Before reading that letter I had already made summary judgement of Israel as a evil, reckless, irresponsible nation. As always jumping to conclusions is a bad idea, I guess the recent media had gotten to me... Seeing as you obviously have connections with israel, carry, I would like to know what you think about the crisis? Also, I would be interested in thier account of the local history that you offered to post, if you could.

my opinion is now back in the hazey middleground, but is it not expected of a state army such as Israel's to have higher moral values and more rational objectives than groups like hezzbollah and should this not be reflected in their offensive? Their officials seem undisturbed by the large loss of life and essential infrastructure in lebanon.

Morlar

greyed wrote:

I agree, although it'd be hard to find someone here who doesnt, this kind of retaliation is not a means to an end.

In all honesty I wouldnt be too sure of that (no I am not trying to sound glib).

greyed wrote:

Before reading that letter I had already made summary judgement of Israel as a evil, reckless, irresponsible nation. As always jumping to conclusions is a bad idea, I guess the recent media had gotten to me...

I dont think being critical of israel is being guilty of making a summary judgement, or of jumping to conclusions or of being prey to an anti-israel media. I could be reading you wrong (along with the OP) as you have both registered in the last few days so its hard to get a handle on your posts. Apologies in advance if I am reading you wrong but i am 100% sure you will agree that not everyone who is disgusted and sickened by the ongoing israeli policies can be so easily dismmissed as saying that they are making summary judgements, falling for media mis-information or jumping to conclusions.

greyed wrote:

Seeing as you obviously have connections with israel, carry, I would like to know what you think about the crisis? Also, I would be interested in thier account of the local history that you offered to post, if you could.

My personal feeling on that would be that we have heard enough from israel in this forum and it would be more interesting and balanced to hear from the lebaneese side considering their suffering is massively greater in scale here and in fact israel are the cause of the suffering.

Carry

Below the missing part on history from the letter.

My connection to Israel is a very thin one. I know these people who wrote the letter because they were guests in my house here in Ireland last year and will come back next month for their holiday. I simply wrote them an email to get a first hand impression. I f I knew someone in some neighbouring Arab country I would have done the same.

I made my opinion on the whole conflict pretty clear in another thread, but that is a political opinion starting with the question if Israel had the right in the first place to claim a country and displace the people who lived there for centuries. On the other hand I support the claim of the Jews to have a place on their own. But not as they did and still do, that is aggressively.
Israel exists and won't go away. So we have to deal with it.

But I make a distinction between people and politics. I tend to listen to people, as I did while living in Belfast to both sides without betraying my general political opinion which is basicly on the side of the rebublican movement. Though I've learned a lot up North not to jump to conclusions about who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. Nothing is ever black and white. There are more than forty shades of grey in between.
Having never been before to a country (in my case Ireland), having all the knowledge from books and papers, paints your opinion of course. Going there to live and get to know things first hand can change everything. Well, almost.

I have never been to Israel, I never bothered to get deep into their history, so all my opionion in that case is a general one. And before last year I never met Israelis. I met lots of Jewish people alright. But they were living in Germany which is nothing to compare with Israel. I have been in Jordan and in Egypt, though. But this is another story.
Unfortunately I don't have any contacts to any Arab people. Otherwise I would have asked them, too, about their opinion and feelings.
Below is a link to the English site of the German magazine Der Spiegel with a report from Beirut from a woman living over there.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,428603,00.html

Letter from Israel continued:

Some background history (some of which you’ve probably already heard – but again, what you see depends on where you sit…..so maybe we see it a bit differently).

The problems didn’t start today, or yesterday, or in 2000 when Israel withdrew from it’s positions in southern Lebanon, or in 1982 when we entered Lebanon (in response to attacks on the north of Israel - similar to the ones experienced now, but by the PLO), nor even in 1975 when the heart of Lebanon was gutted by a particularly brutal civil war (between various Christian, Moslem sects, with the participation of the PLO and eventually Syria). But actually in a chain of events starting in 1967 when Syria got their fingers burned by attacking Israel in the 6 Day war and again in 1973 when they again learned that lesson in the Yom Kippur October 1973 war. As a result of these wars Syria realized that if it was to continue to support the struggle against the Israeli state – it would be “safer” to do so via a proxy. This proxy was Lebanon. The Syrian entry into Lebanon was achieved as a result of the Lebanese civil war which broke out in 1975, where the outcome of this war was formally sealed by the Riyadh Conference, followed by an Arab League meeting in Cairo in October 1976. Syria's presence in Lebanon was legitimized by the establishment of the Arab Deterrent Force (ADF) which consisted of 90% Syrian forces, under the command of the pro-Syrian President Ilyas Sarkis. The PLO basically got a free hand at this point to attack Israel from Lebanese soil, and the border between Israel and Lebanon, which up to this point had been our quietest and most peaceful border became the “hottest” one. In 1982 after we could finally no longer tolerate the shelling of Israeli towns in the north of the country by the PLO, Israel launched a strike into Lebanon to “clear the region” of the PLO.

The PLO was duly expelled from Lebanon, only to be replaced by the Hezbollah, a Shi’íte Moslem organization that is an offshoot of Iranian influence with strong Syrian ties. Both Iran and Hezbollah have made it very clear that their end game is the total annihilation of the Israeli entity as part of their vision of a fundamentalist Moslem middle east.

Anyway, this strike into Lebanon left Israel controlling the southern part of Lebanon adjacent to the Israeli border as we felt that this was the only way to ensure that our civilians wouldn’t be shelled from Lebanon. This however became a bloody quagmire that we sunk into and from which we finally extricated ourselves only in 2000 with the final withdrawal of all Israeli troops back to the international border as defined by the UN.

Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon was followed in 2004 by UN resolution 1559, which called for all foreign forces (That’s Syria) to withdraw from Lebanon, called for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias (read that as “Hezbollah”) and called for the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory. Of course the only thing that really happened was that Syria made a show of withdrawing it’s “overt” forces from the country.

So the Hezbollah remained in control of the south of the country where over the years and under the noses (literally under their noses, and sometimes even with the support and acquiesce) of the United Nations International Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) they built up a massive military presence along the entire length of the border with Israel. From here they continued to attack Israel on a periodic basis – so we were effectively back where we started!

In a number of attacks, soldiers were killed or kidnapped and in each case Israel’s policy was to make a token retaliation and then get into a negotiation on the release of our kidnapped soldiers in return for release of captured Lebanese or Palestinian terrorists sitting in Israeli jails. The “price” for these negotiations obviously increased to absurd proportions (1000 terrorists in exchange for the bodies of 3 Israeli soldiers kidnapped and murdered was the most recent “exchange rate”). In this latest incident two weeks ago, Hezbollah finally overdid it by launching a premeditated attack across the internationally recognized border, kidnapping soldiers from our territory accompanied by a simultaneous barrage of missile attacks on civilian targets. At this point Israel decided that the rules of the game need to change – and attacked back.

This by the way, is one of the reasons that so many (read that as all) of the other Arab nations in the region have made it clear that they do not support Hezbollah and it’s behaviour – at least not in this specific case. Apart form the usual lip service - it is very clear from the lack of real support by the other Arab and Moslem countries for Hezbollah, that the current crisis is a clear case where we had no option but to respond the way we did.

That’s where we are today - so much for the history.

Morlar

I dont find anything insightful or 'personalising' or useful about that - it reads to me like an average one-sided, selective, qualified account of the regions recent past that might just as well have been compiled from IDF press releases or from pro-israel media lobby groups. imo.

Carry

Morlar wrote:

I dont find anything insightful or 'personalising' or useful about that ...

I agree. That's why I cut it easily out in the first posting. And I am aware that this part of the letter is strongly biased and not in the least helpful.
But what do you expect?

The own history is always seen from the point of view that is given to you - and puts you in a better light. It's always subjective, it's almost impossible to see yourself, being part of that history, in a neutral and objective light. Look how the Irish in general see their own history: all heroes who fought the arrogant Brits ...

And don't get me started about the Germans ... :rolleyes:

Morlar

Carry wrote:

And I am aware that this part of the letter is strongly biased and not in the least helpful.
But what do you expect?

I'd expect that for something like that to contribute to the discussion and be worth posting it should be insightful/unbiased & informative.

Otherwise its just repeating the same old monotonous drone of pro-israel pro-idf propaganda and an often repeated, selective account of the regions history from an exclusively pro israeli perspective (wrapped up in a 'personal letter' - which in this case is an inaccurate description of the contents).

banaman

"In a number of attacks, soldiers were killed or kidnapped and in each case Israel’s policy was to make a token retaliation and then get into a negotiation on the release of our kidnapped soldiers in return for release of captured Lebanese or Palestinian terrorists sitting in Israeli jails."
TOKEN RETALIATION???
What planet is this person on?
I suggest you research the activities of the IDF(sic) in the "occupied territories" and the lot of the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip and elsewhere.
I include these links for starters:-

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp
http://www.btselem.org/english/firearms/20060712_Family_killed_in_Gaza_Shelling.asp
http://www.btselem.org/English/OTA/
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0725-35.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0725-27.htm
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10650

I feel for those on both sides because the only answer/hope is that both sides come together and open realistic and honest dialogue with each other.

adonis

i think there are some good points raised here.
i.e the fact that evacuation of israelis from the north of Israel has not been broadly covered in the media.

banaman

Its a long and reasoned article by a guy who was in the IDF and is a respected commentator on Israeli society.
http://www.counterpunch.com/

greyed

Thanks Carry, although severly biased, the extract was at least a useful chronology.

In all honesty I wouldnt be too sure of that (no I am not trying to sound glib).

heh, your right. What I meant was that to the unbiased observer, the current path does not lead to peace and only succeeds in perpetuating hatred on both sides. I realise that that is a fairly simplistic, rosey and almost naive statement as generations of hatred are not easily purged. Having somewhat stronger feelings about the political situation in the north, I understand this(dont take that the wrong way, im not a big RA head:rolleyes:, and I in no way condone hostilities on either side or harbour the hate I refer to)

I dont think being critical fo israel is being guilty of making a summary judgement, or of jumping to conclusions or of being prey to an anti-israel medai. I could be reading you wrong (along with the OP) as you have both registered in the last few days so its hard to get a handle on your posts. Apologies in advance if I am reading you wrong but i am 100% sure you will agree that not everyone who is disgusted and sickened by the ongoing israeli policies can be so easily dismmissed as saying that they are making summary judgements, falling for media mis-information or jumping to conclusions.

You read me a little wrong;) I dont beleive that everyone adverse to israel's current policies(which I agree are sickening) are simply mislead by an unbalanced media and are guilty of summary judgement. I was only referring to myself, as before carry's letter I had not read one report/account
from the Israeli side(bar a few sky reports from haifa) which I thought was a somewhat limited perspective

To offer yet another opinion(this time a more informed one:p), I feel stongly that a state controlled army such as the IDF should show more restraint and concern for civialian life and I find the US veto of a cease-fire dispicable and an irresponsible use of their political influence, but then again, should I expect anything different from the states...

the_syco

For some reason, everyone seems to think that Isreal shouldn't kill any civilains (even tho the enemy only stays in the middle of them), and that they should talk to the Lebanese. Not that it'd do any good, as the Lebanese isn't attacking them, some random terrorist group (since the early 50's and before) is attacking them.


Someone asked for "unbiased" info. Well, you won't get it. You'll either get info from Isreal, its allies, or Lebanon and their allies. Or Hezbollah. Except this time they have no allies. Strange that, since everyone there seems to hate Isreal. Could be because Hezbollah crossed the line.

That alone says alot.

Carry

Hey, don't shoot the messenger!

I asked the only people I actually have any contact whatsoever with in the middle east how they feel about it. And I just posted their answer as it is. I only left out the "personal things", like sharing a pint when they are over here and hopefully not hanging on on their mobiles to get bad news from Jerusalem while in lovely County Clare. They are people after all.

I still try to figure out how to answer this letter. I didn't expect such an elaborate letter and certainly not such an opinion which is contrary to all my political believes.
I'm torn. I like the writers of this letter. I get on with them very well. They are interesting people. But they are apparantly on the other side of all my political believes.

That's a real challenge for all our mouthfulls of democracy. Can you really appreciate the opinion of someone who doesn't share your own opinion? Get into a discourse without condemning them?

I don't know. But I'll try.
Remember Rosa Luxemburg.

Morlar

greyed wrote:

To offer yet another opinion(this time a more informed one:p), I feel stongly that a state controlled army such as the IDF should show more restraint and concern for civialian life and I find the US veto of a cease-fire dispicable and an irresponsible use of their political influence, but then again, should I expect anything different from the states...

Couldnt agree with you more on that one. Nicely put.

Carry

... a state controlled army ...

I'd rather call it an army controlled state ...