Tournament exit--analysis welcome

connie147

Team tourney in Waterford..One of our team members makes his exit and the hand has been the subject of discussion with various viewpoits so I said id post it on boards for opinions.
Starting stack--6000. blind levels--30mins(all blinds included).3rd blind level(75-150).hero on BB withAh-Kh Stack of 6,200.5 limpers into his BB,he raises to 900 PF. 2 callers. MP1 (6,500) calls as does MP2 (8,000)(from play so far,hero considers MP1 a muppet and MP2 a decent player).all else fold.
Flop comes Kd-Qc-7d. Hero bets out 2,500, MP1 calls,MP2 folds. Hero has noted that in previous 30 mins,MP1 has called down two opponents , in 2 seperate pots, to the river with 2nd pair and lost chips in both. Turn card is 9h,Hero puts MP! on either A-Q or flush draw,and goes all in for his remaining 2,900. MP! calls with 10-Jo.Drawing dead on the river and hero is out.
Wouls boarsters please analize heros play,PF-after the flop and after the turn.

TheRock

Cant see an awful lot wrong, just one of those hands.
Hero's raise preflop was grand, either pick up 5BB or at least narrow the field.
MP1s call with 10Jo was dubious, but he was calling 750 into a 1650, so he was getting 2.2/1.
After the flop the 2500 bet was slightly less then the pot so not much wrong there. MP1 was open ended at this stage, so he was getting the right odds to call and he duely hit is 9.
The only question you could raise about hero's play is putting him on AQ, would he have just called in early with this? (10J or KQ would be more likely hands). MP1 did call the 2500 after the flop so he had to have something, and hero did push in all his chips with just TPTK on a board full of straights and flushes.:(
Small hand small pot, big hand big pot.;)

Hitman Actual

TheRock wrote:

After the flop the 2500 bet was slightly less then the pot so not much wrong there. MP1 was open ended at this stage, so he was getting the right odds to call and he duely hit is 9.

No, villains call is poor here, he's calling an almost pot-sized bet when he's about 4/1 to hit on the turn. And without correct implied odds if he does hit. A semi-bluff raise all-in by villlain on the flop would be much better. But like Connie says, he clearly is a bit of an idiot.

Anyway, the hand is tricky enough for hero with his stack size, imo. Pre-flop, I think a case could be made for just checking, and keeping the pot small oop (I'll probably get flamed for that!). But that's very passive, and tbh I'd say I raise here most of the time. 900 looks ok with the amount of limpers.

On the flop, maybe bet a bit less, but I dont think it makes much difference. Then the turn: I'm not convinced that pushing is the right move. I know villain has called people down in the past with second-best hands, but this bet is for practically all his chips, so will he really call with a flush draw, etc? The problem is, you dont want to give a free card to a FD either. But I'd have to be pretty sure that villain will call with a second-best hand to push here. Also, like the Rock says, I rule out AQ as well here; is he that passive pre-flop that he limps with AQ? So maybe hero should slow down and try to get to showdown.

Ollieboy

Ok, the raise is fine, nothing wrong with that, but the amount is a bit to big, 450 to 600 would have been fine and enough, 900 forces him to make a continution bet here and I would only raise that big with AA/KK and maybe QQ here, AK is only AK after the flop, so he's given himself very little chance of getting away from the hand if he misses the flop.

The bet on the flop is also fine, but again due to the size of the pot already its far to much at this stage of a tourney. I would rather bet 1200 into a smaller pot here.

When the muppet calls, he's got to be careful, this guy could have KQ here or J10.

Now these are hands I would have laydown preflop after our hero's raise, but early on people gamble and the muppet players are still around.

Now I hate and totally disagree with push on the turn, a check here or a 1200 bet, but pushing all in means you can only be called by a better hand and AK is not that strong on that flop.

Summary, got called my a muppet and than played the hand badly on a nasty flop.

The main thing in tourneys is to stay alive and only be pushing with big hands at this stage, also keeping pots small and building up your stack is the correct action.

5starpool

Ollieboy wrote:

Ok, the raise is fine, nothing wrong with that, but the amount is a bit to big, 450 to 600 would have been fine and enough, 900 forces him to make a continution bet here and I would only raise that big with AA/KK and maybe QQ here, AK is only AK after the flop, so he's given himself very little chance of getting away from the hand if he misses the flop.

I disagree with your raise size Ollie. 5 limpers will not be convinced to go away with a 3x or 4x raise from the BB. I would rather limp than do that. Personally I would have made it 900 or 1000, and tailored any potential need for a continuation bet depending on what players (if any) call the preflop raise.

It is hard to see how he could really have got away from the hand as it played out though.

Saying all this though AK is a hand that I am trying out different styles with but it still troubles me.

connie147

Whether the raise to 900 pf was right or not, as the pot played out,is there anybody thinks a push on the flop might stop the draws.With 3000 in the pot and just 5000 behind,I think we can be fairly sure that we are still ahead here on a draw heavy board and whereas muppets can call for a big portion of their stack to see a card, most of them will not put all their stack in on a draw(specially in a team event in the early stages).I think I would have pushed the flop but is that madness ?

5starpool

connie147 wrote:

I think I would have pushed the flop but is that madness ?

This is a valid line too connie especially if we are willing to get all the chips in anyhow, with a possibility of losing value from AQ, KJ but not sure how likely those hands would be to call a 3/4 pot bet though either. By the sounds of it though this guy ignores pot odds and would likely have called a shove.

Hitman Actual

The thing is, are you pushing the flop hoping to get called by a drawing hand (and have a 2/1 shot at a double-up), or pushing hoping to fold out drawing hands (and ensure your tournament survival)? If it's the second line, I dont think it's the right idea. I'd rather bet a decent amount that has a good chance of getting called by a draw, than overbet the pot madly and getting the draw to fold. But the tournament survivalists probably prefer the second line.

ZZR1100

Ollieboy wrote:

Ok, the raise is fine, nothing wrong with that, but the amount is a bit to big, 450 to 600 would have been fine and enough, 900 forces him to make a continution bet here and I would only raise that big with AA/KK and maybe QQ here, AK is only AK after the flop, so he's given himself very little chance of getting away from the hand if he misses the flop.

The bet on the flop is also fine, but again due to the size of the pot already its far to much at this stage of a tourney. I would rather bet 1200 into a smaller pot here.

When the muppet calls, he's got to be careful, this guy could have KQ here or J10.

Now these are hands I would have laydown preflop after our hero's raise, but early on people gamble and the muppet players are still around.

Now I hate and totally disagree with push on the turn, a check here or a 1200 bet, but pushing all in means you can only be called by a better hand and AK is not that strong on that flop.

Summary, got called my a muppet and than played the hand badly on a nasty flop.

The main thing in tourneys is to stay alive and only be pushing with big hands at this stage, also keeping pots small and building up your stack is the correct action.[/QUOTE]

i have to aggree with ollieboy here and a push on the flop with TPTK is a receipe for disaster if you are to survive in a tourney (especially a team event tourney).Yes u will get the draws to go away but u will be called by a better hand and then you are out.Its not as if the blinds are big and our stack is low.we started out with 6K and that happend on lvl 3.no need to marry any hand .